So, basically, the 'simplification' of ticket categories recently means that the 'Saver', which implies a lower-priced ticket, is now called 'Off-Peak', which implies that it can't be used at 'Peak' times. Yet some 'Off-Peak' tickets can be used at times which most people would assume are 'Peak', to the extent that not only are passegers confused, but also ticket office staff. The winners are the train companies who collect the extra fares from unwitting passengers being sold more expensive tickets than necessary, and the losers are the public, is that right? Well done ATOC.
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Refused a valid ticket by booking office staff!
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Quite!
I would go with ticket names such as:
"Ordinary Single/Return" or "Single/Return"* if there's no time restriction on the flow and it is the only ticket available (get rid of any daft 'not before 04.41' type conditions)
"Peak Single/Return" for an Anytime (Open) Return
"Off-Peak Single/Return" for an Off-Peak (CD/Saver)
"Restricted Single/Return" for Super Off-Peak and other non-standard tickets
"Fixed Train Advance" for Advance tickets
For both the 'Ordinary' and the 'Peak' tickets state on them 'Valid any train/time'.
For both 'Off-Peak' and 'Restricted' tickets the exact time restrictions at which the ticket can be used should be printed on the front of the ticket, or with an attached card. If there's still not enough space to explain the restrictions then make them simpler, because neither the customer or quite possibly the staff will understand them.
F
* now there's simplification in action!
I would go with ticket names such as:
"Ordinary Single/Return" or "Single/Return"* if there's no time restriction on the flow and it is the only ticket available (get rid of any daft 'not before 04.41' type conditions)
"Peak Single/Return" for an Anytime (Open) Return
"Off-Peak Single/Return" for an Off-Peak (CD/Saver)
"Restricted Single/Return" for Super Off-Peak and other non-standard tickets
"Fixed Train Advance" for Advance tickets
For both the 'Ordinary' and the 'Peak' tickets state on them 'Valid any train/time'.
For both 'Off-Peak' and 'Restricted' tickets the exact time restrictions at which the ticket can be used should be printed on the front of the ticket, or with an attached card. If there's still not enough space to explain the restrictions then make them simpler, because neither the customer or quite possibly the staff will understand them.
F
* now there's simplification in action!
Multiple Unit
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Simmler thing happend to me the other day Journey Planner gave me the fare frm Liverpool South Park Way as £8.50 from there to Ruabon but Member of Virgin Ticket office Staff said he couldn't Issue it something to do with 3 Xs on the screen the Jouney Palnner said it was Valid Via Warrington but he says other wise.
\Should I have asked for a Print out of the screen and Implied that the Customer is always right.
\Should I have asked for a Print out of the screen and Implied that the Customer is always right.
Multiple Unit
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He refused to issue it so I Went to the other station and got it there non of the Guards had a problem with it and still got my WSMR Ride.
London_Midland
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Daimler,
Just to give you an update, the local manager popped down to Hemel today to look into your issue. I think the 'via Swindon' restriction is what confused matters, since that does give Paddington time restrictions. There were possibly some network knowledge issues with the individual concerned. We have, however, reissued the note reminding our people that they shoudl sell any ticket requested at any time; their responsibility is simply to tell you the restrictions (and I apologise that they were the incorrect ones in this case).
David.
Just to give you an update, the local manager popped down to Hemel today to look into your issue. I think the 'via Swindon' restriction is what confused matters, since that does give Paddington time restrictions. There were possibly some network knowledge issues with the individual concerned. We have, however, reissued the note reminding our people that they shoudl sell any ticket requested at any time; their responsibility is simply to tell you the restrictions (and I apologise that they were the incorrect ones in this case).
David.
Ivo
Established Member
I'm just trying to imagine a TOC operated by one of the "big three" (i.e. First/Arriva/Stagecoach) saying this...
In my experience, even the big companies can do the same thing. Vodafone and Orange regularly deal with customer issues on forums, for example.
More businesses are realising that they have to have take the net seriously, and are investing time and money in things like forums or social media.
But, let's not detract from the fact that LM has done an excellent job in this case. Well done!
