Break of journey

[Bob M]

I travelled from Christchurch to Winsford on December 30, using a standard off-peak return, not London, with a senior railcard. On December 31, I returned as far as Winchester. The London Midland conductor wrote "31/12" in fat felt tip on my ticket!

On January 18 I tried to use the ticket to complete the journey from Winchester to Christchurch. The barrier at Winchester didn't accept the ticket, and neither did the SWT man on the barrier. He claimed that a break of journey was only allowed if I completed the whole trip on the same day, and I was forced to buy a new single ticket.

I thought that break of journey was allowed on this ticket, and the journey could be completed any time during the validity of the ticket.

Am I right, or was the SWT barrier man right?

 

[yorkie]

You were right. The SWT barrier person has been badly trained (as usual for barrier staff). You should refuse to pay and ask for the barrier person's name, and ask to speak to a manager. If you have paid extra, write to SWT asking for a refund and apology and compensation for your time.

SWT have a habit of failing to adhere to the rules.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, you were right, although this matter is very poorly briefed to the majority of railway staff.

The wording on break of journey with Saver tickets (Off Peak Returns) is as follows:

#4 - Break of Journey

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey does continue into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply (except where regarded as an unbroken continuation of the previous days' travel where the first connection of the day may be taken). No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). If a passenger is still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.

The common misconception is that the rules regarding break of journey on the outward leg also apply to the return, which by reading the above is fairly obvious that they don't.

On the outward leg (unless a restriction code says you can't - which in the Christchurch - Winsford fare it doesn't) you can break your journey overnight only once, and your journey must re-commence before 12noon the following day.

On the return journey paragraph there is no mention of any such restriction, so therefore it is perfectly valid to go from Winsford - Winchester and then use the later part a day or week later.

NOW, unfortunately you will often run into problems if you do this. Partly a) due to poor staff training and b) because I suspect that the majority of staff will think the passenger is on to a fiddle, especially if you are nearer the end of your journey than the beginning. For example, the revenue man on the barrier will probably be thinking "this ticket has already been used, I bet he has gone all the way to Christchurch and is now trying to use it again and again and again and again for this back end of the journey". Now I know this isn't the attitude to take, but unfortunately there are a very large number of people out there who will try every fiddle under the sun to avoid paying their correct fare, or re-use tickets etc, so you will probably find the majority of railway staff will be thinking you are up to no good!

 

[Ferret]

Yes, you were right, although this matter is very poorly briefed to the majority of railway staff.

The wording on break of journey with Saver tickets (Off Peak Returns) is as follows:



The common misconception is that the rules regarding break of journey on the outward leg also apply to the return, which by reading the above is fairly obvious that they don't.

On the outward leg (unless a restriction code says you can't - which in the Christchurch - Winsford fare it doesn't) you can break your journey overnight only once, and your journey must re-commence before 12noon the following day.

On the return journey paragraph there is no mention of any such restriction, so therefore it is perfectly valid to go from Winsford - Winchester and then use the later part a day or week later.

NOW, unfortunately you will often run into problems if you do this. Partly a) due to poor staff training and b) because I suspect that the majority of staff will think the passenger is on to a fiddle, especially if you are nearer the end of your journey than the beginning. For example, the revenue man on the barrier will probably be thinking "this ticket has already been used, I bet he has gone all the way to Christchurch and is now trying to use it again and again and again and again for this back end of the journey". Now I know this isn't the attitude to take, but unfortunately there are a very large number of people out there who will try every fiddle under the sun to avoid paying their correct fare, or re-use tickets etc, so you will probably find the majority of railway staff will be thinking you are up to no good!

Thing is, as staff, if you're going to go down the road of claiming somebody is on the fiddle, you need to be damn sure if your ground. If in doubt, I'll stamp it and walk on by because I'm reluctant to dig myself into a hole! What I will say to those intending to break a journey is if you can get the Guard to write on the back of the ticket where you've used it from/to and on what date, that does remove some of the potential for farce. Certainly if a customer tells me he/she's breaking a journey, I write on the back of it as a matter of course, for their benefit as much as ours. Saves unnecessary grief of the kind the OP describes...

 

[embers25]

Yet again SWT staff fail miserably on knowledge of restrictions and yet again a person is forced to buy a new ticket meaning more profit for SWT unless thy bother to claim a refund. Why are they still allowed to get away without training their staff. Every other company pretty much follow the rules except SWT. Surely it's theft and SWT should be subject to prosecution?!!

 

[Max]

Yet again SWT staff fail miserably on knowledge of restrictions and yet again a person is forced to buy a new ticket meaning more profit for SWT unless thy bother to claim a refund. Why are they still allowed to get away without training their staff. Every other company pretty much follow the rules except SWT. Surely it's theft and SWT should be subject to prosecution?!!

I'm pretty sure barrier staff are poorly trained generally. For example, some Scotrail stations have got notoriously bad reputations for their barrier staff.

 

[Capybara]

I'd be interested to know what constitutes a 'break' of journey as opposed to a 'completed' one. For example, I regularly travel from Vauxhall to a station in Surrey, just outside London. The machine at Vauxhall sells me an Anytime Day Return (or Off Peak if I'm running late). The ticket it sells is from and returning to London Terminals which is great as I usually return to Waterloo. However, I do on a minority of occasions finish my journey at Vauxhall, where I started, and the barrier takes my ticket. Supposing I wished to 'break' my journey at Vauxhall and continue on to Waterloo on a later train? Interestingly, the new barriers at Waterloo do actually return my ticket.

