advance ticket - 2 questions

[truckman060473]

(1) is it a single or return? (referring to national rail enquiries price quote) (2) it says you have to travel on a particular train - so if you get on the correct one departing from origin point but make the train change different from the one it is giving you (showing quickest way to destination) does that render it invalid. e.g. on my week off, on Tues 23 Mar, there is an advance ticket from Carmarthen to Taunton for £9.50 (dead, dead cheap) and it leaves 11.04, says change at Newport at 13.03 for Taunton. what if i decided to change at Cardiff instead to get the 57 hauled train to Taunton? would this be a no-no because of the ticket restrictions?

 

[royaloak]

That is a single fare and you are tied to those 2 trains so no you can't do the loco hauled train.

You can catch it on the way back though at 1616 from Taunton for £9-50 so for £19 total you can have an hour and 20 minutes in Taunton, just do "advanced rearch" and click "show overtaken trains" and it shows them.

 

[truckman060473]

trying to find an off peak day return for this from either Swansea or Cardiff. done this last Sat to Swindon. Cmn to Swi = £41. Cmn to Swansea = £7.50 + Swansea to Swindon = approx £22, saving over a tenner. can't find an equivalent ticket Swansea or Cardiff to Taunton though.

 

[royaloak]

£19 return not cheap enough?

 

[Ivo]

Sorry to slightly derail - no pun intended of course! - this topic, but which Cardiff to Taunton trains are 57 hauled? I ask because I am yet to see one...

 

[royaloak]

Here you go-
http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/LOCOHAULED.htm

 

[truckman060473]

yes £19 is cheap enough but the point of my journey is maximum time on the loco service. i don't want a DMU down to Taunton even if it means i can get the 57's back. guess i'll just have to pay the extra.
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oh, just checked what is available for Wed 24th Mar. £9.50 + £9.50 for both directions riding the 57's Newport to Taunton and back to Newport. Carmarthen to Newport leg would be by DMU

 

[yorkie]

(1) is it a single or return? (referring to national rail enquiries price quote)

All advance fares are sold as singles. If you want to return, you need to buy a single there, and a single back.

(2) it says you have to travel on a particular train - so if you get on the correct one departing from origin point but make the train change different from the one it is giving you (showing quickest way to destination) does that render it invalid. e.g. on my week off, on Tues 23 Mar, there is an advance ticket from Carmarthen to Taunton for £9.50 (dead, dead cheap) and it leaves 11.04, says change at Newport at 13.03 for Taunton. what if i decided to change at Cardiff instead to get the 57 hauled train to Taunton? would this be a no-no because of the ticket restrictions?

It depends on the ticket. At the most basic level, an Advance ticket is for a simple 'A to B' journey and there is only one train. No debate there.

But if you have an "and connections" ticket, then it's not as simple as that. No-one is going to try to tie you to a specific train from Clapham Junction to Victoria, or from Cardiff Central to Queen Street, for example.

If you look up the exact itinerary and also check which trains are reservable and paste it here, we'll be able to give you a more definitive answer.

But in general the answer is, no you cannot get any train.

 

[Ivo]

On the subject of Advance interchanges, suppose you buy an Advance ticket from Brighton to Leicester. It is simply a matter of changing at St Pancras, either Luton station or Bedford. We all know that. Also assume that you are booked to travel on an EMT service from Luton to Leicester, and FCC before that. Is it permissible to join the EMT service at either St Pancras or Bedford, providing it is the same train?

 

[142094]

Would this be valid as well? For example, in the same situation, I want to go from Newcastle - Aberdeen, so I have an EC +connections ticket for the xx.05* off Newcastle to Edinburgh. However the xx.15* is direct to Aberdeen. I could change at Edinburgh, but could I change instead at Berwick (which would mean I had a better chance of catching my connection as I wouldn't have to get to a platform miles away?

*Just theoretic times, probably not the same in the timetable.

 

[truckman060473]

what if 1st train is late and the one your meant to be changing to has left? can you make your journey on the next service coming in even though this isn't the one your advance ticket says you are meant to be on?

 

[wintonian]

what if 1st train is late and the one your meant to be changing to has left? can you make your journey on the next service coming in even though this isn't the one your advance ticket says you are meant to be on?

AFAIK if you miss a connection due to your train being late the I belive you can use the next avalible service that is operated by the TOC stated on your ticket i.e. the one you would have traveld with if the first train wasn't late.

Would this be valid as well? For example, in the same situation, I want to go from Newcastle - Aberdeen, so I have an EC +connections ticket for the xx.05* off Newcastle to Edinburgh. However the xx.15* is direct to Aberdeen. I could change at Edinburgh, but could I change instead at Berwick (which would mean I had a better chance of catching my connection as I wouldn't have to get to a platform miles away?

*Just theoretic times, probably not the same in the timetable.

If your ticket states only valid with reservations then I would have thought you would be tied to the itinerary as stated on the reservation coupons.

However with a +connections where there is no reservation for the first train I would think as long as you don’t change onto the booked train before your reservation is valid you would be ok.

