Refused a valid ticket by booking office staff!

[Daimler]

Earlier this morning, I went down to my local station (Hemel Hempstead - managed by London Midland) to buy a ticket from Hemel Hempstead to Hanborough, returning on Friday. This ticket, an off-peak return, normally costs £24.90 with my Y-P Railcard. Off-peak tickets to Hanborough from Hemel Hempstead are valid at any time - including during the morning rush hour. The ticket is shown as valid on National Rail, First Great Western, East Coast and even London Midland's own booking engine.

However, despite this the member of staff refused to sell me the ticket, telling me that the first train I could use an off-peak ticket on was the 09:35. I tried to explain to her that off-peak tickets are valid at any time to Hanborough, and told her that I'd checked on National Rail to make sure before coming down, and they are certainly valid. Nonetheless, she refused to sell it to me, even saying that her computer screen greyed out any train before the 10:18 (presumably not the 09:35/50/10:05 as a result of connection times in London) - she briefly showed me the screen, and while I didn't pay much attention, there were greyed-out trains at the top, and only bold lower down the page. This is a journey I've made in the past, and the tickets have worked fine in any barriers. An anytime return is near on £50.00.

So, does this mean that the London Midland booking office computer program is consistently overcharging passengers who don't know better by not allowing valid tickets on their services? If so, what can we do about it?

Equally, I'd like to complain about not being able to travel when I wanted at the price I wanted - as a result, I'm going to get to my destination far later than otherwise, and miss things as a result. I've got the member of staff's name, but should I contact London Midland, ATOC, or Passenger Focus?

If I wasn't such a regular reader of the ticketing threads in these forums, I'd be shocked to discover that the rail companies are overcharging people in this way, but as it is...:roll:

 

[Pumbaa]

I don't know - but as a blanket rule the training LM staff receive is dire. They are, quite frankly, crap.

It could have been legitimately unavailable, but from past experiences with HH staff, and the frustrating inability to seemingly issue any ticket other than standard tickets to London, I always book over the internet and pick up on the day!

 

[Ferret]

Earlier this morning, I went down to my local station (Hemel Hempstead - managed by London Midland) to buy a ticket from Hemel Hempstead to Hanborough, returning on Friday. This ticket, an off-peak return, normally costs £24.90 with my Y-P Railcard. Off-peak tickets to Hanborough from Hemel Hempstead are valid at any time - including during the morning rush hour. The ticket is shown as valid on National Rail, First Great Western, East Coast and even London Midland's own booking engine.

However, despite this the member of staff refused to sell me the ticket, telling me that the first train I could use an off-peak ticket on was the 09:35. I tried to explain to her that off-peak tickets are valid at any time to Hanborough, and told her that I'd checked on National Rail to make sure before coming down, and they are certainly valid. Nonetheless, she refused to sell it to me, even saying that her computer screen greyed out any train before the 10:18 (presumably not the 09:35/50/10:05 as a result of connection times in London) - she briefly showed me the screen, and while I didn't pay much attention, there were greyed-out trains at the top, and only bold lower down the page. This is a journey I've made in the past, and the tickets have worked fine in any barriers. An anytime return is near on £50.00.

So, does this mean that the London Midland booking office computer program is consistently overcharging passengers who don't know better by not allowing valid tickets on their services? If so, what can we do about it?

Equally, I'd like to complain about not being able to travel when I wanted at the price I wanted - as a result, I'm going to get to my destination far later than otherwise, and miss things as a result. I've got the member of staff's name, but should I contact London Midland, ATOC, or Passenger Focus?

If I wasn't such a regular reader of the ticketing threads in these forums, I'd be shocked to discover that the rail companies are overcharging people in this way, but as it is...:roll:

In my Avantix, it shows restriction 4P - ticket is valid on trains departing Padd between 0903-1650 and after 1801. Worth a chat to LM customer relations first, then PF if you don't get an adequate response.

 

[Zoe]

I thought if you asked for a specific ticket, they had to sell it to you. If you then went ahead and tried to use it on a train that had peak restrictions you'd end up at least with an excess to pay.

