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Shouldnt railways do more to generate various forms of power ?

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Highlandspring

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I'll try and take a picture next time I pass it, but I'm fairly certain it was a signal.
There are no solar or wind powered colour light* signals on NR infrastructure. What you're seeing is almost certainly a traction gel applicator, a lubricator or similar. What it certainly isn't is a signal.


*there have been experiments with solar power for semaphores.
 
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Bald Rick

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This a subject about which I know a fair amount.

Firstly, this presupposes that ‘the railway’ hasn’t lots of spare land knocking about doing nothing that could be turned over to renewable energy generation. It doesn’t. But, let’s pretend it did.

Wherever you generate, you need somewhere to feed the generated electricity to, and convert it to a useful voltage. Generally speaking, Solar generates around 12v D.C., wind generates 600-700vAC. It is always more cost effective to have a large array of panels / turbines in close proximity as you then get a good economy of scale with the inverters and transformers necessary to get it into the grid or DNO. As such it would not be remotely economic to have small scale solar or wind dotted around various railway sites trying to feed into the traction power. It would be far more cost effective time for ‘the railway’ to have a large wind farm somewhere which then supplied the network. But, ‘the railway’ is no specialist in this, so it would be even more economic for it to get someone else to do it, and then buy the electricity off them at the best rates, being the largest consumer of electricity in the country.

New onshore wind is something of a dying breed. The future is offshore, and the bigger the better. There is almost as much offshore wind capacity under construction (2.5GW) as nuclear (Hinckley Point C, 3.2GW). There is nearly 4 times as much offshore wind consented for construction (12GW) as other nuclear in planning (Sizewell C, 3GW). All of this wind capacity will be commissioned before Hinckley Point C. Offshore wind is more reliable than onshore, and of course less trouble for the environment, unless you are a particularly fussy fish. Offshore wind is also roughly half the price of nuclear. The trouble with wind is that even at sea, sometimes it doesn’t blow. Even then, in about 5-7 years time this country will have 40GW of wind capacity, which on a windy day in summer will mean that we will be turning off turbines to prevent the network going pop.

Solar is ideal for small scale generation in domestic and commercial applications, particularly if allied to local storage. This is where the railway can make a difference. Station buildings, depots etc have the roof space to supply what is beneath them. But not traction.

Blackfriars station has 1MW Solar capacity on the roof. Over the course of the year it supplies on average a third of the station power demand. Needless to say the business case was not good, as the installation was rather more expensive than a regular solar installation, being on a high roof on a station above a live railway and river. BUT, if installed on new buildings as part of the construction, it should work.

But this shouldn’t just be a railway thing. It should apply to all new buildings, and particularly ‘government’ buildings - hospitals, schools, offices, etc etc.
 
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Railguy1

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But this shouldn’t just be a railway thing. It should apply to all new buildings, and particularly ‘government’ buildings - hospitals, schools, offices, etc etc.

I agree, I've always believed that any new government building should have provision for solar panels. There could also be more incentives for local residents to also install solar panels on existing buildings as well.
 

hexagon789

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There are no solar or wind powered colour light* signals on NR infrastructure. What you're seeing is almost certainly a traction gel applicator, a lubricator or similar. What it certainly isn't is a signal.


*there have been experiments with solar power for semaphores.

I really must look it out and take a photo. I know the mind can play tricks, and I appreciate now I'm probably wrong, but at the time I was sure that what is was.

No matter, I shall find out what this solar-powered whatsit is! :lol:
 

Highlandspring

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I really must look it out and take a photo. I know the mind can play tricks, and I appreciate now I'm probably wrong, but at the time I was sure that what is was.

No matter, I shall find out what this solar-powered whatsit is! :lol:
Which line and roughly whereabouts?
 

syorksdeano

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Somewhere along the way, around 1825, people lost the plot.

I've been on that 1825 service from Sheffield and a lot of the passengers have certainly lost the plot.....

But anyway back to the original topic. The problem at the moment is that the cost with renewable energy equipment is changing all the time. By the time solar panels are installed at one location someone else comes along with better solar panels that the ones installed and in some cases cheaper.
 

whhistle

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Maybe little wind turbines on the side/top of trains could generate a bit of electric.
 

hooverboy

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Maybe little wind turbines on the side/top of trains could generate a bit of electric.
everyone is missing the elephant in the room here!..we are talking about new technologies.

HS2 when built should obviously have piezo-electric rails(or sleepers)!
as long as there are trains running over them you'll get plenty of juice!
 

