How often do, or have, class 67's reached 125mph?

[GNERman]

As said, how often do, or have, class 67's reached 125mph?

I know they can reach 110mph with WSMR (does this ever happen?) but ECML drags are limited to 90mph (I think).

 

[royaloak]

Never in service, don't even think they have done it on test in this country either, bit of a waste really, if they had been geared for 110mph they would have been able to haul more and accelerate faster but hey ho lets go for glory!

 

[adamp]

I dont think they can ever go up to 125mph. Something to do with how they wear the track or cause some sort of damage so are limited to some speed below 125mph.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Wasn't the Class 67s originally built for hauling mail services when EWS had the mail contract?

 

[Aictos]

Wasn't the Class 67s originally built for hauling mail services when EWS had the mail contract?

Yes I believe they were.

 

[royaloak]

At a maximum speed of 100mph, although a lot less in practice.

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

67002 was tested on Spain on some Spanish bogies and reached 143mph on their HS line.

 

[Chester025]

I think 67003 reached 125mph somewhere near Wooton Basset with a rake of MK3s when they were first introduced. Willing to be corrected though!

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

I think 67003 reached 125mph somewhere near Wooton Basset with a rake of MK3s when they were first introduced. Willing to be corrected though!

I'd be interested to hear more about this if anyone has the gen! Didn't pick up anything about that on the Visions "Doing the rounds" DVD and haven't read about it anywhere else....

Any gen anyone? Do tell!

 

[The Planner]

As said, how often do, or have, class 67's reached 125mph?

I know they can reach 110mph with WSMR (does this ever happen?) but ECML drags are limited to 90mph (I think).

WSMR only get 110mph on the WCML diversions, they dont get the linespeeds anywhere else. They are allowed at 110mph on the ECML from Kings Cross to Marshgate except over certain structures, then it's 100mph up to Shaftholme. Ive never found anything that says 67s cannot do 125mph where linespeed permits.

 

[mumrar]

WSMR only get 110mph on the WCML diversions, they dont get the linespeeds anywhere else. They are allowed at 110mph on the ECML from Kings Cross to Marshgate except over certain structures, then it's 100mph up to Shaftholme. Ive never found anything that says 67s cannot do 125mph where linespeed permits.

The only loco bogies proven here for 125mph were the Class 89s (and HST powercars). Brush were approched about the Class 89 ones but quoted a silly price, and so the bogies they have are a compromise, and they're not permitted to run at 125mph. This is all stuff I've heard/read, but I have no official quotes to back it up.

 

[ChrisCooper]

The Mk3 DVTs themselves are only cleared for 110mph, although the hauled Mk3s are 125mph. Remember that at the time they were introduced, the 89 and 91s were the only 125mph locos, and they were never intended to work with them (and I don't think one ever has) so there was not need for them to have a top speed above 110mph, the maximum speed of the 87s and 90s they were intended to work with, and the maximum of the line they were intended to run on.

 

[GNERman]

Wasn't the Class 67s originally built for hauling mail services when EWS had the mail contract?

Yeah they were going to haul converted mk 3's at 125 to replace the rest of the loco hauled sets...

 

[E&W Lucas]

WSMR only get 110mph on the WCML diversions, they dont get the linespeeds anywhere else. They are allowed at 110mph on the ECML from Kings Cross to Marshgate except over certain structures, then it's 100mph up to Shaftholme. Ive never found anything that says 67s cannot do 125mph where linespeed permits.

67's are 100 MPH max.

No train is permitted to run above 110 mph, unless there is a brake control unit operative at both ends, eg HST or 91 & DVT.

 

[The Planner]

The sectional appendix doesnt allude to that.

 

[truckman060473]

Cardiff to Paignton 67 + stock + 67? the rear 67 is off for journey so does this count or not? not sure what speeds this achieves during this journey though

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

In regards to Chester025's post on 003, spoke to someone who confirmed what he said:

"Was used on GW with 4x Virgin HST trailers. Virgin caped a service train I believe as a result as they had no spare stock!"

