New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[Roast Veg]

That's all well and good as long as the signal sighting is adequate at all stations, hanging right up to the ends of platforms has been a problem before!

 

[hwl]

Bombardier and Hitachi do meet this requirements. In fact Hitachi come extremely close to this requirement.

Do you mean that Hitachi only just meet the requirements and Bombardier clearly meet it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you mean that Hitachi only just meet the requirements and Bombardier clearly meet it?

A key difference here, though, is that Bombardier's product is theoretical whereas Hitachi's definitely exists and is running successfully on GWR. Given how much of an issue most of the new fleets have been, this has to have huge value.

 

[td97]

Grayling has emphasised the importance of British assembly... ruling out Stadler?
Also said first mainline testing in 2021... ruling out Bombardier?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

A key difference here, though, is that Bombardier's product is theoretical whereas Hitachi's definitely exists and is running successfully on GWR. Given how much of an issue most of the new fleets have been, this has to have huge value.

Correct. Bombardier clearly are just theorising and it is all ‘in theory’ it would be the best option. Hitachi has proven that on diesel it works and can meet the requirements.

 

[CosherB]

I'd personally go for a uniform fleet of 7 or 8x26m and vary the timetable and Advance fares to make best use of them.

Can Hitachi make an 8-car 802 with 6 generator units? Might be able to make up the power deficit of the standard 802 (plus one less 24m carriage). Capacity around ~560. With 802s on GWR, HT and TPE, I'd say Hitachi are in pole position for EMR.

 

[humbersidejim]

Much as I am inclined to question the wisdom of the DfT's specification of IEP, and the value for money of it, there is surely a big long term benefit to all the major inter city operators in the country sharing a common fleet type.

If we can move away from the fragmentation of the late 90s, won't the industry be in a better long term position?

 

[Richard Ingram]

Can Hitachi make an 8-car 802 with 6 generator units? Might be able to make up the power deficit of the standard 802 (plus one less 24m carriage). Capacity around ~560. With 802s on GWR, HT and TPE, I'd say Hitachi are in pole position for EMR.

Just done some basic calculations, an 8 car with 6 GU's would give 705hp/car. Would that be enough? Could the line take 9 cars, as 9 cars with 7 GU's would give 731hp/car?

For completeness, 9 cars with 6 GU's would give 627hp/car.

Just to check, a 9 car class 800 with 7 GU's would give 580hp/car, higher than any current 802, and might mean less trouble with overheating.

 

[hwl]

Can Hitachi make an 8-car 802 with 6 generator units? Might be able to make up the power deficit of the standard 802 (plus one less 24m carriage). Capacity around ~560. With 802s on GWR, HT and TPE, I'd say Hitachi are in pole position for EMR.

Hitachi could but the Bombardier concept is 1 engine raft per car (no intermediate car only Hitachi limitiations) using the same MTU raft has Hitachi. This allows Bombarider to be flexible with the number of car/unit if required
Bombardiers design will be about 30-35tons lighter than an equivalent 9car IEPs (assume the same number of engines as current IEPs) so won't need as much power to achieve performance targets in the first place.
This allow the engines to be run more gently most of the time (as per 100mph IEP on diesel thinking but for 125mph this time) and no performance loss if an engine is switched off as the others can pick up the slack.

 

[hwl]

A key difference here, though, is that Bombardier's product is theoretical whereas Hitachi's definitely exists and is running successfully on GWR. Given how much of an issue most of the new fleets have been, this has to have huge value.

Hitachi have done Bombardier a big favour in providing several years of real in UK service learning with the MTU rafts to MTU and Bombardier can design around know issues and limitations to optimise overall costs. How hard the engines are worked has an effect on maintenance intervals and extending the intervals could mean fewer units need to be ordered overall.