GingerSte

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Blackfriars station has 1GW Solar capacity on the roof. Over the course of the year it supplies on average a third of the station power demand. Needless to say the business case was not good, as the installation was rather more expensive than a regular solar installation, being on a high roof on a station above a live railway and river. BUT, if installed on new buildings as part of the construction, it should work.

But this shouldn’t just be a railway thing. It should apply to all new buildings, and particularly ‘government’ buildings - hospitals, schools, offices, etc etc.

I assume that you mean 1MW rather than 1GW. 1GW seems a bit much.

I thought Birmingham New Street was a bit of a missed opportunity in this area. It has a vast area of plant decks set up on the roof. The atrium and multi-storey car park only took up part of this. Even after all the necessary plant (HVAC, etc) had been installed, there was still a lot of room for solar panels.
 
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In HS2 Select Committee hearings this week, there was debate about running National Grid assets alongside railway lines. Apart from electrical interference issues, one of the "problems" cited was that if any NG assets were on (operational) railway lands, then all the NG engineers that might need to gain access to maintain and troubleshoot the NG assets would need to be "railway" safety trained in addition to their electrical safety procedures. Potentially, there might be requirement to close the railway whilst the power assets are being maintained. One could see that "solar panels on cutting/embankment faces" could have similar consequences.
 

SansHache

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Don't forget that modern electric trains are already regenerating significant amounts of power back into the supply. This reduces the net loading on the National Grid where there are other trains in the same electrical section to consume the regenerated energy. On 25kV networks the regenerated power can feed back directly into the grid.
The Class 390 Pendolinos typically regenerate 15% of the power consumed back into the supply. This equates to over 150MWh of energy per day across the fleet. A modern EMU operating on commuter services will return up to 25% of the energy consumed. If Northern were to replace their Class 319s by Class 323s then I would anticipate an energy saving of at least 20%.
If the government is really serious about climate change and de-carbonisation of the economy then the case for a rolling programme of rail electrification is overwhelming. As the energy mix changes, with more and more wind and solar capacity coming on line, the credentials of electric traction are enhanced even further.
Bi-mode trains wasting valuable energy hauling heavy diesel engines around under electric wires for the next 30 years are not the answer. Yes they have a role on certain routes, but they should be they should be the exception not the norm. Filling the electrification gaps and electrifying all commuter networks around our major cities is the solution to reducing emissions and minimising net energy consumption.
In the short-term let's look to use battery EMU technology to replace diesel trains on services that have significant portions under OLE. Liverpool - Manchester Airport via the CLC route would be a perfect starter scheme, enhancing capacity and performance while reducing energy consumption and emissions.
None of this relies on new technology, it is all available now and running on UK and European rail networks. This is what engineers have been working on for the last 30 years and it is a pity that the climate protesters who have been so active in recent weeks fail to acknowledge the progress that has been made in the transport and energy sectors.
 

Bald Rick

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The Class 390 Pendolinos typically regenerate 15% of the power consumed back into the supply. This equates to over 150MWh of energy per day across the fleet. A modern EMU operating on commuter services will return up to 25% of the energy consumed. If Northern were to replace their Class 319s by Class 323s then I would anticipate an energy saving of at least 20%.

I don’t doubt the regen % figures quoted for local services, indeed I think they can be somewhat higher, but I do doubt it for the Pendolinos. The latter only regenerate when braking, and not at 100% efficiency. If you think about it, a Pendolino on a typical trip (London - Manchester) will only be braking for perhaps 10 minutes of a 2 hour journey. That’s rather less than 10%. And the train is also using about 20% of the power it draws for hotel services and tilt, and none of that can be recouped. I know it’s not as simple a that of course. Nevertheless, some regen is better than none!
 

najaB

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Maybe little wind turbines on the side/top of trains could generate a bit of electric.
I'm sorry, wwhistle, but in this country we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

(With apologies to Homer Simpson! :) )
 

HSTEd

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New onshore wind is something of a dying breed. The future is offshore, and the bigger the better. There is almost as much offshore wind capacity under construction (2.5GW) as nuclear (Hinckley Point C, 3.2GW). There is nearly 4 times as much offshore wind consented for construction (12GW) as other nuclear in planning (Sizewell C, 3GW). All of this wind capacity will be commissioned before Hinckley Point C.
Using nameplate output for comparing wind to nuclear is somewhat problematic, given that even offshore wind only has a capacity factor of about ~35-40%, compared to about ~85-90% for nuclear.

A better measurement would be to compare GWh/yr instead of nameplate otuput, or to use an average output figure (they are functionally the same).