 

[radamfi]

In my Avantix, it shows restriction 4P - ticket is valid on trains departing Padd between 0903-1650 and after 1801. Worth a chat to LM customer relations first, then PF if you don't get an adequate response.

That is for services via Swindon. Outward travel via Oxford is valid on any train.

 

[Ferret]

That is for services via Swindon. Outward travel via Oxford is valid on any train.

Ah yes, just scrolled down and found that now. Not that it makes a huge difference - the OP was still in the right anyway!!!!

 

[NSEFAN]

"Off-peak" is misleading. It doesn't really mean off-peak at all!

This has happened to me at my local station, where an off-peak ticket has been valid for travel during 'peak' times. The guy insisted that I had to buy an anytime fare, so I got him to check it on the National Rail webiste. Only then did he believe me.

He must have known all along that an off-peak fare was available, as he was able to issue it with no problems at all. In the OP's case, the greyed-out area of the screen implies that the software is glitched, or else the shading out is some sort of reminder to staff, but still allowing the ticket to be issued. There's a big difference between not being able to issue the ticket and simply refusing to issue it.

If they couldn't issue the fare, then LM will need to fix it ASAP. If they simply refused, perhaps they should train their staff better.

 

[Ferret]

"Off-peak" is misleading. It doesn't really mean off-peak at all!

This has happened to me at my local station, where an off-peak ticket has been valid for travel during 'peak' times. The guy insisted that I had to buy an anytime fare, so I got him to check it on the National Rail webiste. Only then did he believe me.

He must have known all along that an off-peak fare was available, as he was able to issue it with no problems at all. In the OP's case, the greyed-out area of the screen implies that the software is glitched, or else the shading out is some sort of reminder to staff, but still allowing the ticket to be issued. There's a big difference between not being able to issue the ticket and simply refusing to issue it.

If they couldn't issue the fare, then LM will need to fix it ASAP. If they simply refused, perhaps they should train their staff better.

Absolutely - there's loads of off peak tickets that are valid any time - especially for longer journeys. Sounds like a staff training issue to me

 

[Mojo]

Make sure you complain to London Midland and get your money back. I complained to Virgin after I was mis-sold a ticket by the travel centre at Birmingham New Street in December last year. On Saturday I recieved a refund of £34; the difference between the ticket I was sold and the ticket I should have been sold (£4) plus £30 compensation.

 

[theblackwatch]

Persnally, I'd write a polite e-mail to London Midland's Customer Services about it, with a 'cc' to ATOC. It may be worth mentioning the comment made that "Off-peak" is misleading. It doesn't really mean off-peak at all! and saying that if staff cannot even understand things, then the so-called 'simplification' of the fares structure hasn't worked.

 

[yorkie]

If someone cannot be bothered to look up a restriction code then there are thousands of people out of work who will be willing!

or do they want to be replaced with machines ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

However, despite this the member of staff refused to sell me the ticket, telling me that the first train I could use an off-peak ticket on was the 09:35. I tried to explain to her that off-peak tickets are valid at any time to Hanborough, and told her that I'd checked on National Rail to make sure before coming down, and they are certainly valid. Nonetheless, she refused to sell it to me, even saying that her computer screen greyed out any train before the 10:18 (presumably not the 09:35/50/10:05 as a result of connection times in London) - she briefly showed me the screen, and while I didn't pay much attention, there were greyed-out trains at the top, and only bold lower down the page. This is a journey I've made in the past, and the tickets have worked fine in any barriers. An anytime return is near on £50.00.

Next time say:
"What is the restriction code for this ticket please?"
"Can you read out what the restriction text says for that code please?"

So, does this mean that the London Midland booking office computer program is consistently overcharging passengers who don't know better by not allowing valid tickets on their services? If so, what can we do about it?

Yep, and write to LM and PF but not much will be done about it I suspect. But it's worth a go, and keep complaining if they don't fix it.

Equally, I'd like to complain about not being able to travel when I wanted at the price I wanted - as a result, I'm going to get to my destination far later than otherwise, and miss things as a result. I've got the member of staff's name, but should I contact London Midland, ATOC, or Passenger Focus?