 

[CosherB]

Hitachi could but the Bombardier concept is 1 engine raft per car (no intermediate car only Hitachi limitiations) using the same MTU raft has Hitachi. This allows Bombarider to be flexible with the number of car/unit if required
Bombardiers design will be about 30-35tons lighter than an equivalent 9car IEPs (assume the same number of engines as current IEPs) so won't need as much power to achieve performance targets in the first place.
This allow the engines to be run more gently most of the time (as per 100mph IEP on diesel thinking but for 125mph this time) and no performance loss if an engine is switched off as the others can pick up the slack.

Where are the transformers located on the Aventra bi-mode?

 

[edwin_m]

Wouldn't that cause issues with flighting services in the morning and evening peaks at STP? At present they regularly double up the units because of the meagre 4 platforms they got stuck with. I suppose they could slash the turnaround times and not do any cleaning...

The doubling up is at least as much about the limited number of paths as the platforms. A unit too long to be doubled but shorter than the platforms at St Pancras would be a reduction is passenger space on the busiest services - but not necessarily a reduction in seating is it would probably use that space more efficiently than a 222 (this may or may not involve face-to-back ironing boards).

The lower leasing, maintenance and running costs of EMUs versus DMUs makes a long fixed formation more attractive for electrics, but bi-modes are possibly more expensive than either in leasing cost and somewhere in between on the other costs. Short units also have more staff costs when doubled up.

Roger Ford's email update this week reported that Hitachi can now supply a 5-car with 4 generator units.

 

[hwl]

Where are the transformers located on the Aventra bi-mode?

On the opposite end of the car to the pantograph well but the aventra transformers (like the new desiro city ones) are of a newer design that is more compact and has new cooling design. Hence more space underneath for the raft. The other key bit with the Aventras is that the traction motor electronics don't have to be on the same car as the traction motors (4 or 6 motors of control electronics along with auxiliary 415V 110V supplies per "grey" box)

 

[tbtc]

Much as I am inclined to question the wisdom of the DfT's specification of IEP, and the value for money of it, there is surely a big long term benefit to all the major inter city operators in the country sharing a common fleet type.

If we can move away from the fragmentation of the late 90s, won't the industry be in a better long term position?

The "value for money" of the initial batch of 80Xs wasn't great but probably the price that we'd need to pay for the step change in long distance trains (bearing in mind that a lot of the comparisons being made weren't comparing apples with apples - e.g. the Hitachi contract includes maintenance and guaranteed levels of units in service - some people were comparing this with just the leasing costs of a 390 - ignoring awkward facts like the cost of providing locos for haulage beyond the wires etc).

However Hitachi have had subsequent orders of 802s for GWR/ Hull Trains/ TPE/ FirstGroup's ECML Open Access service, so the costs must have come down to something suitably competitive.

Trouble is, we always have this with prototypes - there were some stupidly high costs bandied around for the NB4L/ "BorisMasters" (which ignored the fact that lumbering the first small batch of vehicles with all of the design costs for the project is bound to make them look incredibly expensive - but that design work is a "sunk cost", so the subsequent orders look a lot cheaper in comparison.

One big fleet of similar trains running pretty much all InterCity ECML/ MML/ GWML services (plus TPE and maybe XC at a later date) would be a big improvement and remove the problems associated with small fleets (like 180s).

As far as the MML stock goes, whilst the four platforms at St Pancras are always going to be a constraint, if we have a fleet of Corby EMUs (say twelve coach 379s) and a fleet of InterCity trains (say 8x26m 802s) then turnarounds can be a lot sharper.

Compare Euston (where the 390s are often doing much longer journeys but are able to work the next northbound service - e.g. an inbound Birmingham service can become the next outbound Manchester service, an arrival from Glasgow can head north to Liverpool) with St Pancras where different traction and train lengths seem to be required for each particular service (e.g. seven coach 222s for most Sheffield fasts, five coach 222s for Sheffield slows, four coach 222s for Corby, long HSTs for Nottingham, short HSTs restricted to specific duties, long HSTs for Leeds), which means that the four platforms are often clogged up. Having two types of traction should improve things (even if the "Derby" and "Nottingham" staff only work *their* services, an inbound "Nottingham" service can become an outbound "Derby" service with the staff stepping back onto the subsequent departure).