Also wind turbines that have consented for construction will not necessarily be built.
And no new nuclear beyond HPC will be built as long as the Government clings to Thatcherism.... there is a reason virtually noone else has been stupid enough to build a nuclaer power station in a western "free market" electricity system.

Offshore wind is more reliable than onshore, and of course less trouble for the environment, unless you are a particularly fussy fish. Offshore wind is also roughly half the price of nuclear.
Thanks to the way the electricity market works, comparing CfD prices is not a good way to compare the true subsidy of electricity from various sources.
As wind turbines have a somewhat coordinated output, low capacity factor, and very low marginal costs of operation, we can lead to a phenomenon of "price collapse" where the average price at which their electricity can be sold on the market ends up being substantially lower than the average price of electricity on the system.

In other words, the power is cheaper, but also less valuable

This becomes ever more problematic as the power output of the renewable source, as a fraction of electricity consumption, approaches the fraction of it's capacity factor. (At that point electricity prices at peak generating times could easily fall to zero or go negative, as is currently seen in Germany and parts of America).

This means the subsidy to wind turbines at £57.50/MWh (assuming they are actually built! Especially given they are clamping down on the use of underpaid Russian labour) and to nuclear at £80-95/MWh is much much closer than you might believe, as the much higher capacity factor at nuclear makes it much more resistant to this effect.
Price of nuclear is also rather heavily impacted by interest rates, to an almost hilarious degree - if we just use government financing to build the plants the breakeven price would be something like £25/MWh.

The trouble with wind is that even at sea, sometimes it doesn’t blow. Even then, in about 5-7 years time this country will have 40GW of wind capacity, which on a windy day in summer will mean that we will be turning off turbines to prevent the network going pop.
And when the wind doesn't blow in the winter, we will burn huge quantities of natural gas through open cycle turbines and gas engines in an attempt to stop the grid falling over!
Solar is ideal for small scale generation in domestic and commercial applications, particularly if allied to local storage. This is where the railway can make a difference. Station buildings, depots etc have the roof space to supply what is beneath them. But not traction.
But solar panels tend to be anti-correlated to UK electricity demand, in the middle of the summer when electricity demand is quite low.
Without mass useo f air conditioning, photovoltaic power has almost no value.
 
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Class 170101

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I agree that presently it's one of the most viable options, certainly it's far greener than coal, oil or gas-generated power.

Whilst nuclear may be green form of energy in terms of carbon what do we do with the nuclear waste today? We bury it on concrete - hardly green or environmentally friendly. It also carries safety risks (as noted by a previous poster above) that need to be managed but cannot be eliminated.

Post Japan nuclear power risks seem to be being re-evaluated. Indeed hasn't Germany gone back to coal fired power stations. Financially nuclear wants public subsidy to generate power as well. Hardly a vote winner I would suggest.

Whilst local installations of solar panels (and maybe wind turbines) on railway buildings and other infrastructure will not be able to supply enough power for the railway I would like to think it could make a dent in its demands, along with everyone doing their small bit. A famous advertising slogan we all know. Every Little Helps.

What I have wondered is why solar panels haven't been installed along south facing cutting slopes both road and rail. Despite my last paragraph I am aware that some don't like wind turbines in their backyard (hence the installations at sea).
 

najaB

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Whilst nuclear may be green form of energy in terms of carbon what do we do with the nuclear waste today?
The waste issue is highly over-exaggerated. A coal plant releases more Becquerels into the environment over its lifetime than a nuclear plant will. It's just that with a nuclear plant it's concentrated into a smaller volume.

Edit: As always, XKCD got there first



Source: https://xkcd.com/radiation/
 
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The waste issue is highly over-exaggerated. A coal plant releases more Becquerels into the environment over its lifetime than a nuclear plant will. It's just that with a nuclear plant it's concentrated into a smaller volume.

Becquerels released is not a measure of the waste, it is a measure of the leakage. The waste is still a massive problem. I don't mind going near a nuclear plant, they are unlikely to go badly wrong, and quite safe in operation, but I wouldn't want to find a spent fuel rod lying about. We need to keep them secure for a very long time. That is an environmental issue.
 

hexagon789

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Whilst nuclear may be green form of energy in terms of carbon what do we do with the nuclear waste today? We bury it on concrete - hardly green or environmentally friendly. It also carries safety risks (as noted by a previous poster above) that need to be managed but cannot be eliminated.

Post Japan nuclear power risks seem to be being re-evaluated. Indeed hasn't Germany gone back to coal fired power stations. Financially nuclear wants public subsidy to generate power as well. Hardly a vote winner I would suggest.

