First Class (London Midland) - never enforced/checked - what to do?

[AndyBluestar]

Hi,

Since November 2007 I have written dozens of emails to London Midland, phoned many times and attended meet/greet sessions with managers to complain about effective de-classification of 1st class. 30% more for a 1st class weekly ticket, but because there are never any checks, the compartments are filled with standard fare paying passengers. Seats are rare on the 7.34, my regular train, so I'm paying for nothing. Even when I take a service which has seats, the compartment is noisy and busy, filling up at Bushey or Harrow. People taking for free that which I pay extra for.

In one year ( 2008 ), I had my ticket checked 8 times in over 300 journeys. On the rare occasion the guard checked, the passengers without valid tickets simply scampered into the other compartments.

The emails of complaint that were replied to have offered feeble excuses or asserted that they will do something about it. The managers I've spoken to have said it's one of the most common complaints. There has never been an improvment.

My concern is that all of my requests for compensation or refund of the difference between standard and 1st fare have gone ignored. I have asked many times.

The train is rarely so busy the guard cannot pass through. Even with the class of train where the guards compartment has a door to first class and it's occupied, there is still no sign of a check. I've asked why no checks were made and been presented with many different excuses. No working ticket machine, not allowed to leave the compartment, too busy.

So, do you think I'm entitled to some sort of compensation? It's clear and evident that 1st class doesn't actually exist, as it's an area available to anyone. What would be my next step to escalate this since London Midland have ignored my requests for comepnsation and their promises over 2 years have gone without action.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

Regards

Andy

 

[Dewedin]

Passenger Focus would probably love to hear from you.

 

[Pumbaa]

Hi Andy,

A commuter who lived a few doors down from me (I lived in Hemel until recently) noted down which train he was on every day, and whether or not the 1st compartment was ticket checked. Weekly he sent his mini-report to LM. Within a few weeks he noticed that ticket checks were increasing, but he was still being fobbed with Std passengers using 1st.

Unfortunately, ex-Silverlink guards are very lazy when it comes to ticket checks. It is rare to have ticket checks during Peaks. Unfortunately, with the current unease within the company, it is partly that Guards are unwilling to risk getting arsey passengers with LMs shoddy performance by trying to earn LM extra revenue, and that with the pay deal still in limbo, ie LM have been forced to cough up extra cash as they can't be arsed to negotiate further with the guards.

Passenger focus I imagine would be keen to hear from you; it might be worth submitting your findings to them too as well as LM. Unfortunately I don't know of the outcome as I moved away, although to somewhere where I'm still unfortunate enough to suffer LM!

 

[AndyBluestar]

The guards are certanly very lazy, that much is obvious. What an easy job!

Thanks for the help.

 

[Mojo]

It seems common on LM not to perform checks. On trains like 321s or 323s with a few mins between stops and one or two door panels per train it is understandable, but it even happens on 350s and I've done a number of longer distance journeys (eg. London to Birmingham and London to Liverpool) recently with no ticket checks by the guard.

When I travelled down to London recently I noticed what look like DOO CCTV cameras being installed at Wolverton and a few other stations. Are these actually what I thought they are? Hopefully there is a plan to have the drivers operate the doors, but given the fuss a certain few would kick up it seems doubtful.

 

[CarterUSM]

I really do hope that isn't the case. No to DOO for me i'm afraid. With regards to the query, getting in touch with passenger focus is a great idea, but how about just buying a standard pass and still taking advantage of first class? I know two wrongs don't make a right but it seems as you have been putting up with this for some time then action would be justified. All as above board as you could possibly make it I mean, with perhaps a letter or e-mail to their headquarters explaining your actions. I'd be pretty much seething if it was myself.

 

[Capybara]

Is there actually a point to First Class any more? The only time I have used it in the past has been when my employer was paying and I wanted to get some work done. If you were on the right train you could get a table and spread out and it was a very efficient use of tiime. But now on longer distance trains you often see many of the seats reserved - particularly on East Coast and its predecessors - often, presumably by people paying for cheap advance tickets. So that's the extra space and quiet option out of the window. Then on commuter trains, I regularly see SWT trains coming through Clapham Junction towards London with people standing in First Class, and that's not all that pleasant a situation even if you have a seat. Also, we discussed on another thread recently how poor the First Class is in 377s. And now this.

