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Cross Country's capacity issues: how could they be solved?

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HSTEd

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My best guess using existing equipment would be see if Stadler can rapidly put together a custom bi-mode order with ~3000hp each on diesel and electric.

Then run them with shortened Mark 4 rakes.
 
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The Ham

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A lot had been said about trying to fit the XC services into New Street along with an EMU/electric loco and coaches.

However there could be another option, which could work.

Given that post HS2 the XC services have been suggested to be moved to Moor Street could this move be brought forwards (at least for the South Coast services).

In doing so there could be paths through New Street for the electric trains to/from Manchester. If these could be run to have a change from the Voyager services at stations like Leamington Spa, Coventry, or Birmingham International. This would, however, require an extra change, but for those going to Birmingham not much of a difference and those passing through no difference. However it could enable extra services to be run in pairs.

The South West/Manchester services appear to almost match (in terms of departure xx:31/following arrival xx:33) with a 17 minute sitting at the platform, so although they may take up a bit more space in terms of getting in and back out again, it's only one service an hour and there's still a little scope for turning the units around (although may need to make use of onboard cleaners to achieve this) even if they're a few minutes late.

It should free up 7 Voyagers to be able to run extra services.

Also be removing the Manchester leg of the South West services it could be argued that these services could be run by HST's without incurring too much of a time penalty (especially if they were 2+5 or 2+6).

Using the existing mark 3 coaches which XC have they look like that they have enough to run an hourly service to Paignton with 2+5 coaches (8 trains, which would require an extra 6 class 43's). However as they don't always run that far down chances are they could make it work with 2+6 coaches (7 trains, which would require them to convert 2 extra mark 3 coaches and have an extra 4 class 43's).

Although that would mean no more 8 coach HST's, it would allow quite a few more 8, 9 or 10 coach Voyagers as well as longer trains between Birmingham and Manchester.

Would there be any deal breakers in doing so?
 

The Ham

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I always wonder when I get no response to a question, does it mean that it's so stupid that it's not worth a reply?

Could sending Voyagers to Moor Street to allow electric trains run Manchester to the Midlands be a potential plan for improving XC? (For more details see above post).
 

JamesT

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I always wonder when I get no response to a question, does it mean that it's so stupid that it's not worth a reply?

Could sending Voyagers to Moor Street to allow electric trains run Manchester to the Midlands be a potential plan for improving XC? (For more details see above post).

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a stupid idea, but it is breaking the advantage of New Street as a hub for making changes at. HS2 will also do that, but they have plans for improving the connectivity between the two for transfers.
If you could do that first I'd say it might be a goer if there's going to be a significant lag before new stock might arrive.
 

takno

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I always wonder when I get no response to a question, does it mean that it's so stupid that it's not worth a reply?

Could sending Voyagers to Moor Street to allow electric trains run Manchester to the Midlands be a potential plan for improving XC? (For more details see above post).
It would take all the spare capacity at Moor Street, and given that it's currently a pretty horrible change to New Street it would heavily impact on dozens of interchanges people currently make at new Street. Most importantly though, it requires the moor st terminators to go via Coventry (for interchange at Coventry or international), and there isn't a line that does that.
 

The Ham

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It would take all the spare capacity at Moor Street, and given that it's currently a pretty horrible change to New Street it would heavily impact on dozens of interchanges people currently make at new Street. Most importantly though, it requires the moor st terminators to go via Coventry (for interchange at Coventry or international), and there isn't a line that does that.

Could the Moor Street terminators could go via Leamington Spa but not Coventry (it would mean switching routes between the Manchester/Newcastle services) with people changing trains at Leamington Spa to the electric trains.

It would end up with a service pattern of
- South West/Birmingham NS
- Bornemouth/Birmingham MS (not via Coventry)
- Reading/Newcastle (via Coventry & Birmingham NS)
- 2 x West Midlands to Manchester (at least one to Leamington Spa to connect with Bournemouth service)
 

takno

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Could the Moor Street terminators could go via Leamington Spa but not Coventry (it would mean switching routes between the Manchester/Newcastle services) with people changing trains at Leamington Spa to the electric trains.

It would end up with a service pattern of
- South West/Birmingham NS
- Bornemouth/Birmingham MS (not via Coventry)
- Reading/Newcastle (via Coventry & Birmingham NS)
- 2 x West Midlands to Manchester (at least one to Leamington Spa to connect with Bournemouth service)
Not unless somebody wired the line to Leamington spa while I wasn't looking. There also isn't the capacity down the Coventry to Leamington spa line, otherwise the cross countrys would both be going down it
 

quantinghome

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With East Midlands getting a new fleet the Class 222s will be looking for a new home. XC would seem to be the logical choice.
 

swt_passenger

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They are not compatible with 221 or 220's, unfortunatley. I still think HST's are the only option in the short term and maybe 221 from Virgin Trains if they replace the Voyagers.
HSTS aren’t compatible with 220/221, so there’s actually no need for 222s to be compatible either.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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HSTS aren’t compatible with 220/221, so there’s actually no need for 222s to be compatible either.