Whilst local installations of solar panels (and maybe wind turbines) on railway buildings and other infrastructure will not be able to supply enough power for the railway I would like to think it could make a dent in its demands, along with everyone doing their small bit. A famous advertising slogan we all know. Every Little Helps.

What I have wondered is why solar panels haven't been installed along south facing cutting slopes both road and rail. Despite my last paragraph I am aware that some don't like wind turbines in their backyard (hence the installations at sea).

The waste is the only major downside that I see.
 

najaB

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Becquerels released is not a measure of the waste, it is a measure of the leakage. The waste is still a massive problem. I don't mind going near a nuclear plant, they are unlikely to go badly wrong, and quite safe in operation, but I wouldn't want to find a spent fuel rod lying about. We need to keep them secure for a very long time. That is an environmental issue.
I know. The point is that people (not necessarily you) freak out about the waste while ignoring the fact that coal plants are constantly spewing radiation into the environment.

A fission plant creates a relatively small amount of very highly active waste - however, by the very nature of it being highly active it is only a risk for years. We can (and have) managed to deal with this problem - on-site storage in water pools is a viable option.

It generates a large amount of lower level waste that's going to be active for tens of thousands of years. Again though, this isn't a major problem since the activity level is low enough that vitrification and ocean disposal is perfectly safe and feasible.

The real problem is the medium level waste - it's hot enough to be dangerous and will be for hundreds of years. Personally my favoured way to deal with this is deep burial in stable bedrock, but you run into the ultimate NIMBY objections.

Point being, there are viable options for dealing with the waste - if only the general public was scientifically literate enough to assess them on a rational rather than emotional basis.
 

HSTEd

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Becquerels released is not a measure of the waste, it is a measure of the leakage. The waste is still a massive problem. I don't mind going near a nuclear plant, they are unlikely to go badly wrong, and quite safe in operation, but I wouldn't want to find a spent fuel rod lying about. We need to keep them secure for a very long time. That is an environmental issue.

The waste is very dangerous but there are only really small quantities of it.
Keeping it under control by placing it in engineered underground facilities works out really rather cheap.
It costs tens to hundreds of dollars per kilogram of high level waste, but you make potentially tens of thousands of dollars of electricity with each kilo.

Wind turbines consume an order of magnitude more steel and concrete than a nuclear plant does (including disposal) per megawatt, and the wind turbine lasts for less time and has a lower capacity factor.

Best estimates for borehole disposal for CANDU fuel in South Korea puts the cost at about $600 per 20kg fuel assembly.
Each assembly has the eequivalent heating value as about 400 tonnes of coal.
 
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Point being, there are viable options for dealing with the waste - if only the general public was scientifically literate enough to assess them on a rational rather than emotional basis.

I do understand, and I am not against nuclear done well, and carefully, but I do think if someone is concerned about nuclear waste, responding with facts unrelated to the issue of waste is not the best argument. I looks like you are avoiding telling the truth about the problems. You last post is a much more honest assessment to my mind.

The waste is very dangerous but there are only really small quantities of it.

Yes, but as najaB has said, the medium level waste is the most problematic. There is more of that. And you have to maintain the storage facilities long after the plant has shut down. So it tends to become a governments job to deal with that, and the costs are not guaranteed.

Every source of energy has positives and negatives. So having a bit of many of them balances the different costs, and risks. Fossil fuels are on the way out, although they still have a part to play for a while yet, but renewables are on the way in.

And steel can be recycled, and maybe even some of the concrete can be reused, even if just reusing the foundations to put a new turbine on. You can't say that about large amounts of the materials used to make a nuclear plant.
 

HSTEd

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Yes, but as najaB has said, the medium level waste is the most problematic. There is more of that.
That depends, with modern fuel cycle choices and abandoning any attempt to reprocess or any of that, medium level waste can be reduced in volume rather drastically.
Vitrification of things like ion exchange resins from the plant and the like reduces the volumes by an order of magnitude.
And you have to maintain the storage facilities long after the plant has shut down. So it tends to become a governments job to deal with that, and the costs are not guaranteed.
Any reasonable electricity system is owned by the government anyway, given the very long lifetimes of the equipment in it..... and the costs, whilst not guaranteed, can be incurred primarily during or immediately after plant life if the decision is made to do so.

The reason we sit around without a "solution" is because the cost of the solution goes down every year as the heat load of the radioactive material decreases by natural decay.

Coming back in a hundred years and handling the waste then is actually a very low cost strategy.

And steel can be recycled, and maybe even some of the concrete can be reused, even if just reusing the foundations to put a new turbine on. You can't say that about large amounts of the materials used to make a nuclear plant.

