Hello and a question for any drivers on the forum

[royaloak]

certianly for freight drivers - a hotplate.

Not needed now, the 70s prove that.

Ducks for cover.

 

[Vulcan]

Right,

I have done some sketches and talked to my tutor about this project. I am going to take it as a proposal of a new cab for future class 66s.

Does anyone know where I can get the dimensions of a class 66 cab?

Ta

 

[TDK]

Thanks for that, its good to know that not all GM products are completely rubbish!

You mention the engine room doors opening, is this them opening on their own whilst your driving or that the opening is too small?

Also, a reccuring issue seems to be clenliness of the cab. Is this just rubbish being left around or muddy footprints. could this be solved with something as simple as a dust bin and a doormat?

Engine room doors opening on their own but this is only a rare thing now as the fitters have modified the catches, a dustbin would be a good idea but it will never be emptied except on the WSMR locos by the cleaners, I think it is educating some drivers on cleanliness, to be honest when I started on 67's they were filthy, never been cleaned properly, we ( a small group of drivers) originally took it on ourselves to clean the cabs but now they get cleaned every night to a very good standard by cleaners. I feel too many people comment on the appearance of locos and many class 66's, 67's and 70's are either ugly or boring, however from a different angle they are the best locos ever on the network carrying out the job they were designed for, entusiasts can rant on about 37's, 47's, 50's and the like but mile for mile the GM locos leave them behind for reliability, so who really cares how boring they are or how ugly they look?

 

[metrocammel]

Although not particularly relevant to English train design, with our smaller loading guages, but we could possibly take some ideas from our friends accross the North Sea.

I travelled on a DB IC train last week, where, in the DVTs, passengers have a cab-view (albeit with slightly tinted glass) For starters, the cab-view is fantastic, which was a selling point of the 1st gen DMU / EMUs in the 50s/60s. Secondly, you could literally have a disco in the cab. It was extremely spacious and clean, and beat anything on offer in the UK hands down. Top marks.

 

[George123]

Really hope that your plans are going well. It will make a difference.

 

[Vulcan]

Although I enjoy sitting behind the driver on 1st generation DMUs on preserved lines and on Manchester trams, as previously mentioned this concept is going to be a proposal for a new cab for future class 66s. I agree that all multiple units should have panoramic views from the front for passengers.

 

[royaloak]

Sod the passengers, the driver needs to be able to concentrate on what he is doing without being distracted by some chavs behind them!

 

[cawky22]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and wish you success in your design, some realy good ideas , keep them coming!

 

[Vulcan]

I have enjoyed reading this thread and wish you success in your design, some realy good ideas , keep them coming!

Thanks! I'll post some of my renders and whatnot on here when I come up with something.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have no direct experience of Cl66's so I stand to be corrected, but I have never heard any complaints about these locos being uncomfortable, difficult to work or badly equipped. The majority of complaints seem to be that they are hot and noisy.

A lot of the problem with noise in a Cl66 is as a consequence of the engine being bolted directly onto the main frame. Therefore more noise and vibrations are transmitted to the cabs than might otherwise have been the case if the engine had been mounted on a properly damped sub-frame, as is the case in some other designs. All you can really do is to pack the cabs out with more sound-proofing material, but then that only exacerbates the second problem. However, the manufacturer (EMD) claim that the latest incarnation of the Cl66 meets the latest TSI noise regulations.

I'm not entirely sure why, but these locos are supposed to be like greenhouses in the cabs and it's not uncommon to see them running around with the cab doors wedged open for extra ventilation. I have read some that some drivers believe there to be an unfortunate aerodynamic effect that draws hot air from the cooler group in through the cab windows. Either way, additional sound-proofing will only add insulation and make an already bad situation worse. EMD does offer cab A/C, but this isn't really suitable for the UK market because it sits up on the cab roof making it "out of gauge". However, it can't be beyond the wit of man to find somewhere suitable to put it where it wouldn't get ripped off the first time it went under a bridge.

I wish you all the best with your project.

O L Leigh

 

[Vulcan]

Thanks,

I chose the class 66s as I have seen a good many complaints about them and its a product that is still in production and is widely recognisable for my tutors (who are car people really rather then trains).
I suppose if I changed it to the class 70 I could also sort out it's hideous appearance
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The other option would be to propose a whole new diesel loco, but then i'd have to consider all the other technical aspects of it which I don't if I do it as a proposal for an imporvement to the 66.