LM first then ATOC and PF

If I wasn't such a regular reader of the ticketing threads in these forums, I'd be shocked to discover that the rail companies are overcharging people in this way, but as it is...:roll:

I'm not at all shocked. I suspect £millions are overcharged every year. This is fraudulently obtained by the TOCs due to a failure of the system, the managers have knowledge that overcharging takes place so they are knowingly permitting the fraud to take place (I am not accusing individual sales staff of fraud, this is company-wide fraud).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Persnally, I'd write a polite e-mail to London Midland's Customer Services about it, with a 'cc' to ATOC. It may be worth mentioning the comment made that "Off-peak" is misleading. It doesn't really mean off-peak at all! and saying that if staff cannot even understand things, then the so-called 'simplification' of the fares structure hasn't worked.

Agreed. No-one should ever be excessed when using tickets with complicated restrictions as they should not be expected to adhere to a system that staff cannot understand.

 

[clagmonster]

For your outward journey, the ticket would be valid on any train Hemel-Euston, and if travelling via Oxford, any train from there onwards as well. If travelling via Swindon, you have to depart Paddington between 09:03-16:50 or after 18:01. For referance, the return portion is valid on trains departing Hanborough at or after 07:45.
The restriction the booking clerk seems to have got muddles up with is the restriction on the saver return from Hemel to Euston, for which the outward portion is valid from 09:30. I suppose they will sell more of these tickets, so it is an easy mistake to make.
As you seem to have followed the booking clerks incorrect advice, I would advise you to write to London Midland claiming for the delay caused to you by the booking clerk mis-selling the ticket.

 

[London_Midland]

Daimler - we're looking into this to see what happened. Obviously if the ticket is valid we should have sold it to you. Thanks for raising it.

Notwithstanding the comments already made on this subject, there are obviously a number of tickets that are rarely requested, and I can't promise that mistakes won't be made from time to time; none of us is perfect. However, please continue to raise any issues you encounter with London Midland and we'll try and rectify them as quickly as possible.

David.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm sure I speak for everyone in thanking David from London Midland for his proactive approach responding to this. It is good to see that the comments are being dealt with in the right way, and certainly gives a good impression of the company. I would like to think it also shows that this forum is taken seriously within the industry.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure I speak for everyone in thanking David from London Midland for his proactive approach responding to this. It is good to see that the comments are being dealt with in the right way, and certainly gives a good impression of the company. I would like to think it also shows that this forum is taken seriously within the industry.

Agreed!

...not much will be done about it I suspect...

David - please prove this pessimistic prediction by me to be wrong!

 

[Lucky63]

Next time say:
"What is the restriction code for this ticket please?"
"Can you read out what the restriction text says for that code please?"

I would be delighted if somebody asked me something like that. Instead i get people asking me for the bus times for towns over 150 miles away.

 

[yorkie]

I would be delighted if somebody asked me something like that. Instead i get people asking me for the bus times for towns over 150 miles away.

I hope they give you access to the Transport Direct website

 

[Daimler]

I thought if you asked for a specific ticket, they had to sell it to you. If you then went ahead and tried to use it on a train that had peak restrictions you'd end up at least with an excess to pay.

The member of staff in question could see the barriers though (Hemel's concourse is small) and so would have prevented me from going through. In the end, I just went home and went back to the station for an off-peak train - meaning I missed some fairly important things I wanted to do.

"Off-peak" is misleading. It doesn't really mean off-peak at all!

This has happened to me at my local station, where an off-peak ticket has been valid for travel during 'peak' times. The guy insisted that I had to buy an anytime fare, so I got him to check it on the National Rail webiste. Only then did he believe me.

He must have known all along that an off-peak fare was available, as he was able to issue it with no problems at all. In the OP's case, the greyed-out area of the screen implies that the software is glitched, or else the shading out is some sort of reminder to staff, but still allowing the ticket to be issued. There's a big difference between not being able to issue the ticket and simply refusing to issue it.

If they couldn't issue the fare, then LM will need to fix it ASAP. If they simply refused, perhaps they should train their staff better.

Indeed - it's extremely misleading to call it off-peak.

