Because Pacers can't defend themselves!

[TrainBrain185]

Just out of curiosity, who here has actually travelled by pacer? I get the feeling some people have made judgements based on all the negative words about them in places such as this forum.

So, I have.

141-Weardale (Preserved), 142 (Very often) 143 (Years ago Heaton based) 144 (Occasional) Use to maintain 142/143 in their...... and my troublesome youth!!

 

[4SRKT]

I would have thought that distance wise, a long journey such as Leeds - Morcambe was particularly unsuited to Pacer travel. If it's a quiet time of day when there are fewer passengers than the capacity of a Pacer, why shouldn't one be a suitable stand in for a 333 to Airedale or Wharfedale - especially as these are much shorter distances?

When this happens they tend to be on the diagram for the whole day, and not just at quiet times. Although TBF to Northern they do seem to trap them in the Leeds > Bradford diagrams which are self contained, or at worst on Bradford > Skipton/Ilkley workings, thus keeping them off the Leeds > Skipton/Ilkleys, which have the heaviest loadings.

However, try explaining that this is the best arrangement to the poor sods on the 07:01 Skipton > Bradford last Tuesday, which was full and standing on arrival at Saltaire with a 2-car 158, with at least another 20 people trying to board there!

 

[yorksrob]

Point taken. I just wanted to show up the

"Let the yokels eat Pacer cake"

point of view which seems to have become prevalent. I personally find it very annoying when the 6:32pm stopper from Leeds - Sheffield via Castleford is standing room only when a class 158 Sheffield express is sitting half empty in the next platform.

 

[Crossover]

Just out of curiosity, who here has actually travelled by pacer? I get the feeling some people have made judgements based on all the negative words about them in places such as this forum.

So, I have.

To be honest, the opinions of the 142's is largely from seeing them and the way they "nod" etc and squeal pulling into stations.

However, I have been on a few 144's - the refurbed Northern ones with the new seats are actually not bad, just don't deal with all the points on the approach to Leeds too well!

I have also been on the refurbed FGW 144's through Dawlish etc and they are quite nice as well and the engines sound pretty good on them too - nice free revving (if thats the word) without too much clattering etc.

Still doesn't mean to say normally I would head for a 185 or such if not requiring the intermediate stations as they are generally better all round still...

 

[Oswyntail]

I travel on them daily. Whilst they're better than nothing, they're worse than anything else on the rails. They should replace them before they start scrapping good Mk 3's and EMU's.

The fact is that Mk3s and EMUs are totally unsuitable for the services Pacers generally operate. Pacers do the job they were intended for reasonably well

I quite agree. On rural services such as the Morecambe line they are quite adequate. But when Northern think a 2 car 144 is a suitable stand in for a 4 car, air conditioned 333 theyre not so good! However, this is more to do with Northern then the trains themselves.

I have often thought that the Morecambe run is exactly not what they were intended for. In the original plan a long, rural route would have been a "Super Sprinter" - 155/156. The Sprinters (150) were for outer suburban/mid-length rural lines. Pacers were for inner suburban/short rural lines. Of course, this plan has not been kept to, meaning Pacers are used outside their - and our - comfort zone.
[[RANT] Please can we stop calling 158/159s "Sprinters". They were called "Express" units, and were intended for inter-urban non "Inter-city" routes. Hence the better aircon(!) seating etc. It is as unfair to compare 150s with 158s as it is to compare 142s with 156s[/RANT]]
Yes, I have frequently ridden on all the Pacer types. Ride wise they are all perfectly adequate, and compare favourably with some of the 1st-gen units; comfort, similarly. The only real problem area was the 141 access arrangements.

 

[northwichcat]

Just out of curiosity, who here has actually travelled by pacer? I get the feeling some people have made judgements based on all the negative words about them in places such as this forum.

So, I have.

I've been on Pacers (142s and 144s) doing journeys from Manchester to Liverpool, Huddersfield to Wakefield, Leeds to Headingley and Northwich to Manchester. Leeds to Headingley or Huddersfield to Wakefield on a 144 is OK, but Northwich to Manchester or Manchester to Liverpool on a 142 isn't good.

 

[yorksrob]

The fact is that Mk3s and EMUs are totally unsuitable for the services Pacers generally operate. Pacers do the job they were intended for reasonably well
.

I wasn't suggesting that the Mk 3's or EMU's directly replace the Pacers - merely that the pacers are replaced before the Mk 3's or EMU's.

Totally agree with you with regard to the Morcambe line though.

 

[Vulcan]

Just been on a 142 Hudds - Bradford interchange (where they were busy installing ticket barriers :-x) and once again, my spine is in tact. I think a lot of the issues of ride quality are exadurated.

Where it does lack though is build quality, especially looking at the driver's cab baulkhead, with bits of foam rubber wedged around the edge of it to plug tha gaps and the cabside windows protruding past it into the passenger saloon. That said this is exclusive to 142s, the later 144s and 143s have different bodies and are a lot better.

 

[northwichcat]

Just been on a 142 Hudds - Bradford interchange (where they were busy installing ticket barriers :-x) and once again, my spine is in tact. I think a lot of the issues of ride quality are exadurated.

As stated by posters previously Pacers run OK on some lines but other lines provide a very poor ride.

Have you been on a 142 in multiple performing an emergency stop? I have and that's very dangerous for the passengers on their bus seats with no head restraint.

 

[Vulcan]

Have you been on a 142 in multiple performing an emergency stop? I have and that's very dangerous for the passengers on their bus seats with no head restraint.

This isn't really a drawback of Pacers. Its only the same as it is on a bus doing the same thing, which I have experienced. And a bus can stop faster then a pacer, worsening the effect, yet buses are still built new with seats without head restraints.