 

[CarterUSM]

Perhaps if they employed a few ticket examiners then action could be taken against out of class offenders. I know this adding to the wage bill scenario would leave a bad taste in the mouth for the company though and is therefore a non option.

 

[Pumbaa]

When I travelled down to London recently I noticed what look like DOO CCTV cameras being installed at Wolverton and a few other stations. Are these actually what I thought they are? Hopefully there is a plan to have the drivers operate the doors, but given the fuss a certain few would kick up it seems doubtful.

The Wolverton cameras were never removed when the WCML local was kitted years ago. There's no plan to fit DOO to LM on the WCML. What other stations did you see them on?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It seems common on LM not to perform checks. On trains like 321s or 323s with a few mins between stops and one or two door panels per train it is understandable, but it even happens on 350s and I've done a number of longer distance journeys (eg. London to Birmingham and London to Liverpool) recently with no ticket checks by the guard.

The ex-CT guards are a heck of a lot better than ex-STS guards. Funny you should say that - on both the Liverpool - Brum and Crewe - London, I've always been checked.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have never seen the point in having First Class if you have no on board staff to enforce it. For that matter, I have never understood the point of having DOO trains and then having no onboard staff to check tickets. When I lived and worked in the London & South East area I regularly travelled around South London, and also out of Liverpool St towards Harlow / Bishops Stortford and further beyond up to Cambridge. I could probably count the number of times any ticket check was carried out over the 3.5 years I was there on the fingers of one hand. TOCs will of course argue that barriers at stations are a better way of enforcing revenue. Well that may be so in some cases, but as barriers only seemed to be manned at peak times, and they are not in use at every station then the level of fare evasion must be horrendous.

When at work I place particular importance on tickets and whichever route I am on (North or North West TPE) at any time of the day I will do my best to get off my backside and do my job. The odd exception to this is when the train is too busy to get down.

Just as an aside, and slightly related, I went down to Salisbury last week visiting family for a day. Here is the summary of ticket checks carried out:

Day 1:
Keighley - Leeds ( 4 intermediate stops). 0 ticket checks.
Leeds - Kings Cross (4 intermediate stops). 1 full ticket check between Doncaster and Peterborough.
Waterloo - Salisbury. (4 intermediate stops). 1 full ticket check between Clapham Junction & Woking.

Day 2:
Salisbury - Bristol (5 intermediate stops). 1 call over ticket check between Bradford on Avon & Bath Spa.
Bristol - Cardiff (4 intermediate stops). 0 ticket checks.
Cardiff - Cheltenham Spa. (2 intermediate stops). 0 ticket checks.
Cheltenham Spa - Leeds (6 intermediate stops). 2 ticket checks. Both Call overs - 1 after Cheltenham and 1 after Birmingham.

Now with the exception of the "Intercity" trains where it is not always possible due to train length and other duties, I cannot understand why no more than 1 check was made on a quiet 2 car 158, or why no checks were made on a 3 car 170. There may have been reasons, but none of the these trains (except LDS - KGX and CNM - LDS) were at all busy, people did join at intermediate unmanned or ungated stations and no announcements saying why no tickets were being done was made. In the case of the CrossCountry service a load of scroats got on at Gloucester and proceeded to be loud and obnoxious until they alighted at Cheltenham. I know they had no tickets as I overheard them all talking about how they never paid as no one ever came down and if they did one lad was telling his mate just to claim he had no money as they couldn't do anything about it. Oh yes and they all went and plonked themselves in first class.

Now If I can get off my backside and do my job properly why can't others?? It always always drives me round the bend.

With many trains being the same I often wonder why people often bother to buy tickets at all?

 

[yorkie]

What would be my next step to escalate this since London Midland have ignored my requests for comepnsation and their promises over 2 years have gone without action.

I don't think you can get a season for longer than 12 months, so it could be argued that, if you are saying the situation is the same over the past 2 years then you've made that choice knowing it's not good value. It would make sense to switch to a standard class ticket. I would write to them, telling them that you are switching to standard as there is no point paying for first class. If everyone did that they'd have to take action.