 

[yorkie]

On the subject of Advance interchanges, suppose you buy an Advance ticket from Brighton to Leicester. It is simply a matter of changing at St Pancras, either Luton station or Bedford. We all know that. Also assume that you are booked to travel on an EMT service from Luton to Leicester, and FCC before that. Is it permissible to join the EMT service at either St Pancras or Bedford, providing it is the same train?

Can of worms opened!

It depends on how you interpret the rules.

I don't see how it can be invalid to board at St Pancras, as you do not have a reservation to Luton, so are not tied to a train, therefore not forbidden to board there.

But the case for Bedford is dodgy. It could be argued that you are booked from Luton and if you choose to fail to board there due to no reason other than you choosing that, then a harsh interpretation of the rules would see your ticket being invalidated. Would it be enforced? That's a different question and it will depend on all sorts of factors, but possibly not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would this be valid as well? For example, in the same situation, I want to go from Newcastle - Aberdeen, so I have an EC +connections ticket for the xx.05* off Newcastle to Edinburgh. However the xx.15* is direct to Aberdeen. I could change at Edinburgh, but could I change instead at Berwick (which would mean I had a better chance of catching my connection as I wouldn't have to get to a platform miles away?

*Just theoretic times, probably not the same in the timetable.

You won't get a timetable like that, or a booking like that, you'd need to specify some random 'via' point to get that (which wouldn't work on the northern ECML as all stations are timing points), also NCL-EDB is going to be on a reservable EC train on an EC ticket. If it's a direct ticket, it is likely that the ticket will be routed EC Only, rather than EC + Connections. Given that you have effectively missed your first booked train I don't see how it could be valid.
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what if 1st train is late and the one your meant to be changing to has left? can you make your journey on the next service coming in even though this isn't the one your advance ticket says you are meant to be on?

Unfortunately you may have to wait until a service provided by the same operator. If it is on the 'connections' leg of the journey, then arguably you can get an earlier train. For example, if I had a ticket from York to Bedford EC and Connections via London and I missed the booked EMT train, and the next one was an hour, I do not see why I would have to wait 1 hour for the next when I can get FCC, and there is no prohibition on using FCC on the ticket. But if I had a ticket from Bedford to York route EC and Connections via London, and I missed the 1100 EC service, I could not board the 1127 GC service to York and would have to wait for the 1130.
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However with a +connections where there is no reservation for the first train I would think as long as you don’t change onto the booked train before your reservation is valid you would be ok.

I'd say it is more the case that you cannot board the booked train after your reservation is valid, as then arguably you have invalidated the ticket by missing it, although it may well not be enforced.

On some routes there are different interchange possibilities, for example a journey from Selby to Burnley can be made changing at any common station between Micklefield and Hebden Bridge. Different booking engines will make you change at different places, and 'arrive before' and 'depart after' make a difference on Thetrainline (try it!). So people with the same journey could have different itineraries depending on which site they used and whether they specified an arrival or departure time.

 

[142094]

You won't get a timetable like that, or a booking like that, you'd need to specify some random 'via' point to get that (which wouldn't work on the northern ECML as all stations are timing points), also NCL-EDB is going to be on a reservable EC train on an EC ticket. If it's a direct ticket, it is likely that the ticket will be routed EC Only, rather than EC + Connections. Given that you have effectively missed your first booked train I don't see how it could be valid.

Not sure if I explained it properly, or if I'm missing your point.

I book an advance ticket for example Newcastle - Inverness via Edinburgh (better example as it only has 1 direct train per day, but the train I catch first is not the Highland Chieftain), so the ticket would be EC + connections. It leaves at 12.00. Instead of logically changing at Edinburgh as the journey planner says, I decide to change at Berwick. Then at 12.30 the Highland Chieftain departs from Newcastle, and I get this from Berwick to Inverness.

Basically the question is, would an advance ticket be valid if I decide to change at a station en route? I would have to change anyway at Edinburgh, but would Beriwck be possible?

 

[Lampshade]

But why would you get a different train to start with if you're just going to end up on the Highland Chieftain anyway? :?

 

[wintonian]

But why would you get a different train to start with if you're just going to end up on the Highland Chieftain anyway? :?

I think it's because there would be more time to change trains at Berwick so as not to be in a rush.

 

[142094]

But why would you get a different train to start with if you're just going to end up on the Highland Chieftain anyway? :?

Might be a cheaper advance ticket. This is all hypothetical anyway, just seeing if it can be done.

 

[royaloak]

Hypothetically no it cannot be done!

 

[142094]

So I would be forced to change at Edinburgh?

 

[royaloak]

You have to stay within the validity of the ticket so yes unless you book the tickets at a station and ask for a change at Edinburger.

 

[142094]

But surely the ticket is still valid? The ticket only says Newcastle - Inverness, and I haven't gone off route or chnaged to a different TOC. For the second train I don't have to have a reservation, but would not using the Newcastle - Edinburgh reservation fully mean my advance ticket becomes invalid?