 

[O L Leigh]

I appreciate that. What concerns me is that you will spend a lot of time redesigning a cab that needs little or no redesigning. If all it comes down to is better sound insulation, A/C and a more comfy chair you're going to have wasted your time, especially where a lot of the cab comfort problems on Cl66's are down to issues that have little to do with the design of the cab itself.

What might be a more profitable option would be to design a concept. It might be the ultimate in freight loco cab environments or it could be a passenger MU, it doesn't really matter which. However, you could really let your imagination run riot while addressing the real concerns of traincrew based on their experiences of existing designs. You would have to balance ergonomics, comfort, visibility and ease of use with long maintenance periods and current safety requirements. For example, how do you design a cab that permits good all-round visibility to ensure safety of operation (e.g. a clear view when undertaking shunting operations) while making sure that it is strong enough to pass crash safety standards? Equally, how do you make a cab leak/draft proof over the life of the vehicle, especially when it has a long maintenance period (door and window seals are notoriously poor and need quite a lot of maintenance intervention)?

O L Leigh

 

[moonrakerz]

In this age of extreme paranoia about absolutely everything: where you can't photograph a building without half the local nick turning up, lights flashing, sirens wailing, where you can't pick up a kiddy who has fallen over without being accused of being a paedophile, where you can't leave your suitcase for 20 secs without some people thinking you are a mad bomber - I am amazed at all the aid being freely given to Vulcan, who could actually be Osama Bin Laden.

This person is obviously a terrorist who intends to highjack a Class 66 and drive it into platform 9 and three quarters at King Cross with the intention of wiping out the entire population of Hogwarts School !

Only joking Vulcan - but I can just imagine the sort of responses you might get elsewhere in your search for information..............be careful !

 

[Vulcan]

In this age of extreme paranoia about absolutely everything: where you can't photograph a building without half the local nick turning up, lights flashing, sirens wailing, where you can't pick up a kiddy who has fallen over without being accused of being a paedophile, where you can't leave your suitcase for 20 secs without some people thinking you are a mad bomber - I am amazed at all the aid being freely given to Vulcan, who could actually be Osama Bin Laden.

This person is obviously a terrorist who intends to highjack a Class 66 and drive it into platform 9 and three quarters at King Cross with the intention of wiping out the entire population of Hogwarts School !

Only joking Vulcan - but I can just imagine the sort of responses you might get elsewhere in your search for information..............be careful !

Damn! my secret plan has been revealed!

O L Leigh, That sounds like a much better idea then was I had in mind. Are you sure your not a transport design tutor?

 

[O L Leigh]

No, I'm very definately a train driver.

It wouldn't hurt to make an approach to ASLEF explaining precisely who you are and what your interest is, and see what sort of assistance they can offer. You can pitch it as being a concept for a freight loco that meets all of the union's expectations in terms of a suitable working environment for their members in order to demonstrate what may or may not be possible.

However, the starting point is always going to be to understand precisely what is wrong with the existing fleet, what the problems are and whether the causes are the result of poor design, an inadequate specification or poor maintenance. Once the issues are well understood you can start to think about how they can be addressed. I'm not sure who here drives for the freight operators so I can't suggest who you should be approaching, but there are plenty of freight drivers on forums that are targetted more towards railstaff than enthusiasts. Otherwise there are quite a few passenger train drivers such as myself.

O L Leigh

 

[Vulcan]

One thing I ought to mention is that this is one of three concepts we have to come up with and present to our staff in the new year. Between them they wil make their suggestions as for which to take further for the final major project and build models of and suchlike. If this one is chosen to be taken further then i'll start hassling the unions and other forums

Until then I have to generate a proposal that would be good enough to be a good stand alone project in my portfolio, so at the moment i'm after ideas for that which would make a good visual impact, leaving the technical things such as specifications for soundproof materials, for if it gets to go further.

 

[Vulcan]

Right, its been a while since i've visited this thread or this project, been getting xmas and the other two concepts' boards out of the way.

I had another idea for this, please tell me if this would work / be allowed.

So a freight train is sat in a goods loop, up to the red signal and is going to be there for a while. My idea is a device that watches the signal for it to change colour, allowing the crew to get on with the important task of tea making, reading, or lunch eating. When the device spots the aspect change (and there is the technology to make this work somehow), it sounds an alarm to alert the crew. Obviously it'd only be able to be set while stationary, so theres no way it could be responsible for passing a signal at danger.