True. I suppose they could help provide additional services. However when the question of rolling stock was asked to the DfT back earlier in July and to CrossCountry this was their response:

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/demand-for-stored-hsts-to-alleviate-xc-overcrowding

Rail Minister Andrew Jones replied: “The Department is aware that additional capacity is needed on CrossCountry routes, including Oxford. The Department is working with the operator to introduce extra rolling stock into CrossCountry. This remains a priority for the Department as we consider successor franchise arrangements when the current franchise ends.”

However, sources within the rail industry suggest using HSTs is not a simple solution, as some believe.

One XC source told RAIL: “We cannot use the GWR power cars without the Automatic Train Protection being removed, as none of our drivers are trained on it. Until that changes, and the Direct Award is sorted out, there’ll be no change. We do need more stock, though!”

In his letter to Wright, Pithie writes: “The routes between Reading, Coventry, Birmingham and Derby are particularly affected, as are some services between Bristol and Birmingham. Using HSTs would replace four and five-coach trains with seven-coach trains, significantly increasing the available seats while also overcoming the weather-related reliability issues in the South West affecting passengers between Exeter, Newton Abbot, Plymouth and beyond.”

So there goes hope of using GWR's HST's.
 

sprinterguy

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True. I suppose they could help provide additional services.
Dedicate the 222s to the Edinburgh - Plymouth services and I don't see why there'd be a problem. That's about 21 diagrams, so the 27 class 222s would be a pretty good fit, allowing for a modicum of doubling up (Using the 4 x 4-car units) and a couple of maintenance spares. Though unfortunately that's not going to be a possibility until 2023 at the earliest.
 
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quantinghome

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They should be looking at doubling up pretty much all XC services. The Class 222s could be rearranged to form single 8-car and doubled 4+5car formations which would give a near-uniform capacity of around 400 standard and 60 first class seats. The same should be done for the class 220s/221s. There would need to be a few more trains to complete the timetable. Are West Coast holding on to their 221s?
 
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takno

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True. I suppose they could help provide additional services. However when the question of rolling stock was asked to the DfT back earlier in July and to CrossCountry this was their response:

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/demand-for-stored-hsts-to-alleviate-xc-overcrowding



So there goes hope of using GWR's HST's.
If it's just a case of removing the ATP gear, ScotRail are doing that at the minute for theirs so it's not exactly impossible, or costly compared to the automatic doors. I would guess that once you refurbed it all at least a bit and done necessary staff training then the costs aren't that much different, and the timescales would be similar. The choice then is between technically well-understood stock that's really old but still in wide fleet use and reasonably comfortable, against more oldish stuff that's a bad passenger experience, runs okay but is a bit a gas guzzler and has systems nobody will understand in 15 years. Personally I'd go with maybe 10 HSTs, and then aim to go to bi-modes within 5-10 years. Wouldn't surprise me if instead they decided to do neither and just let the current situation carry on
 

ainsworth74

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If it's just a case of removing the ATP gear, ScotRail are doing that at the minute for theirs so it's not exactly impossible, or costly compared to the automatic doors.

Agreed and to be quite honest it's the doors and the wider accessibility issues that rate against re-using GWR HSTs on XC rather than having to remove the ATP equipment.

Wonder if anyone has considered how practical it would be to fit the right voltage transfer into the luggage area of a HST power car so you could sandwich some Mk4s between them they're basically fully compliant and will very soon by off-lease in very large numbers! :lol:
 

takno

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Agreed and to be quite honest it's the doors and the wider accessibility issues that rate against re-using GWR HSTs on XC rather than having to remove the ATP equipment.

Wonder if anyone has considered how practical it would be to fit the right voltage transfer into the luggage area of a HST power car so you could sandwich some Mk4s between them they're basically fully compliant and will very soon by off-lease in very large numbers! :lol:
And for the other power car, a pantograph and transformer gear. Come on boffins, how hard can it be! 8-)
 

class 9

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Instead of converting Mark 3s to power doors, would it be easier to convert the ETS on HST power cars to 1000v and use Mark 4s??
 