I'm not at all shocked. I suspect £millions are overcharged every year. This is fraudulently obtained by the TOCs due to a failure of the system, the managers have knowledge that overcharging takes place so they are knowingly permitting the fraud to take place (I am not accusing individual sales staff of fraud, this is company-wide fraud).

I do wonder how many other destinations with 'off-peak' tickets valid at any time from Hemel Hempstead are prevented from being sold in the same way. I wonder if the machines are automatically programmed to reject any off-peak fares into London - even if valid - before 09:30.

I'm sure I speak for everyone in thanking David from London Midland for his proactive approach responding to this. It is good to see that the comments are being dealt with in the right way, and certainly gives a good impression of the company. I would like to think it also shows that this forum is taken seriously within the industry.

Absolutely!

Daimler - we're looking into this to see what happened. Obviously if the ticket is valid we should have sold it to you. Thanks for raising it.

Notwithstanding the comments already made on this subject, there are obviously a number of tickets that are rarely requested, and I can't promise that mistakes won't be made from time to time; none of us is perfect. However, please continue to raise any issues you encounter with London Midland and we'll try and rectify them as quickly as possible.

David.

Thanks, David - it does raise questions about the adequacy of the computer software behind ticket sales in general, when the online 'customer' booking engines are more reliable than those used in stations! However, it's great to see someone from a TOC replying in this way (and so promptly!). Thanks again!

Also thanks to everyone for their replies!

 

[yorkie]

Indeed - it's extremely misleading to call it off-peak.

Not really as it has restrictions; you can't call it anything else. I wouldn't argue against that otherwise TOCs will attempt to impose blanket peak bans which would be an effective fare rise on an exponential scale for many people.

Every off peak ticket has a validity restriction code and associated text to go with it. That must be read and interpreted.

The main problem I have is that some of the validity codes are too complex to understand, and there are too many of them. This is due to some TOCs introducing draconian restrictions (for example evening peak restrictions on some TOCs). Each doing their own thing and many of them claiming to be copying off each other.

I do wonder how many other destinations with 'off-peak' tickets valid at any time from Hemel Hempstead are prevented from being sold in the same way. I wonder if the machines are automatically programmed to reject any off-peak fares into London - even if valid - before 09:30.

I don't know how many will be prevented from being sold (hopefully none now....) but an Off Peak ticket from Hemel Hempstead to anywhere outside the London & South East area with validity via London is valid on any train between Hemel Hempstead and London and return.

 

[313103]

I think you will find that ALL the staff currently being used at Hemel are not your regular members of staff, and i will just leave it at that.

 

[yorkie]

I'm sure I'll go to Hemel Hempstead again one day, for a repeat of our cycle ride along disused lines from there to St Albans via Harpenden, Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield (before anyone asks, we got the train along the ECML to link the two lines). So when I do, I'll ask a question to put them to the test (as discussed in the other topic, no - not something obscure like rail and sail reservations but simply asking about the validity of a ticket that can easily be looked up) and report back.

 

[Daimler]

Not really as it has restrictions; you can't call it anything else. I wouldn't argue against that otherwise TOCs will attempt to impose blanket peak bans which would be an effective fare rise on an exponential scale for many people.

Every off peak ticket has a validity restriction code and associated text to go with it. That must be read and interpreted.

The main problem I have is that some of the validity codes are too complex to understand, and there are too many of them. This is due to some TOCs introducing draconian restrictions (for example evening peak restrictions on some TOCs). Each doing their own thing and many of them claiming to be copying off each other.

I was going to suggest that perhaps 'Unrestricted', 'Restricted', and 'Advance' would be more logical, but thinking about it I suppose 'off-peak' is generally what it means, if not always.

 

[Ferret]

Not really as it has restrictions; you can't call it anything else. I wouldn't argue against that otherwise TOCs will attempt to impose blanket peak bans which would be an effective fare rise on an exponential scale for many people.

Every off peak ticket has a validity restriction code and associated text to go with it. That must be read and interpreted.

It's just a mess, and it confuses staff just as much as it does passengers. There's a restriction code of 8A that seems quite popular for some off peak tickets - that means valid by any train I mean - what's that all about?!