 

[dan_atki]

Vauxhall is, for some reason, a London Terminal.

Saying that, you are, to all intents and purposes, well within your rights to ask for your ticket back to continue your journey to Waterloo/London Bridge/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars/City Thameslink later on.

The ticket barriers at Waterloo were specifically set up to return London Terminals tickets for the very reason that several people wish to continue their journey via Waterloo East to one of the above stations, as permitted by the ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought a while ago that ticket barriers at stations such do a quick print on the ticket to say the date and time it went through the barrier rather than eating the ticket. A bit like continential systems when you buy a dateless ticket and validate it when entering a platform.

Then in the OP's case it shows you used a exited a station part way along your journey and should clear you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ticket barriers at Waterloo were specifically set up to return London Terminals tickets for the very reason that several people wish to continue their journey via Waterloo East to one of the above stations, as permitted by the ticket.

That causes problems in places like Manchester and Liverpool. If you arrive on a long distance service at Manchester Piccadilly or Liverpool Lime Street they sometimes try to take your ticket off you even if you want to get on a local service to Manchester Deansgate or Liverpool James Street, which are both permitted.

 

[Capybara]

Vauxhall is, for some reason, a London Terminal.

Saying that, you are, to all intents and purposes, well within your rights to ask for your ticket back to continue your journey to Waterloo/London Bridge/Charing Cross/Cannon Street/Blackfriars/City Thameslink later on.

The ticket barriers at Waterloo were specifically set up to return London Terminals tickets for the very reason that several people wish to continue their journey via Waterloo East to one of the above stations, as permitted by the ticket.

Coo. So if I fancied continuing to Charing Cross or London Bridge I could do on the same ticket? But wouldn't going to London Bridge be, effectively, heading out of London again?

 

[Soton Jamie]

Now I know this isn't the attitude to take, but unfortunately there are a very large number of people out there who will try every fiddle under the sun to avoid paying their correct fare, or re-use tickets etc, so you will probably find the majority of railway staff will be thinking you are up to no good!

This is true, but due to poor ticket inspections on trains, this is quite easy to get away with. I've regularly got the train between Brighton and Southampton and although Southern have some of the friendliest and most helpful staff I've come accross and they check tickets, I've rarely had mine stamped.

It should be easy to date a ticket on every journey so that the is complete transparity and thus eradicating ticket misuse and staff suspicion.

With the Soton tunnel closure and the lack of barriers at Woolston, I could've used the return portion of my ticket at least 7 times had I been so inclined

 

[dan_atki]

Coo. So if I fancied continuing to Charing Cross or London Bridge I could do on the same ticket? But wouldn't going to London Bridge be, effectively, heading out of London again?

Indeed it is valid. There is no indication (at least in the public domain) to say when a London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid, but it doesn't appear to be at the first London Terminal you arrive at.

SWT, in their 'e-motion' magazine, published an FAQ about the new barriers at Waterloo, which had a question about continuing to Charing Cross or London Bridge on a London Terminals ticket. They said the barriers would return the ticket to permit onward travel as allowed by the ticket.

Generally speaking, any ticket from a SWT/Southern/Southeastern station to 'London Terminals' is valid at all of: Victoria, Vauxhall, Waterloo, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, and City Thameslink.

I'm yet to find a journey in the south east that prohibits use of maps LB/LD/LK/LL/NK in the Routeing Guide to allow these journeys. SC and SL also provide some flexibility (in a roundabout way).

The interpretation I have, judging by the fact these routes exist in the Routeing Guide, is that a London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid at the last terminal you enter (without doubling back through the same station twice). I presume it's like this for the flexibility around the London Bridge/Waterloo areas.

 

[glynn80]

The interpretation I have, judging by the fact these routes exist in the Routeing Guide, is that a London Terminals ticket ceases to be valid at the last terminal you enter (without doubling back through the same station twice). I presume it's like this for the flexibility around the London Bridge/Waterloo areas.

Your pretty much correct in all your assumptions.

London Terminals tickets are valid to any London Terminal listed on a permitted route as stated within the routeing guide. The obvious exception is that London Terminals tickets do not permit travel between St Pancras International, Farringdon and City Thameslink on the ‘Thameslink’ route

 

[Capybara]

Thanks. Some of that may well come in useful in the near future. I can't get over Vauxhall being a 'London Terminal' mind.

 

[A60K]

Thanks. Some of that may well come in useful in the near future. I can't get over Vauxhall being a 'London Terminal' mind.

Perhaps it's a 160 year hangover from Nine Elms

 

[Ian99]

Would someone explain the above reference to Nine Elms please?

 

[323235]

what are the rules regarding Overnight BOJ with Anytime Return's.

i.e. Can you break and resume the journey within 5 days,whilst travelling on the outward portion?

 

[yorkie]

Would someone explain the above reference to Nine Elms please?

I hadn't heard of it before, but I found this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Elms_railway_station

what are the rules regarding Overnight BOJ with Anytime Return's.

i.e. Can you break and resume the journey within 5 days,whilst travelling on the outward portion?

Yes you can. But expect to be asked to show the (unused) return portion if travelling after the first date that the ticket is valid for.