 

[Mikey C]

I imagine there will be a fair bit of politicking surrounding this order, as both Bombardier and Hitachi need the work and no doubt local politicians will kick up a fuss if their supplier doesn't win...

 

[Japan0913]

Hitachi officials said the company is considering expanding its rail car production plant in Newton Aycliffe, northern England.
japan-news　May 16, 2019

http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0005741120

・・・・・・
Hitachi officials said the company is considering expanding its rail car production plant in Newton Aycliffe, northern England.

Hitachi will make its final decision after the course of Britain’s exit from the European Union is fixed, according to the officials. Several billion yen would likely be invested.

In Britain, Hitachi assembles train cars from components made mainly at the Kasado plant in Kudamatsu, Yamaguchi Prefecture.

“We’ll cut transportation costs. We’ll build train cars at the British plant,” Kasado plant manager Junichi Kawahata said.Speech

Regarding the production plan of Newton Aycliffe plant after the end of IEP vehicle production,
As a rumor of a certainty person,
"At present, the backlog of general-purpose vehicles called AT-300, which is the same type as IEP, has reached more than 1000 cars,"
It emphasizes that there is no anxiety in the plant operation for the time being.

HITACHI recently secured a large volume order?

 

[CosherB]

Rumours posted elsewhere stated that the Newton Aycliffe factory may close!!!!

Clearly, the EMR oder going to the north-east would be a big boost for Hitachi in the UK.

 

[Chester1]

Much as I am inclined to question the wisdom of the DfT's specification of IEP, and the value for money of it, there is surely a big long term benefit to all the major inter city operators in the country sharing a common fleet type.

If we can move away from the fragmentation of the late 90s, won't the industry be in a better long term position?

The UK does seem to be accidentally in the position of having 3 train manufacturers that have specialised. Bombardier with EMUs, Hitachi with bi modes and CAF with DMUs. Its a fairly decent position and if it continues all three factories should stay open but may have to make some staff redundant. The earlier than required delivery date strongly indicates Hitachi have won the EMR contract.

 

[irish_rail]

In these days where populism outweighs everything else I think it inconceivable this will go to anyone except derby based bombardier. Which is a shame as a larger fleet of nationwide 802s makes more sense.

 

[222001]

Hitachi officials said the company is considering expanding its rail car production plant in Newton Aycliffe, northern England.
japan-news　May 16, 2019

Regarding the production plan of Newton Aycliffe plant after the end of IEP vehicle production,
As a rumor of a certainty person,
"At present, the backlog of general-purpose vehicles called AT-300, which is the same type as IEP, has reached more than 1000 cars,"
It emphasizes that there is no anxiety in the plant operation for the time being.

HITACHI recently secured a large volume order?

Seems a bit odd. The 802 vehicle count is at 381. I reckon that must include the original IEP trains, which would total at 1,292.

 

[hooverboy]

Hitachi officials said the company is considering expanding its rail car production plant in Newton Aycliffe, northern England.
japan-news　May 16, 2019

Regarding the production plan of Newton Aycliffe plant after the end of IEP vehicle production,
As a rumor of a certainty person,
"At present, the backlog of general-purpose vehicles called AT-300, which is the same type as IEP, has reached more than 1000 cars,"
It emphasizes that there is no anxiety in the plant operation for the time being.

HITACHI recently secured a large volume order?

red herring!

orders from japan are not affected by brexit.They still have to get signed in on carnet whether we are part of the EU or not.
In actual fact,Hitachi would probably stand to gain quite a lot of business should we not be in EU, they would be competing fairly on the same overheads/liabilities as the rest of the EU manufacturers like CAF,Talgo,Alstom,siemens,bombardier etc- that is not the case at present.they are at a competitive disadvantage due to the extra paperwork)

would it affect their EU business?...no.
same paperwork also has to be submitted to EU from outside the bloc.

would it affect our intention to buy from them?...no
they have established themselves as a solid,reliable company do do business with ,who on the whole make very good quality products.