More businesses are realising that they have to have take the net seriously, and are investing time and money in things like forums or social media.
But, let's not detract from the fact that LM has done an excellent job in this case. Well done!
Daimler
Member
Indeed, it's welcoming to see companies actually doing this.
Thanks to David for having taken the trouble to register and letting us know that London Midland were aware and were sorting it out.
It really is appreciated, and restores faith in the TOC!
Interesting that you consider these to be the 'big three'. According to their website, Govia (including LM) are the UK's busiest train operator with nearly 30% of passenger journeys.
Agree, well done to them in their positive response.
Multiple Unit
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In my case I think I upset the chap behind the desk beuse I had the print out of the route the Journey planner gave me I guss he didn't like that.
gordonthemoron
Established Member
well, you could alwys buy the ticket online and do him out of a job, he'd like that even less
I don't think it's fair to blame the individual concerned. If training at ex-Silverlink stations is anything like the training that was doled out at CT, it will be the astonishingly crap training that is to blame. You can't expect an individual to do well if they're not even given a decent basic training.
While there's somebody from LM around, can you tell your staff not to deface tickets please? Admittedly I've not known it happen with LM staff, but there's no harm in pre-empting these things. I've encountered staff from other TOCs that seem to think they can sell you a ticket, then before they hand it over, make up some completely ficticious restriction (like "only valid ex-1530 BHM") and write it on your ticket. I don't see that they have any business doing this and it really irritates me - if I want to roam around Birmingham for five hours before getting on a train, I'll damn well do so, ticket office staff have no business trying to force you to take a certain train. Luckily I've always found the guards have enough sense to ignore this graffiti though.
Multiple Unit
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One guard worte on my ticket NOT VAILID OFF ROUTE in marker Pen and It was a more accessable route for me and my Disabilty with walking and getitng up and down stairs tried to explain but wouldn't have it he got the PCSOs at the Staion I was getting off at to change trains but they seemed ok with it but had to buy another ticket though.
Its theese Jobs worths that have heart attacks and all kinds of helath problems in the end and are the ones that have not been on the Railway 5 minutes.
Its theese Jobs worths that have heart attacks and all kinds of helath problems in the end and are the ones that have not been on the Railway 5 minutes.
First class
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EDIT: They ARE NOT jobsworths. They are doing their job correctly. Just because you have a disability does not give you free reign to go any route you like with a possibly cheaper ticket. That discriminates against the mast majority of passengers paying a higher price for the same journey/route.
You are travelling an invalid route deliberately! Now, why do you think you shouldn't have been charged? It may be an easier way for you, but no special conditions exist letting you go any way you feel if you've got a disability.
Also, if true, the fact that he requested PCSOs to get of the train with you (if I've read that right), suggests that you were being a little arrogant with him, maybe refusing to pay or being mouthy?? I don't know what exactly happened - I can only go by situations in which I'd get police assistance.
Regardless of your reasons why- you don't have any authorisation.
If you have a disability you need to contact the TOC Customer Service Dept and ask for a letter/solution. On proof of disability being sent to them, they usually, (subject to evidence being provided), arrange for "alternative transport" being arranged between the previous accessible station on the line, and the one you want to alight at. That way you're fully legit and won't be charged anything extra. Get a copy of the Disabled Persons Protection Policy and read that for further info.
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gordonthemoron
Established Member
surely the restriction would be preprinted on the ticket? Why the need for the marker pen?
How accessible is the 'normal' route? I think that the TOCs could be in trouble over the DDA if they do not allow accessible routes to be used. I recall a case somewhere in the NXEA area (I think it was when it was one or even before that) where a customer wanted a footbridge to be built to avoid doubling back (which was invalid but acceptable to comply with the DDA). The TOC said if he didn't want to travel a very long way they'd pay for taxis in exchange for the rail fare I seem to recall.
First class
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No, most probably he has bought a ticket marked 'Any Permitted'.
He has then travelled a route that is Not Permitted, (according to the ATOC Routeing Guide).
One of the posters journeys was Birkenhead-Warrington, (valid only via Liverpool), when he was travelling via Chester.
