EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

So perhaps the leave vote was motivated by others things? Or perhaps Stevenage is negatively affected by population growth and displacement of people from other nearby areas which *do* have high rates of immigration, i.e. London?

Having said that, if it's being suggested that the leave vote was motivated either by poverty (a "cry for help") or dislike of foreigners, doesn't Stevenage seem to fly in the face of this?

It might be an outlier for the former, but not the latter. As I mentioned a little while ago, many areas with low levels of immigration voted Leave.

 

[bnm]

Following the reporting and social media on Nigel Farage's Gammonball Run has cheered me up no end.

 

[Esker-pades]

@bramling said:

Attempting to put on a completely neutral hat, how on earth can remain voters feel cheated? A campaign happened, mature adults weighed up the arguments and formed their own decisions, and a government has attempted to honour the result. One might not like it, but I really don’t see how remain voters have been unfairly treated.

Because the campaign was fundamentally awful. There were a great deal of lies. If it was an election it would have been declared null and void due to campaign spending violations. Things were promised that could not have been delivered.

 

[edwin_m]

It's a bit like a family agreeing they want to move out of their town, but then not agreeing with each other where they actually want to live.

Or agreeing to buy a used car without knowing the price, then finding it's held together by rust and firing on two cylinders.

 

[bramling]

@bramling said:

Because the campaign was fundamentally awful. There were a great deal of lies. If it was an election it would have been declared null and void due to campaign spending violations. Things were promised that could not have been delivered.

Every voter was a fully grown adult. Part of adulthood is being exposed to information and opinions, weighing it all up, and forming an opinion.

Yes the campaign was crap. Both campaigns were crap. However there was plenty of fact, analysis and opinion available for those who sought it.

Blaming the campaigns is simply futile in my view. And perhaps a good argument for *increasing* the voting age - careful what one wishes for!

 

[bramling]

It might be an outlier for the former, but not the latter. As I mentioned a little while ago, many areas with low levels of immigration voted Leave.

What about Boston?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Blaming the campaigns is simply futile in my view. And perhaps a good argument for *increasing* the voting age - careful what one wishes for!

Umm, on the other hand....

Older people are almost four times more likely to have shared fake news on Facebook than the younger generation, according to research published in the journal Science.

(I imagine the most plausible non-ageist explanation would be that older generations grew up in an age when news came exclusively from professional journalists, and was therefore more reliable, leading many older people to fail to appreciate the prevalence of fake and highly misleading news on social media. On this hypothesis, younger people, who grew up with social media, are perhaps more likely to be aware of the dangers).

 

[nidave]

Every voter was a fully grown adult. Part of adulthood is being exposed to information and opinions, weighing it all up, and forming an opinion.

Yes the campaign was crap. Both campaigns were crap. However there was plenty of fact, analysis and opinion available for those who sought it.

Blaming the campaigns is simply futile in my view. And perhaps a good argument for *increasing* the voting age - careful what one wishes for!

People were lied to - they were told things would be fantastic and people would be on the phone the day after the result trying to secure trade deals - they need us more than we need them etc.. etc

‘Once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350m per week’ – Boris Johnson

‘Turkey (population 76 million) is joining the EU’ – Vote Leave publicity

Lets use an analogy.. lets say you asked me for a sandwich. 51.9% of the group also wanted a sandwich.
I poop in said sandwich and serve it to you.
By your logic you would still eat the sandwich as that's what you and the others asked for.
You would also demand those who didn't want the sandwich in the first place (filled with poo or not) eat a sandwich.

Now those who did not want the sandwich know its filled with poo are trying to stop the serving of poo filled sandwiches. and somehow they are wrong?

 

[EM2]

What about Boston?

Is nearly 85% UK-born - https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/statistics-boston-lincolnshire-4542.html. The national average is just over 86%.

 

[bramling]

People were lied to - they were told things would be fantastic and people would be on the phone the day after the result trying to secure trade deals - they need us more than we need them etc.. etc



Lets use an analogy.. lets say you asked me for a sandwich. 51.9% of the group also wanted a sandwich.
I poop in said sandwich and serve it to you.
By your logic you would still eat the sandwich as that's what you and the others asked for.
You would also demand those who didn't want the sandwich in the first place (filled with poo or not) eat a sandwich.