The problem is that the RMT love this sort of job where guards can just do nothing between stations stops. I've used this route quite a lot and it is surprising to get a ticket check. The RMT are throwing a major wobbler in Scotland where the door duties are going to drivers on a new route, and that means that someone actually checks tickets constantly on those trains as they have no excuse to hide like on LM services out of Euston & SWT inner suburbans.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now If I can get off my backside and do my job properly why can't others??

Probably down to the culture at certain depots and/or in certain organisations.

Do you know of someone at TPE (based at YRK possibly) who goes out of his way to give excellent connection advice? He doesn't have it all memorised, unlike a certain XC guard (based at NCL) but will go out of his way to look them up and advise on the best place to change and what platforms the trains should be on. I can't remember the name of either of them now, but if they spring to mind I'll send you a PM. Not seen either of them recently though but I travel less now there's no decent traction and I'm offered more lifts and the prices are ludicrous. Anyway there are some very good guards out there and passengers do appreciate them.

 

[CarterUSM]

I may have mentioned this on another thread but this just does not happen on scotrail, transport scotland set them various targets in relation to stations, train cleanliness, operations and also revenue collection, amongst a load of other things, there is a penalty for not meeting these
Schedules, as they are called. With relation to revenue collection on train by a guard or ticket examiner, if they are seen not to be carrying out their revenue duties by an auditor then it's a straight fail, falling below the set benchmark results in a 'fine' of quite a substantial amount of money, conversely going above and beyond the benchmark results in a financial 'reward' for the company. It's probably the most strict regime in britain imposed on a franchisee and thus has resulted in staff being hammered if duties are not carried out. Obviously exceptions can be made for guards carrying out certain operational responsibilites in lieu of revenue, but it's worked out well in general for the passengers even if it could be far better in other aspects.

 

[royaloak]

The RMT are throwing a major wobbler in Scotland where the door duties are going to drivers on a new route, and that means that someone actually checks tickets constantly on those trains as they have no excuse to hide like on LM services out of Euston & SWT inner suburbans.

On SWT most inner suburban trains have a non-commercial guard on board, so wouldnt do a ticket check anyway!

 

[Bellwater]

With regard to not being able to get down and do tickets, there was an incident where the Guard was going through doing Revenue checks and, with the passengers being ignorant as usual, he was trying to get through, asking politely and one of the passengers accused him of "hitting" him.

The Company in Question backed the Passenger over the Guard. :roll:

Going back to First Class, i used to rigidly enforce it until it got to the point where i had to declassify it. Do Standard Class ST Holders stand, or sit on the floor, in First down there if there's no seats? i always chucked them out.

 

[222007]

I've only used London Midland on 3 occasions in the past 12 months and as staff for XC i was interested to see how they compared to myself. The first trip was Crewe-Nuneaton where 1 check was completed although i dont think the guard was very well as he visited the loo on no less than 4 occasions. The other 2 occasions were both travelling on them during work between Nuneaton and coventry, the outward journey 1 check was made (although no1 got on at bedworth) the second journey the guard never came out the cab at all.

 

[yorkie]

On SWT most inner suburban trains have a non-commercial guard on board, so wouldnt do a ticket check anyway!

Exactly, which is just daft. The Strathclyde model is far, far, better and makes the trains safer.

 

[cuccir]

Going back to First Class, i used to rigidly enforce it until it got to the point where i had to declassify it. Do Standard Class ST Holders stand, or sit on the floor, in First down there if there's no seats? i always chucked them out.

I never quite understand why there are first class areas on a lot of smaller trains, particularly commuter ones. A friend always used to complain that Southeastern would rigidly prevent customers from using the (often empty) First Class portion of full commuter trains when she used to travel into London from Meopham in the mornings; TPE have always seemed much more flexible in declassifying in my experience. Obviously 1st Class brings in more revenue but surely on short commuter services the extra people who can be squeezed in would make up the loss?

 

[jon0844]

If you declassify first class, anyone paying more money would have the right to ask for a refund for the difference.