Well I can, just takes us a long time to get around to it.
There are numerous companies that specialise in recycling steel and similar inputs from decommissioning nuclear facilities now.
And concrete does degrade over time, otherwise nuclear plants could be made to last a lot longer than ~60 years.

The cheapest thing to do with a decommissioning plant is nothing for the first several decades, as long as the plant is not falling down it is very much cheaper to do nothing until most of the radioactivity is gone.

But the material advantage of the nuclear plant is so large that even if wind turbines could perfectly recycle and nuclear reactors could not recycle at all, it would still take centuries to catch up.
 

HSTEd

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RE: Nuclear power plant waste

As an example, the Point Lepreau Generating Station in New Brunswick has produced 143TWh of electricity over it's lifetime so far.

It's waste inventory amounts to 158 cubic metres of intermediate waste, 2,568 cubic metres of LLW, and about 700t of spent fuel.

That means we are looking at about 1 cubic metre of ILW, 18 cubic metres of LLW and ~5t of spent fuel per TWh of electricity.

Total UK electricity consumption is about 315TWh, which means we would expect to amass 1575t of spent fuel, 315 cubic metres of ILW and 5670 cubic metres of LLW per annum.
Each of the vaults at the Low Level Waste Repository at Drigg in Cumbria has a capacity of 200,000 cubic metres, so each one could dispose of roughly 35 years of material.

1575 tonnes of spent fuel sounds like a lot but remember uranium oxide has a specific gravity of ten, so we are looking at about 500 cubic metres of high and intermediate level waste.

500 cubic metres a year, or roughly two olympic swimming pools every decade. For all our electricity

The waste problem is not large.
 

najaB

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I do understand, and I am not against nuclear done well, and carefully, but I do think if someone is concerned about nuclear waste, responding with facts unrelated to the issue of waste is not the best argument. I looks like you are avoiding telling the truth about the problems.
It's not unrelated. In my experience 9 out of 10 people who object to nuclear power because of the waste has very little idea just how truly catastrophic coal-fired power plants are with respect to radiation they release into the environment. I would much rather live next to a well-maintained high-level nuclear waste storage facility than a well-maintained coal power plant.
 

edwin_m

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najaB

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Following on from LU and Crossrail, HS2 is looking at extracting waste heat from tunnels for domestic heating purposes.
Or, looking at it another way: HS2 plans to install tunnel cooling systems. :D
 

InTheEastMids

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Thanks to the way the electricity market works, comparing CfD prices is not a good way to compare the true subsidy of electricity from various sources.
As wind turbines have a somewhat coordinated output, low capacity factor, and very low marginal costs of operation, we can lead to a phenomenon of "price collapse" where the average price at which their electricity can be sold on the market ends up being substantially lower than the average price of electricity on the system.

This is a good point, but the bigger point is that the role of the energy market and prices you're talking about include a set of assumptions about how the electricity system works that are becoming less and less true. It's not a commodity if the marginal cost of production is close to zero so it's just silly to try and trade it like it's worth something. It's capacity that motivates investors these days. The CfD auctions are effectively auctions for capacity of different types. The Capacity Auction at least is honest about what it's for.

. there is a reason virtually noone else has been stupid enough to build a nuclaer power station in a western "free market"

Given the record of private Vs public sector investment, it's entirely reasonable to contend that what you're actually saying here is that the private sector is not stupid enough to invest in nuclear.

And when the wind doesn't blow in the winter, we will burn huge quantities of natural gas

It won't by definition be large quantities, because you say yourself that the capacity is only needed for a relatively small number of days, rather than running baseload (which drove a coach and horses through the wholesale-market business case for conventional generation). .

It's not unrelated. In my experience 9 out of 10 people who object to nuclear power because of the waste has very little idea just how truly catastrophic coal-fired power plants are with respect to radiation they release into the environment.

This is not really a relevant comparison, because nobody is talking about building more coal-fired power plants in the UK, and the expectation is that in 6 years they'll be done.
 

najaB

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This is not really a relevant comparison, because nobody is talking about building more coal-fired power plants in the UK, and the expectation is that in 6 years they'll be done.
Today, nobody is talking about it. But not that long ago nobody was talking about building new coal-fired power plants in Germany either, then they were.

There are a lot of people who are vehemently opposed to nuclear power, but who also want their lights to stay on. The political/social environment can change surprisingly quickly.

Edit: Interestingly, RWE announced yesterday that they aren't going ahead with their new 1GWe lignite-fired plant. That changing political/social environment again!
 
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