Personally I'd like to see restrictions simplified, and judging by the amount of chat in the messrooms, I'm not alone. I'm not sure the current system benefits anyone - too many ticket staff don't understand restrictions and therefore aren't in a position to enforce them (which must cost the TOCs a fair bit of money), and some staff go too far the other way and enforce restrictions that don't exist! The current way is confusing for everyone!

 

[sheff1]

I was going to suggest that perhaps 'Unrestricted', 'Restricted', and 'Advance' would be more logical...

I agree. 'Off peak' is meaningless .... even when there is a 'peak' it differs depending what the journey is and, from what I have read on here, for some journeys 'Off peak' is all day.:cry:

 

[yorkie]

for some journeys 'Off peak' is all day.:cry:

But surely you don't want them to introduce peak restrictions for these journeys? :?

All Savers (Off Peak) tickets that did not go to/through London (and surrounding areas including Stevenage, Milton Keynes, Reading, etc) used to be unrestricted. It is only since privatisation that many operators have introduced restrictions and then in September 2008 changed the name to Off Peak. It's huge fare rises through the back door. The last thing we want is for the remaining ones that have their original validity to be given restrictions

 

[sheff1]

But surely you don't want them to introduce peak restrictions for these journeys? :?

Of course not ..... but 'Off Peak' implies that there are restrictions in some mythical 'peak', whereas 'Unrestricted' makes it clear there are no restrictions.

 

[Mojo]

With the removal of two different minimum fares for 1625 Railcards for Anytime and Off-peak tickets, is there any point in having unrestricted Off-peak tickets any more?

 

[John @ home]

With the removal of two different minimum fares for 1625 Railcards for Anytime and Off-peak tickets, is there any point in having unrestricted Off-peak tickets any more?

It has been suggested on this forum that the point is to have a higher fare to charge people who board the train without a ticket (except at an unstaffed halt etc.). I think I prefer that approach to the heavy-handed approach to Penalty Fares adopted by some other TOCs.

 

[jon0844]

If the off-peak ticket happens to be the only ticket, on account of there being no peak ticket for that route, then there should be no peak ticket available. Even selecting one on a machine, TVM or via the ticket office, would still issue the off-peak ticket.

Failing that, if there's no peak - then you could call it an anytime ticket but not increase the cost of it. Surely someone could manage to implement a proper simplification, without allowing increases at the same time? It just needs a proper regulator put in charge of the process.

 

[yorkie]

If the off-peak ticket happens to be the only ticket, on account of there being no peak ticket for that route, then there should be no peak ticket available. Even selecting one on a machine, TVM or via the ticket office, would still issue the off-peak ticket.

Failing that, if there's no peak - then you could call it an anytime ticket but not increase the cost of it. Surely someone could manage to implement a proper simplification, without allowing increases at the same time? It just needs a proper regulator put in charge of the process.

There's no way the likes of East Coast are going to reduce their £112 Peterborough-York Anytime SOR return to £54.50 (the price of an unrestricted Off Peak SVR) because if someone on an Advance ticket gets the wrong train, they want to fine them (it is in reality a fine, whatever they call it and whatever the legal bull) £56 each way (Yes, more than the return for a single) or £112 return. It's effectively a Penalty Fare through the back door, and a hefty one at that.

If they were forced to rename Off Peak tickets that were not restricted then they would simply restrict the SVR forcing some people to pay £112 instead of £55.50 return!

3 years ago the prices were £47.00 for the SVR and £93.00 for the SOR. That's an increase of £8.50 and £19 at a time of near zero inflation!

The gap has got bigger, because they want to effectively fine people more.

At the time of simplification only 1 or 2 TOCs (including Northern) renamed SVRs as Anytimes to reflect their true meaning.

The others didn't, and won't follow suit.

London Midland's actions were quite poor, they introduced restrictions on the Savers when they became Off Peak, and introduced higher priced Anytime fares. An act which should be illegal, but sadly the so-called "protection" on fares isn't worth the paper it's written on as the TOCs use loopholes to defraud us.

The people who asked for simplification and then allowed the TOCs to get away with back door fare rises should hang their heads in shame.

If you ask for something like that you have to be very specific about what you ask for and have a framework in place to ensure the TOCs adhere to it. Otherwise they'll take the mickey!!