It would probably make more sense to only operate first class on longer routes, which is often the case. The problem is there's no easy way to make it clear when something is declassified (and those who 'know' would like it to stay that way).

FCC did for a while place up signs saying 'declassified' but I guess they quickly realised how difficult it would be to make sure the signs were up at the right times.. and who's job would it have been to go around putting them up and taking them down?

I suppose on a modern train, the information screens could give that detail. But, you'd have to stop making it possible to get first class tickets for the stations that would enable someone to pay for first but not get the full benefit.

FCC could easily maintain first for the fast London to Cambridge services, but that's about it. First class enforcement is a joke, as staff will normally let people move - so what's the risk for those 'upgrading' themselves?

 

[jopsuk]

I do find it amusing that an FCC morning peak Cambridge-London train has SIX first class compartments (carriages 1, 4, 5, 8, 9 & 12)- how much enforcement is there? Do RPIs pick one unit to blitz, or does a whole mob do a spot check of the whole train (no end-gangways).

Going further OT, if it was up to me, FCC, Southeastern, Southern (except Gatwick Express), SWT (except 444 services), FGW (other than HSS), most of LM*, EMT (except MML) and NXEA (except Norwich 90+mrk3 services) would lose all first class. Basically make FC something only present on Intercity type trains.

*remeber, for most longer LM journies Virgin provide a faster alternative that has FC.

 

[westcoaster]

When i was an STS guard i did do checks most of the time, for example tring terminators you only had 2 chances to do ticket checks on the journey, one between euston and harrow ( forget about it in the evening peak except 1st class behind the cab (321's not 350's), and the second was between watford and kings langley, it was the same going south.
Nothampton semi's plenty of time to do 3-4 checks euston/watford, berko/leighton buzzard, wolverton/n'hampton.
Northampton fasts, euston/leighton buzzard, wolverton/n'hampton.
All stations nochance apart from euston/harrow.

Now im not saying checks are not done, but as guards we were not issued with oyster readers, so alot of the passengers traveling south/north to harrow would have these and of course had no way of checking validity, also the company cut the commission rate on ticket sales from iirc 10% over 200 pound a week in sales, to 2% over 200 pounds , so alot of the incentive to do the checks was eroded, plus i hear LM are not endearing them selves to staff, so there may be a backlash going on.
And if remember rightly a guard lost his job for gbh/abh for getting fare evaders of a train, so if i were still a guard i would think to my self "if i chuck him off, i might loose my job" which then might make me not want to do checks.

 

[jopsuk]

Surely passengers travelling on Oyster tickets shouldn't be in 1st class, as no Oyster 1st class fares exist as far as I'm aware? So that would be simple enough with regards to 1st class enforcement.

 

[AndyBluestar]

Now im not saying checks are not done, but as guards we were not issued with oyster readers, so alot of the passengers traveling south/north to harrow would have these and of course had no way of checking validity, also the company cut the commission rate on ticket sales from iirc 10% over 200 pound a week in sales, to 2% over 200 pounds , so alot of the incentive to do the checks was eroded, plus i hear LM are not endearing them selves to staff, so there may be a backlash going on.
And if remember rightly a guard lost his job for gbh/abh for getting fare evaders of a train, so if i were still a guard i would think to my self "if i chuck him off, i might loose my job" which then might make me not want to do checks.

I'm saying checks are not done. Guards are frequently not issued with any working ticket machines, apparently, according to the number of times I've been given this excuse when asking why no check was done. On 321 class trains when the guard is sat on the other side of the door to the 1st class compartment, they can't even be bothered to get up to check. 8 checks in 300 journeys (in one year, though my emails show this has been the case since LM took over the franchise - I was emailing Silverlink for 1 year prior to that too) suggests to me that the 1st class has been effectively declassified. this is why I'm claiming a refund of the difference in my ticket price for 2 years. I have asked many times how they would like to process this refund or claim for compensation but this request has been ignored. I'm not sure if this is a county court issue, but from what I can tell, with the evidence I have and the fact LM have ignored repeated requests to resolve this, I will win.