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm fairly certain it would never be allowed.

While freight crews in the "good old days" used to have different techniques (e.g. the loco fire bucket on the signal counterweight), this was all very unofficial. When a driver is in charge of a train he shouldn't really be kipping/brewing up/reading the paper/whatever. These days things are even tighter.

O L Leigh

 

[Vulcan]

ah, ok.

Well at least it didn't get past the initial idea stage and waste too much time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which side of a 66 does the corridor run down? the side with 2 grilles or the side with 1 grille?

 

[Buttons]

Hello Vulcan,
I drive class 166/65 turbos & hsts. The 166/65 cabs are rather small and the soundproofing has much to be desired. Noise from the passenger compartment can become very annoying,ie playing of music plus the added mobile phone conversation that often takes place. The drivers seats are very uncomfortable and if you are unluckyenough to have to sit on the r/h seat you will no doubt end up with all sorts of aches & pains. Most controls are within easy reach. They can be draughty and sometimes the cab heating can play up (be very careful not to get distracted when fiddling with it to try and get it to work). They are extremely reliable and are fitted with CSR (Cab Secure Radio)very handy when able to use. Hsts are British Rail out and out. They are well built and are now powered by the much quieter MTU engines. My groan is when the r/h door comes open at high speed,125 mph because the latch is problomatic. Also the bloody windscreen wiper handle is so far away. Been lucky so far with them especially as I hear of other drivers having all sorts of problems. I used to drive 180s but will not go into problems I had with those,but many of them I believe could have been put right. They had very good brakes and were very quick off the mark.

 

[Vulcan]

Hello Vulcan,
I drive class 166/65 turbos & hsts. The 166/65 cabs are rather small and the soundproofing has much to be desired. Noise from the passenger compartment can become very annoying,ie playing of music plus the added mobile phone conversation that often takes place. The drivers seats are very uncomfortable and if you are unluckyenough to have to sit on the r/h seat you will no doubt end up with all sorts of aches & pains. Most controls are within easy reach. They can be draughty and sometimes the cab heating can play up (be very careful not to get distracted when fiddling with it to try and get it to work). They are extremely reliable and are fitted with CSR (Cab Secure Radio)very handy when able to use. Hsts are British Rail out and out. They are well built and are now powered by the much quieter MTU engines. My groan is when the r/h door comes open at high speed,125 mph because the latch is problomatic. Also the bloody windscreen wiper handle is so far away. Been lucky so far with them especially as I hear of other drivers having all sorts of problems. I used to drive 180s but will not go into problems I had with those,but many of them I believe could have been put right. They had very good brakes and were very quick off the mark.

Thanks very much for that, I certainly wasn't aware of problems with HST doors opening, but I imagine that is highly annoying.

I'm going to specify a soundproofed cab baulkead on my design. I say specify because it won't look any different on my drawings.
Inspired by the 158s, the wiper switch (with an intermittant setting, as suggested earlier in this thread) will be easily spotted and easily to hand next door to the horn valve at the driver's left hand.
The seat is going to be a fancy, ergonomicly designed, pneumaticly sprung affair, like a cross between an executive office chair and a HGV driver's seat.
As this is just a concept at the moment and we're not too concerned about the technical side of things, I'm afriad I can only draw in a heater and say 'it works', but I think I have found a space for an A/C unit in my 66 sized cab, which will be a relief to many I'm sure.

 

[Vulcan]

Ok, so here is a first render to illustrate the concept.

Bear in mind the following:
1. Its not finished
2. Its only to illustrate the concept to my tutors, who know nothing about trains, let alone what the cab of one should look like. If they recommend I take this concept further, then I'll be getting down to the nitty gritty detail about how it would actually work.

 

[Vulcan]

Here are the renders that have gone into the presentation. They have taken forever. Please don't pick holes in them just yet, leave that for if this concept gets picked to go on for development into my final major project.

 

[jopsuk]

Ooh, a HUD. Not a driver, but clever thinking.

 

[Vulcan]

Well, under the recomendations of my tutors, I have chosen this concept to become my final major project, complete with sketch models and CAD animation.

Thanks to all those who have helped me so far with suggestions for this, please keep them coming so I can develop this into the best project of my designing career so far.