Roavin

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I mean, many companies are ditching their HSTs which - being locos - have the possibility for much higher capacity than the 220/221s. They should try to buy some and sell off some of the 220/221s to increase it. The HSTs should also be used at peak times imo.
 

takno

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I mean, many companies are ditching their HSTs which - being locos - have the possibility for much higher capacity than the 220/221s. They should try to buy some and sell off some of the 220/221s to increase it. The HSTs should also be used at peak times imo.
Most XC trains run for at least 4 hours and often well over 6. Most of them will hit a peak somewhere. How would you allocate HSTs to the peaks?

There also isn't anything inherently better about them for capacity. You could almost certainly form the East Midlands units into longer trains, since you only lose a third of a coach of platform space at each end to cabs and safety-zone, whereas HST power cars are more than twice that. The East Midlands units would also be able to keep up with schedules because they essentially have as many engines as they do coaches, where HSTs over seven coaches start to really lose acceleration.

Don't get me wrong, I think the HSTs are a better solution for passenger comfort, delivery time and quite possibly fuel costs, but longer formations built from East Midlands stock would almost certainly have more capacity
 

sprinterguy

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I mean, many companies are ditching their HSTs which - being locos - have the possibility for much higher capacity than the 220/221s. They should try to buy some and sell off some of the 220/221s to increase it. The HSTs should also be used at peak times imo.
Technically speaking, Crosscountry don't own any of the 220s or 221s to sell them, nor is it likely that they would buy HSTs outright - They would lease them from the Rolling Stocking Owning Company (ROSCO) that owns them. There's a limit to how long Crosscountry HSTs can be before their poorer power to weight ratio impinges on schedules based around Voyager timings, though that doesn't have to be a show stopper: Even a 2+6 HST offers far greater capacity than a 4 car Voyager.

The existing Crosscountry HSTs are diagrammed such that they do serve some of Crosscountry's biggest markets during the peaks - Leeds or Birmingham primarily.
 
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The Ham

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What should have happened was that the Electric Spine should have allowed EMU's to run the NW to SE services and then have the SW to NW services stop short at Birmingham or only ever run to the NW.

That would have freed up several Voyagers, as well as allowing 8 coach 110mph EMU's to run through Birmingham to Manchester.

Unfortunately events overtook the plan.
 

takno

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What should have happened was that the Electric Spine should have allowed EMU's to run the NW to SE services and then have the SW to NW services stop short at Birmingham or only ever run to the NW.

That would have freed up several Voyagers, as well as allowing 8 coach 110mph EMU's to run through Birmingham to Manchester.

Unfortunately events overtook the plan.
I'd say it was more a lack of events that took over the plan!
 

Sweetjesus

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Is there a capacity for further rail service between Birmingham and Manchester either via Stoke-on-Trent or Crewe in WCML?

If so, one of LNWR services that currently terminate within West Midlands could be extended to Manchester using a stopping pattern much like current Birmingham New St to Crewe service - and the bonus is that it can replace one of local Northern services that currently terminate at Stoke or Crewe.

The main benefit is that LNWR has a superior rolling stock and presumably higher availability of train drivers and rolling stock.

During rush hour periods, it'll be heavily utilized within major conurbation only, not many will travel intercity, so any concerns about the train coming from Birmingham being full for Piccadilly commuters at Macclesfield station can be dismissed.

Throughout the day, leisure travellers and time insensitive travellers can use this service, so it won't be carrying a fresh air and it will reduce overcrowding on XC services.
 

4-SUB 4732

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One thing I do hope is that the stuff from the South Coast (the hourly Bournemouth and the hourly Soton / Reading) simply cut across Brum towards Wolverhampton without needing to reverse etc; and that stuff from the South West goes towards Derby. That way, all traffic from the SW-NE and vice-versa can just do a simple driver change and load up before keeping going.
 

Ianno87

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One thing I do hope is that the stuff from the South Coast (the hourly Bournemouth and the hourly Soton / Reading) simply cut across Brum towards Wolverhampton without needing to reverse etc; and that stuff from the South West goes towards Derby. That way, all traffic from the SW-NE and vice-versa can just do a simple driver change and load up before keeping going.

But if you're doing a driver change anyway, a reversal is no more complex than running straight through.
 

VT 390

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One thing I do hope is that the stuff from the South Coast (the hourly Bournemouth and the hourly Soton / Reading) simply cut across Brum towards Wolverhampton without needing to reverse etc; and that stuff from the South West goes towards Derby. That way, all traffic from the SW-NE and vice-versa can just do a simple driver change and load up before keeping going.
There is only one service each hour which has to reverse each hour anyway and that is the Reading to Newcastle services and those ones usually have plenty of time to do this, especially the northbound ones.
 
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