I gave them one last chance to reply at the end of last year, but I was met with silence. I copied in a few people, from customer service manager to MD. Nobody replied. This lack of action/reply, should I go to court, will win me the case.

I've got names from a dozen other 1st class passengers who are happy to sign statements that they have had a similar experience and experience no ticket checks for months.

It does seem to me that a train guard has one of the easiest jobs in the world.

Aside from that, RPIs should be employed. apparently they are, but they are never seen before 10am. Another easy job.

 

[33056]

Aside from that, RPIs should be employed. apparently they are, but they are never seen before 10am. Another easy job.

LM do have RPIs, it is just that they appear to use them only on barriers at places like Euston and Watford and on the "Abbey Flyer". They also start earlier than 1000, I regularly see one of them going to work well before 0600 some mornings. Having said that, I can't remember the last time that I saw an RPI on an LM train (or a guard going through checking tickets!)

 

[Pumbaa]

LM do have RPIs, it is just that they appear to use them only on barriers at places like Euston and Watford and on the "Abbey Flyer". They also start earlier than 1000, I regularly see one of them going to work well before 0600 some mornings. Having said that, I can't remember the last time that I saw an RPI on an LM train (or a guard going through checking tickets!)

RPIs rotate through barries on Euston, Watford, Hemel, Berko, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley and MK. They do not do on-train checks, however if a guard has a problem on board train, an RPI can be summoned to meet them on the train.

plus i hear LM are not endearing them selves to staff, so there may be a backlash going on.

Westcoaster: ex-STS guards that I've been speaking to, this seems to be the crux. I caught one on Monday last, he came out of the cab to check a faulty door, got chatting as he passed, boiled down to the fact that despite the train was running Eus - Watford - MK, he was not intending to do any ticket checks, nor were his colleagues. As far as they're concerned, as I mentioned in my earlier post, until LM sorts out its attitude problem and turns itself around, Guards are straight out refusing to aid LM in keeping their coffers filled up. Ex-CT guards don't seem to be as bitter mind you though.

 

[First class]

Actually, LM RPIs (since PFs got extended) have been at:

Crewe (working trains as they've arrived i.e. when one pulls in, some of them check those getting off, whilst another few go through the train before it departs again.)
Liverpool Lime Street (human barriers)
Liverpool South Parkway (working with Merseyrail staff) - today actually!

The ones at Crewe were there IRRC about 8.30am, Lime Street for a good few hours and Parkway for about 4-5 trains around the am peak.

Merseyrail RPIs have the right to charge a Penalty Fare under an agreement with London Midland apparently, I imagine this would just be at South Parkway though.

 

[Pumbaa]

Ah good to know. Previous to your info FC, I only knew of RPI arrangements on the ex-STS lines.

 

[tony_mac]

I saw an interesting one today - the guard went through after every station until a group of about a dozen schoolchildren got on.
The guard then only came out of his cab to open the doors, and when they got off 3 or 4 stops later, he started off again with a full ticket check.

Apparently, the London Midland penalty fare scheme does operate at Lime Street. I haven't seen any notices there, but I haven't been looking for them.

 

[AndyBluestar]

Ha!

Possible proof that LM management reads these forums. Announcement and a ticket check (albeit from a very disgruntled looking guard) last night and an announcement this morning. The first for months!

 

[transportphoto]

I regularly travel between Norwich NRW and London Liverpool Street LST and at both ends they have ticket barriers. It is often on these services that a full inspection is commenced between NRW and Diss and then no further check between all the open stations where people get on and then maybe get off at the next unmanned station.

Mad?!

 

[First class]

I saw an interesting one today - the guard went through after every station until a group of about a dozen schoolchildren got on.
The guard then only came out of his cab to open the doors, and when they got off 3 or 4 stops later, he started off again with a full ticket check.

Apparently, the London Midland penalty fare scheme does operate at Lime Street. I haven't seen any notices there, but I haven't been looking for them.

There are lots (at least 5) at Lime Street. Some underneath the big clock and others on Platforms 1-6 in the poster frames.

It changed from being, 'With effect from 31 January etc....' to the new ones saying it WAS in effect now.