Now those who did not want the sandwich know its filled with poo are trying to stop the serving of poo filled sandwiches. and somehow they are wrong?

But we weren’t buying a sandwich, we were making a fundamental choice about the future of the country, which was clearly billed by Cameron as a once-in-a-lifetime irreversible decision.

 

[nidave]

But we weren’t buying a sandwich, we were making a fundamental choice about the future of the country, which was clearly billed by Cameron as a once-in-a-lifetime irreversible decision.

You do understand what an analogy is don't you? You said we all were smart enough to know the consequences of the vote (despite that being untrue as lots of people were lied to) yet you seem to unclear hat an analogy is.

the fact the decision is bad for the country and we will take years (50 years according to JRM) we cant change our minds. its a poop sandwich and you saying people should just eat it.

 

[bramling]

You do understand what an analogy is don't you? You said we all were smart enough to know the consequences of the vote (despite that being untrue as lots of people were lied to) yet you seem to unclear hat an analogy is.

the fact the decision is bad for the country and we will take years (50 years according to JRM) we cant change our minds. its a poop sandwich and you saying people should just eat it.

Your sandwich may have poo in it. Mine doesn’t!

 

[JamesT]

Because the campaign was fundamentally awful. There were a great deal of lies. If it was an election it would have been declared null and void due to campaign spending violations. Things were promised that could not have been delivered.

Politicians lie, it's what they do. Campaign spending violations do not automatically result in elections being declared null and void. The LibDems were fined for failing to declare various items after the 2015 election, this didn't result in it being rerun.
You may like to read https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/304.html which is a rejected appeal on someone seeking to have the referendum thrown out. As part of the judgement it's noted that the standard for having an election voided is that evidence has to be provided that the illegality had a material effect on the running or result of the vote. Thus far, nobody has provided evidence that this is the case.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Theresa May adding the word Patriotism to make Brexit to a success!

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel: Samuel Johnson

Boris, WRM, Farage and others seem to have made it their home recently, too.

 

[Jonny]

Every voter was a fully grown adult. Part of adulthood is being exposed to information and opinions, weighing it all up, and forming an opinion.

Yes the campaign was crap. Both campaigns were crap. However there was plenty of fact, analysis and opinion available for those who sought it.

Blaming the campaigns is simply futile in my view. And perhaps a good argument for *increasing* the voting age - careful what one wishes for!

Also, I should point out that the government agreed to implement the outcome, whichever side won. All the leave campaigners were autonomous advocates; it was part of a remain-driven plan to have us leavers screwed over before the referendum campaign had even begun. Let's face it, with a £9 million leaflet campaign against us, and the ham-stringing of no forward planning for a leave outcome, any victory for leave in 2016 was a clear victory. The possibility of a hard Brexit was always there, just as it was when MPs voted on the Withdrawal Act. Frankly if they didn't realise the full effect of the then Bill when they were voting on it then their fitness to be MPs needs to be reviewed.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Also, I should point out that the government agreed to implement the outcome, whichever side won. All the leave campaigners were autonomous advocates; it was part of a remain-driven plan to have us leavers screwed over before the referendum campaign had even begun. Let's face it, with a £9 million leaflet campaign against us, and the ham-stringing of no forward planning for a leave outcome, any victory for leave in 2016 was a clear victory. The possibility of a hard Brexit was always there, just as it was when MPs voted on the Withdrawal Act. Frankly if they didn't realise the full effect of the then Bill when they were voting on it then their fitness to be MPs needs to be reviewed.

By your own admission there was a "possibility of a hard Brexit" therefore there was a possibility of a soft one?

So that says

1 - you didn't know what you were voting for
2 - Why all the moaning about May's deal (or any deal) as that is what you voted for

 

[Groningen]

Nigel Farage did not know that a certain bridge across the Tees was closed on Sunday.

 

[dosxuk]

May's statements over the weekend have infuriated me, demanding that MPs get on board with her deal or they will be threatening Brexit. No Theresa, you've brought this on yourself. If you'd actually worked to build a consensus for the basis of a deal, rather than scheme, and hide and avoid discussing any detail with anyone outside your inner, inner circle, maybe you'd have come up with something that the majority of MPs would support. This isn't their fault that you've presented a deal which is unanimously unpopular, it's yours.