 

[Chester025]

In regards to Chester025's post on 003, spoke to someone who confirmed what he said:

"Was used on GW with 4x Virgin HST trailers. Virgin caped a service train I believe as a result as they had no spare stock!"

Ah, so my mind isn't playing tricks on me. Although it appears that it was 67023 invovled in the tests: http://www.kentrail.co.uk/Class 67.htm

Certification for 125 MPH top speed began again in 2000, No. 67023 being the first example to reach the ultimate limit with a rake of Mk 3 carriages.

 

[E&W Lucas]

The sectional appendix doesnt allude to that.

I wouldn't expect it to. More likely to be found in the Rule Book, instructions for the specific traction, and any company specific procedures.
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Cardiff to Paignton 67 + stock + 67? the rear 67 is off for journey so does this count or not? not sure what speeds this achieves during this journey though

In that situation, the 67 is just an air braked vehicle.

For the brake control unit to be operational, it would have to be working in multiple with the front loco.

Theoretical though, as the type is limited to 100 in service, and as stated above, they struggle to reach it with any sort of load.

 

[The Planner]

Theoretical though, as the type is limited to 100 in service, and as stated above, they struggle to reach it with any sort of load.

67s achieve 100 with comfort between Stechford and Coventry. Id bet they didnt have much hassle getting to 110 when WSMR did the diversions, there are WSMR drivers about that can probably answer that with more detail.

 

[E&W Lucas]

67s achieve 100 with comfort between Stechford and Coventry. Id bet they didnt have much hassle getting to 110 when WSMR did the diversions, there are WSMR drivers about that can probably answer that with more detail.

Do you actually sign 67's?

I do

 

[The Planner]

No i dont, as it is plainly obvious, was there a need for the big "im a driver therefore I know everything" ??

 

[E&W Lucas]

No i dont, as it is plainly obvious, was there a need for the big "im a driver therefore I know everything" ??

Well why argue with a factual statement from someone who is obviously speaking from experience with these locos? Someone has asked the question about them, you're trying to answer it from a book, I've done so from real world knowledge.

WSMR would seem to have negotiated some sort of arrangement to run the things at 110. I've no knowledge of their operation, but I can't believe that they're pulling very much to achieve the performance that you have described. They are not especially strong locos.

 

[Skip 10]

Nothing negotiated that I know of, just what network rail have deemd is acceptable for running, havent got my rule book with me at home so not sure of the exact wording. As with all classes some are stronger than others, but as you say 4 Mk3's and a DVT isnt the most taxing of loads.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Nothing negotiated that I know of, just what network rail have deemd is acceptable for running, havent got my rule book with me at home so not sure of the exact wording. As with all classes some are stronger than others, but as you say 4 Mk3's and a DVT isnt the most taxing of loads.

This prompts a trip to the bookcase, and my cl 67 manual. Explanation - Where I go with them, they're limited to 100, maximum. May not be the case where you are then. Mystery solved.

I suspect you in turn will have a limitation imposed due to the length of your formation. There's not exactly a lot of brake force there for any more than 110!

As for haulage capabilities, I'm basing my observations on having to shift 2 - 3 times that weight.

 

[TDK]

This prompts a trip to the bookcase, and my cl 67 manual. Explanation - Where I go with them, they're limited to 100, maximum. May not be the case where you are then. Mystery solved.

I suspect you in turn will have a limitation imposed due to the length of your formation. There's not exactly a lot of brake force there for any more than 110!

As for haulage capabilities, I'm basing my observations on having to shift 2 - 3 times that weight.