I think the only stipulation government may add,is that more is built in house in the uk,rather than imported.

 

[SPADTrap]

Apparently Stadler’s offer struggles to meet journey time requirements so despite people thinking it would be in pole position it does not look that way as if it cannot meet journey time requirements on diesel then it is less likely to be chosen. Bombardier and Hitachi do meet this requirements. In fact Hitachi come extremely close to this requirement.

So, do Hitachi meet it or come close? You've rather contradicted yourself there.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So, do Hitachi meet it or come close? You've rather contradicted yourself there.

According the MR they come extremely close, Bombardier is in 'theory' it does meet the requirement, Stadler not anywhere near as close as any of the other two.

 

[hooverboy]

In these days where populism outweighs everything else I think it inconceivable this will go to anyone except derby based bombardier. Which is a shame as a larger fleet of nationwide 802s makes more sense.

I think whatever follow-on orders are place now,there will be mechanisms in place to ensure most of the manufacturing is done in UK.

if bombardier can come up with a killer product that they can deliver on time and on budget,then all good, but hitachi and siemens both now have a physical presence here.
A lot of it now stems on reputation for doing what the bid says on the tin.TOC's and the travelling public will be far less tolerant of screw-ups given the LO/Crossrail debacle.

CAF seem to have carved out a niche for building stuff that nobody else wants to touch,so maybe they get the direct 14x/153 replacements?

 

[cactustwirly]

Shame, I was hoping the East Midlands would get something built properly.
Both Bombardier and Hitachi trains have very poor build quality.

I was hoping that the new trains would be Stadler, as the trains are definitely the best, with solid build quality.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CAF seem to have carved out a niche for building stuff that nobody else wants to touch,so maybe they get the direct 14x/153 replacements?

What direct 14x/153 replacements? All TOCs replacing these are doing it via a classic cascade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was hoping that the new trains would be Stadler, as the trains are definitely the best, with solid build quality.

TBH, the 800s are also not a bad train - they just have rubbish seats, but there's nothing stopping someone else funding the testing of a different seat for 125mph use on new stock - the FISA LEAN would be a good bet. Stadler's "killer app", though, is low floor, removing the need for passenger assistance (something the railway are having difficulties delivering properly and consistently, and are always cruising for a court case) in a stroke. I still think this should be made mandatory.

 

[cactustwirly]

TBH, the 800s are also not a bad train - they just have rubbish seats, but there's nothing stopping someone else funding the testing of a different seat for 125mph use on new stock - the FISA LEAN would be a good bet. Stadler's "killer app", though, is low floor, removing the need for passenger assistance (something the railway are having difficulties delivering properly and consistently, and are always cruising for a court case) in a stroke. I still think this should be made mandatory.

Um, the build quality is absolutely terrible!
The GWR 800s have crackly PAs and about 50,000 rattles in each coach

 

[Jozhua]

Obviously trains are fairly specialist bits of machinery, but there must still be quite a large amount of the cost from R&D for each unit...

I think ultimately, producing as many of each design as possible will reduce the amount we're spending on research and development as well as the costs of maintenance into the future due to a higher availability of spares and knowledge with specific types of train! 800 series trains with more engine cars would be perfect, 4/6 being engined at 950hp each seems like it could definitely match the acceleration of the 222's, or come close enough.

 

[Doomotron]

Um, the build quality is absolutely terrible!
The GWR 800s have crackly PAs and about 50,000 rattles in each coach

I'm pretty sure that might have something to do with them being operated by First Great Western, because the Southeastern Javelins have neither of those and are very well built (except for couple that are rattly, but that's not many).