The guard on the Chester-Warrington train could have charged him for a new ticket.
My thoughts are that this user is not registered as disabled, or is not disadvantaged enough to be considered, so as he would have a free travel pass between Birkenhead & Chester anyway. In which case, the TOC doesn't actually have to do anything.
As for Yorkie's post, no, the TOC is not breaching the DDA, because they usually offer "alternative transport" to genuine cases, therefore providing disabled people with (usually much better) access to a station at no extra cost or disadvantage.
If they only make reasonable adjustments for 'registered disabled' or those with free travel passes then they certainly are breaching the DDA.
(There is no mention I can see of these requirements in Merseytravel's documents - they claim 'Only one hour's notice is required' to arrange assisted travel)
First class
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However, if he has no proof of disability, or is not registered disabled, (which would happen if your doctor thought you were), then legally he may not be classed as "disabled".
You can't just call yourself "disabled" because you think of yourself as such. If you are disabled, (any disability), YOU have the option to do so. If you choose not to, then you're effectively withdrawing from the only means of evidence you can supply.
The Disabled Railcard has conditions on "how disabled" you must be before you qualify. Why is that not discrimination?
Im not disabled, but what you are implying is that I could ring a TOC Customer Service Dept up and say that I was, and that I wanted alternative transport/permission to use a not-permitted route. You expect a TOC to provide that without any evidence? That is not "reasonable".
No, he would legally be classed as disabled as long as 'he has a physical or mental impairment which has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on his ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.'. Being registered as disabled is 'conclusive proof' of the disability, but does not mean that you aren't disabled without it.
Yes, the law is only broken if he is actually disabled, however that would ultimately be for a court to decide.
Judging other people's disabilities is a difficult game to play. And when the alternative is one that costs nothing to implement, I don't really see the point.
I've never tried booking assisted passage for anyone on the trains, but at Manchester Airport and Gatwick they have never asked for any sort of proof.
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Assisted passage usually means helping on/off at no cost, as it is "reasonable".
Multiple Unit wants permission to use his ticket any route he deems best... there is some cost to the TOC, it would get more expensive (or at least more difficult) across multiple TOCs though. So may not be "reasonable".
Also, if he did want alternative transport provided instead, there again, is going to be some (perhaps) considerable cost in this.
My main point, however, is that you cannot simply do as you please because you consider yourself to be disabled. Contact the TOC Customer Service Dept and see what they can do for you. However, I am pretty sure if you are genuine they will offer you "alternative transport" only as follows:
Say, for example, I am unable to walk up stairs.
I travel from Walton Merseyside (steps) to Liverpool Central (accessible).
You would have to buy a ticket from Walton to Liverpool Central. You would be given alternative transport, usually taxi, between Walton and Kirkdale. You are then able to use the train from Kirkdale to Liverpool.
I seriously doubt that you will be able to use a route not permitted with your ticket, as ATOC has to investigate this and would probably mean a big change to the NRCoC.
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FCC offers the ability for people to travel from Hatfield to Potters Bar and 'turn back' to go north, or go north to WGC and 'turn back' to alight at Hatfield - both without needing to use the bridge.
I am not sure what proof they require that you're disabled. At Potters Bar, it's easy to swap without leaving (and therefore, you're unlikely to sneak out having lied that you're doing this because you can't cross the bridge), but the same doesn't apply at WGC where it could easily be abused - although I'd reckon the RPIs will soon get to recognise you if you did it more than a few times.
I am not sure what proof they require that you're disabled. At Potters Bar, it's easy to swap without leaving (and therefore, you're unlikely to sneak out having lied that you're doing this because you can't cross the bridge), but the same doesn't apply at WGC where it could easily be abused - although I'd reckon the RPIs will soon get to recognise you if you did it more than a few times.
I am sure they will be happy for disabled people who wish to be independent to take longer routes, rather than paying for an expensive taxi!
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I doubt it: example:
Say I get a Birkenhead-Warrington ticket, (only valid via Liverpool). Because my disability makes me scared to be underground I prefer to use Chester.