EWSLucas, 67's for WSMR are cleared for 110mph and the only reason our sets can only do 110mph and not 125 is that the DVT is only a 110mph max vehicle and we do not have anywhere that has 125mph running unless it is MU or EPS. As for brakeforce, I belive a 67 has 74 tons of brakeforce which loco wise is a phenominal amount, (the Deltic only has 51T) plus the 4 coaches and the DVT, the brakes are exceptionally good from 110mph with just 1.5bar in the cylinders, will slow easily. You may sign them but how often do you drive them? The higher speeds we are permitted are WCML 110, Coventry to Stechford 100, Bicester to Princes Risborough 100. I will be honest and say that any more than the 5 vehicles we pull/push would be a big impact on the accelleration as with 6 vice 5 there is a fudemental difference.

Not so long back and maybe still permitted 67's were permitted for 125mph running on the ECML and in some places 125mph light engine so I really do not thing brakeforce is an issue.
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No i dont, as it is plainly obvious, was there a need for the big "im a driver therefore I know everything" ??

Calm down, calm down planner, not all drivers are that way inclined
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67s achieve 100 with comfort between Stechford and Coventry. Id bet they didnt have much hassle getting to 110 when WSMR did the diversions, there are WSMR drivers about that can probably answer that with more detail.

110mph no problem with an acceleration curve not much short of a Voyagers. I was doing 110mph yesterday between Crewe and Stafford reached 110 still going upthe bank out of Crewe before the gradient drop

 

[43167]

I think 67003 reached 125mph somewhere near Wooton Basset with a rake of MK3s when they were first introduced. Willing to be corrected though!

Your right. Its on one of the Traction videos.

 

[seventh-heaven]

Well why argue with a factual statement from someone who is obviously speaking from experience with these locos? Someone has asked the question about them, you're trying to answer it from a book, I've done so from real world knowledge.

WSMR would seem to have negotiated some sort of arrangement to run the things at 110. I've no knowledge of their operation, but I can't believe that they're pulling very much to achieve the performance that you have described. They are not especially strong locos.

Suggest you should check your facts before you place yourself on a pedestal. You may sign 67's but you are totally wrong.

The 67's have clearance on their NRAP (Network Rail Acceptance Panel) Certificate to operate at up to 125mph. It is currently restricted to Western Region, but in principle could be applicable to other 125mph railways if the infrastructure and structures were passed for RA8 at that speed.

In principle this clearance applies when working with 125mph coaching stock (is Mk3 & Mk4). In terms of braking WSMR have proved that 67's and Mk3's can meet the enhanced brake rate assiciated with HST's and other modern multiple units such as 168's & pendo's. In prionciple there is nothing stopping WSMR running at 125mph with their formation if the infrastructure was passed for that speed as the DVT's are also certificated for 125.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Suggest you should check your facts before you place yourself on a pedestal. You may sign 67's but you are totally wrong.

The 67's have clearance on their NRAP (Network Rail Acceptance Panel) Certificate to operate at up to 125mph. It is currently restricted to Western Region, but in principle could be applicable to other 125mph railways if the infrastructure and structures were passed for RA8 at that speed.

In principle this clearance applies when working with 125mph coaching stock (is Mk3 & Mk4). In terms of braking WSMR have proved that 67's and Mk3's can meet the enhanced brake rate assiciated with HST's and other modern multiple units such as 168's & pendo's. In prionciple there is nothing stopping WSMR running at 125mph with their formation if the infrastructure was passed for that speed as the DVT's are also certificated for 125.

The question at the start of this thread was do 67's do 125 in practice.

I was taught them as 100 mph locos; the 125 was mentioned, with the caveat that NR will not actually let them do it. What you're alluding to with your reference to RA above. I will freely admit that I have learnt something from the WSMR gents, but their arrangement is certainly not universal.

The loco certainly has excellent brakes. I was more referring to the formation as a whole. I believe Grand Central had a restriction placed on their HST's at one point, should they have shortened their formations further. Essentially due to the likelyhood of the short train going into a high speed slide. They were challenging it, but I do not know the outcome.

They may be 125 capable in theory, but I genuinely do not believe that this is employed anywhere in day to day service.