 

[yorkie]

But surely the ticket is still valid? The ticket only says Newcastle - Inverness, and I haven't gone off route or chnaged to a different TOC. For the second train I don't have to have a reservation, but would not using the Newcastle - Edinburgh reservation fully mean my advance ticket becomes invalid?

You can't be unreserved on the 2nd train on that route. It's debateable whether joining the 2nd train early would invalidate it. I'd say no, I can't see a rule that suggests that it is invalid. I am not sure I'd recommend it though, and it really wouldn't work so well in this example.

A better example would be changing at Edinburgh rather than Haymarket onto a FSR service, that is a realistic scenario. And yes I'd say that boarding earlier would be valid, to get a better chance of seats. (and vice-versa in the opposite direction)

 

[John @ home]

But surely the ticket is still valid?

In addition to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, the East Coast Advance ticket terms & conditions apply.

Rather than debate an artificial hypothesis, it might be more helpful if I describe how I dealt with a real issue like this. I have to travel from Leeds to London quite frequently and seek to minimise the cost. When booking at less than 2 weeks notice, I often find that the cheapest fare is for Leeds - St Pancras via Sheffield rather than Leeds - Kings Cross direct.

Quite often I travel on a Northern Leeds - Nottingham service and have to change to an East Midlands Trains Sheffield - St Pancras service. The Leeds - Nottingham service is not reservable. I plan the journey using the East Coast site, but buy the tickets from the East Midlands Trains site because it offers a small discount on their own Advance tickets bought online.

The East Coast site suggests that I change trains at Sheffield, presumably because that is a larger station with more facilities. The East Midlands Trains site prefers a change at Chesterfield, presumably because that guarantees a same-platform connection, and makes Chesterfield - St Pancras reservations. On one occasion I wanted to change at Sheffield because I wanted to use the 25-minute connection to go to the bus station to buy some scratch-off Derbyshire Wayfarer tickets. (I suppose I could have done this in Chesterfield but I don't know the location of Chesterfield bus station.)

On arrival at Sheffield, I immediately sought the train manager of the London train, pointed out that my Leeds - London tickets had reservations only from Chesterfield and asked if I would be OK to board at Sheffield. She agreed.

We can debate at length to what extent this complied with the conditions. (I think it did.) But usually I find that rail staff are genuinely pleased to be asked for help and are keen to offer it.

 

[yorkie]

Yes, that's sensible. You are, after all, not boarding a different service to that booked. The number of staff who are helpful and not in any way obstructive toward passengers is definitely in the majority in reality, although you wouldn't think it from reading the posts by some staff / ex-staff who post here.

 

[Ivo]

Right, in that case, just to explain why I mentioned it in the first place. You may remember that I had the idea of returning to Bath from my LM Dot Day via London. I booked an Advance single from Ealing Broadway to Bath Spa (EAL chosen on the grounds of cost vs. ease of access), and had to travel on the 2255 stopping service through to Oxford (Didcot Parkway owing to engineering works). My connecting HST was the 2330 from Paddington, which was booked to run extremely slowly that weekend for some reason. It was even scheduled a stop at Slough. For some reason, my reservation was set for Didcot... Why? Why not Reading? If it had been running on time [it was late, even allowing for the slow timetable!], I would have had two minutes to change at Didcot! Urgh! And even then the time on my ticket - 0024, six minutes late - was early compared to the booked arrival (0028)! Clueless. Utterly clueless. So that was basically why I raised the issue in the first place. I had assumed that I would be permitted to change at Reading, but knowing FGW... :roll:

 

[142094]

I'd say no, I can't see a rule that suggests that it is invalid. I am not sure I'd recommend it though, and it really wouldn't work so well in this example.

Right, I probably wouldn't try it but thought it could be possible.

The same situation could be put on say Leeds - Hartlepool with a TPE + connections. I could change at York for a GC, but if the TPE was going to Newcastle and stopped at Thirsk or Northallerton, could I change there instead? The advance ticket may have a seat reservation Leeds - York, but if I stayed on to Northallerton, just because I did not have a reservation York - Northallerton, would the ticket become invalid?

Probably would be better if I could find an example in the timetable which works. I can only think of a few situations where this might happen - either a disabled person can't change platform in time, or the TPE service is delayed, so I would miss the connection in York (having to get from one platform to the other), but still the TPE leaves York before the GC train.

 

[yorkie]

The same situation could be put on say Leeds - Hartlepool with a TPE + connections. I could change at York for a GC, but if the TPE was going to Newcastle and stopped at Thirsk or Northallerton, could I change there instead? The advance ticket may have a seat reservation Leeds - York, but if I stayed on to Northallerton, just because I did not have a reservation York - Northallerton, would the ticket become invalid?

There is nothing that specifically states that it is invalid in the circumstances described, you are on the same booked trains.

Indeed, the "connections" leg can arguably be taken by any train, although it is debatable if reservations are provided for a particular train on the "connections" leg (a debate that has been done to death a few times here!).

BTW this example does not work as TPE do not do "and connections" tickets.

 

[142094]

BTW this example does not work as TPE do not do "and connections" tickets.

Ah well. Probably will never happen, but there might just be that once when it does.