Arriva Trains Wales gets no revenue from this ticket as the ticket has no validity on them. They would have no obligation to get the passenger a taxi, unless he had a ticket that was valid there on that route.
Merseyrail doesn't have to get him an expensive taxi either because he shouldn't of been down in Chester in the first place.
Merseyrail would have to get me a taxi from Birkenhead to Liverpool Lime Street when going via a permitted route.
In the case of airports, it involves having a member of staff available, who meets the person at check-in, loads them and their luggage onto a cart and drives them to the boarding point. That is not done at no cost.
There is no actual cost in doing this. If one TOC demands compensation from another for allowing this, then that's a separate matter.
Courts have said that putting on taxis is a reasonable adjustment, do you really think that they would say that allowing a slightly longer route isn't?
I have seen reports of this being done from several years ago, it seems to be a common-sense approach.
Is that a deliberate attempt to be demeaning?
Actually, it does.
What would the arrangements be at the other end? A taxi from Warrington Central to Bank Quay? Who would pay for that?
First class
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No, but you said yourself, a TOC cannot decide what is a "disability". Under your logic, If I feel that I have a "condition" preventing me from travelling normally, I can call the shots and tell the TOC what I want, not what the TOC wants me to have, even if it is easier and more reasonable.
I am merely pointing out that it is very unreasonable for a TOC to assume that everyone contacting them for assistance is really in need of it.
I also take the view that the railways are already offering a massive service by even providing taxis. That surely is not a legal requirement (yet- possibly in 2013), (maybe a franchise one) as if you are in a wheelchair, you can't get a step entrance bus- it's tough luck, you find a different method.
I am not saying we shouldn't accommodate those with disabilities, but the TOC is already spending millions on taxis each year- for someone to turn around and say, "I want this technically invalid route option instead", I think it's starting to get silly.
I know people who have absolutely nothing wrong with them, who will happily turn up at a station and "demand" a taxi somewhere.
There are even a few "drug users" who "obtain" wheelchairs from somewhere, (when they are capable of walking), to obtain a 50% discount on their tickets.
Now, this is perfectly legal, as the terms of sale allow any "wheelchair user" remaining in their wheelchair to obtain a 50% discount. In my opinion, FRAUD, but unfortunately not so. What's stopping a business man paying £50 for his commute each morning into London simply hiring/buying a wheelchair and saving £25 each day? Over a working week year that's a £6500 saving! Don't forget, your "companion" also gets a 50% discount, so there's £13,000 lost revenue.
A lot of people on this forum like to think that the TOCs are taking advantage of you.
Add all the times people rip them off, (not just in ticketless travel), and it'll probably affect the TOCs more than you.
As for the taxi situation between Warrington Central/Bank Quay, why should anyone with a disability get a taxi, the journey planners tell you there is a walk, if you don't think your capable of that, choose a different route?!
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The "no revenue" argument has been banded about several times, and my response is always the same: it is irrelevant.
I'll give one of my usual examples to illustrate the point:-
A commuter from Huntingdon has a season ticket to London. This is routed Any Permitted. It does not matter to the customer who gets the revenue but according to what I've read in articles by the likes of Barry Doe, revenue is allocated by ORCATS, the details of which are an industry secret but it is "timetable driven" and slower trains get no revenue from it. There is no way to get from Huntingdon to London quicker by changing at Stevenage on any timetabled service. Therefore I conclude that this ticket, which has validity on East Coast, probably gains no revenue for East Coast.
This season ticket holder wishes to go out for a meal with friends in Peterborough after work. However in order to get from work (London) to the meal (Peterborough) quicker he gets a Huntingdon to Peterborough ticket at King's Cross, and boards a non-stop EC service. The train does not need to call at any intermediate station as per the NCoC.
A Huntingdon to Peterborough ticket has no validity on East Coast and East Coast gain no revenue from it. However the combination is valid on East Coast, regardless of revenue.
The validity of tickets is not determined by revenue and it is irrelevant to the customer who gains the revenue.
Any claims of "but this TOC doesn't get the revenue" are all utterly irrelevant, null and void.
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