The possibility of a hard Brexit was always there

But discounted by the Leave campaigns as Project Fear.

Remember, same as the German car manufacturers were going to be telling Mrs Merkel to give us a deal on day 1 of the negotiations.

 

[Senex]

May's statements over the weekend have infuriated me, demanding that MPs get on board with her deal or they will be threatening Brexit. No Theresa, you've brought this on yourself. If you'd actually worked to build a consensus for the basis of a deal, rather than scheme, and hide and avoid discussing any detail with anyone outside your inner, inner circle, maybe you'd have come up with something that the majority of MPs would support. This isn't their fault that you've presented a deal which is unanimously unpopular, it's yours.

She made it quite clear from the start that there would be no attempt to find a compromise that might bring the 48% on board, and then she went on to negotiate a deal that didn't satisfy the more vocal members of the 52%, talking, as you say, only to her "inner, inner circle". And all along she has had the nerve to talk about a deal "for the British people" before now climbing on to the patriotic bandwagon and talking about anyone on either side of the argument who won't agree with a deal that both sides think lousy as threatening Brexit. If the term "Henry VIII powers" wasn't already in use for something else, it would be a good one to apply to the way this prime minister thinks she can operate and the relationship she seems to think parliament ought to have with her bit of the executive. The woman is an utter disgrace, but it looks as if she might well get away with it through her own effrontery and the uselessness of the Commons.

 

[Howardh]

Your sandwich may have poo in it. Mine doesn’t!

How do you know? You haven't eaten it yet! Daren't look inside first in case there's any poo, that's project fear. Believe, have faith!!

 

[DarloRich]

Great to see the March of the gammon got off to a superb start. They planned to use the transporter bridge to cross the Tees. it is always closed on a Sunday. A perfect metaphor for brexit planning right there!

( PS I note that sadly Nigel Farage wasn't able to take part in the walk. Must have had a better offer............)

 

[edwin_m]

Great to see the March of the gammon got off to a superb start. They planned to use the transporter bridge to cross the Tees. it is always closed on a Sunday. A perfect metaphor for brexit planning right there!

Will they be attepting to organise a visit to a brewery later in the journey?

 

[Mag_seven]

They planned to use the transporter bridge to cross the Tees. it is always closed on a Sunday.

Have they blamed Europe for it yet?

 

[Howardh]

Have they blamed Europe for it yet?

I believe Chris Grayling organised the route....

 

[DarloRich]

funnier still is that the numbers marching are abut 50.

 

[krus_aragon]

funnier still is that the numbers marching are abut 50.

Maybe 52(%)?

 

[DarloRich]

i wonder if more than 48 (%) turn up for the peoples vote march in London.

The people taking part in this gammonball stumble clearly believe in what they are doing and good luck to them. However they seem to be getting used by chancers, like Farage, to boost their profile. It is a shame Nige couldn't be bothered to walk the full distance with them.

 

[dosxuk]

Theresa's week just got worse. John Bercow has ruled they can't bring the meaningful vote back again without notable changes, in common with the precedent that had stood since the 1600's that the same question can't be asked twice.

 

[Howardh]

Theresa's week just got worse. John Bercow has ruled they can't bring the meaningful vote back again without notable changes, in common with the precedent that had stood since the 1600's that the same question can't be asked twice.

Very interesting, he's obviously done his homework over the weekend, May can't keep bringing it back unchanged and there's little chance of it getting changed. So now, unless their IS significant change, we need that extension immediately and the EU might allow it only for an election or further referendum (presumably on the deal or remain seeing as there's nowt else). Legally we could leave deal-less on the 29th but I bet parliament would pull out all the stops to prevent that.
I bet what will happen is the EU actually allows time for indicitive votes on a variety of outcomes until such time we decide to remain in the customs union and single market; and we could have done that months ago and Brexiteers could be preparing for their parties next week.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Or the EU plays hardball and it's withdraw A50 or leave with no deal.

Parliament has already voted not leave without a deal.

Withdrawing A50 would allow us all to cool down, decide what we really want and to negotiate with a new team: May's done for.