 

[northwichcat]

This isn't really a drawback of Pacers. Its only the same as it is on a bus doing the same thing, which I have experienced. And a bus can stop faster then a pacer, worsening the effect, yet buses are still built new with seats without head restraints.

Yes but you aren't ever going to get two articulated buses joined together. The extra weight has a negative effect as well.

 

[Vulcan]

Hardly, no matter how many pacers you couple together, the braking force won't be as much as a modern bus when the driver stamps on the brake pedal.

 

[Ivo]

New anti-Pacer stab.

I've just gone up to Severn Beach and back (out of boredom), and travelled on 143620 from Bristol TM and back. The ride was at best okay, but beyond Avonmouth... !!!

It was awful! There was a turn we nogotiated at about 12mph (I reckon a 158 could do it at 30), and there was a level crossing which felt extremely uncomfortable. I have mentioned this line before, and saying that it was "nice", but... I shan't be doing it again any time soon.

 

[Vulcan]

New anti-Pacer stab.

I've just gone up to Severn Beach and back (out of boredom), and travelled on 143620 from Bristol TM and back. The ride was at best okay, but beyond Avonmouth... !!!

It was awful! There was a turn we nogotiated at about 12mph (I reckon a 158 could do it at 30), and there was a level crossing which felt extremely uncomfortable. I have mentioned this line before, and saying that it was "nice", but... I shan't be doing it again any time soon.

Wish we'd had a 143 when my family and I did that line (also for fun) last year. 143 is the only type of pacer I havn't been on. Got a lousy 150 instead Now theres something you don't see often - anyone complaining about a 150 in preference to a pacer!

 

[Lampshade]

Wish we'd had a 143 when my family and I did that line (also for fun) last year. 143 is the only type of pacer I havn't been on. Got a lousy 150 instead Now theres something you don't see often - anyone complaining about a 150 in preference to a pacer!

The Northern (ex-ATN) 142s are miles better than the (ex-FNW) 150s

 

[Ivo]

The Northern (ex-ATN) 142s are miles better than the (ex-FNW) 150s

Zuh?!

 

[Lampshade]

Zuh?!

The 142s that were operated by Arriva Trains Northern have proper seats in a 2+2 arrangement, they're really comfy, none of this 2+3 bus seats nonsense. However, the 150s that were operated by First North Western often have the heaters on full even in the summer, they rattle around like they're being fuelled with spanners and the 2+3 seats are very narrow, and quite uncomfortable when, let's say a 'larger' person sits next to you.

In fact, the exact opposite could be said for the ex-ATN 150s, I would rather travel on one than an ex-FNW 142.

So yes, a 142 can be preferable to a 150, provided it's been looked after and refurbished properly.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally, I find that whilst the refurbished Northern Pacers are probably the best of the bunch, I still prefer the 150's. Quite apart from anything else, you have a lot more chance of getting a facing seat.

 

[northwichcat]

It was awful! There was a turn we nogotiated at about 12mph (I reckon a 158 could do it at 30).

The Pacer probably could have done it at 30 but the driver was being kind to your ears and not making you hear the horrendous squeaking sound.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 142s that were operated by Arriva Trains Northern have proper seats in a 2+2 arrangement, they're really comfy, none of this 2+3 bus seats nonsense. However, the 150s that were operated by First North Western often have the heaters on full even in the summer, they rattle around like they're being fuelled with spanners and the 2+3 seats are very narrow, and quite uncomfortable when, let's say a 'larger' person sits next to you.

That depends. With the exception of 158s all of the former ATNs diesel units lack leg room. As some of the FNW 150s have seats facing each other if the train isn't too full you don't need to sit opposite anyone and have ample leg room. Also on the FNW 150s the amount of leg room is different on different parts of the train (in the part of the train near the toilet the amount of leg room is more than on any of the old ATN units.)

The amount of noise and heating arrangements can be poor on any 142 or 150s. A lot of the 142s have heating that fails in winter and the Merseytravel ones are at full in the summer and worse than any 150.

 

[Vulcan]

the 150s ought to be better all round then any pacer, on bogies, more seats, corridor connection (150/2 anyway), huge toilet, and my favourite the rather grand 'BREL York- trainmakers to the world' treadplate at each door. However, for some reason a lot of the Northern ones are in a terrible state inside, with torn seat covers, etched windows, graffiti on the walls (some of it in spray paint or those touch up paint pens) So in actual fact the pacers provide a more pleasent passenger environment.

 

[northwichcat]

However, for some reason a lot of the Northern ones are in a terrible state inside, with torn seat covers, etched windows, graffiti on the walls (some of it in spray paint or those touch up paint pens) So in actual fact the pacers provide a more pleasent passenger environment.

I went on an Arriva Trains Wales 150 a few months ago and the interior painting didn't match up and looked very tatty in places, but having 2+2 seating and the same type of seats as on the old FNW 156s with tables is an improvement over any of the Northern 150s (although 2+2 seating reduces capacity, but that is something that Northern Spirit/Arriva did with 142s and they were being complemented in this thread for doing that.)

 

[4SRKT]

Gosh, it's a long time since I went to Severn Beach. Last time I did, it was in a class 121 single car, which I think we can all agree is better than either a 150 or any kind of pacer.

 

[Vulcan]

Gosh, it's a long time since I went to Severn Beach. Last time I did, it was in a class 121 single car, which I think we can all agree is better than either a 150 or any kind of pacer.

Yes, very impressed by the 121 on the Cardiff bay shuttle. Even though both a pacer and 150 could probably accelerate faster and have a toilet.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, very impressed by the 121 on the Cardiff bay shuttle. Even though both a pacer and 150 could probably accelerate faster and have a toilet.

You wouldn't have time to go to the toilet on the Cardiff Bay shuttle!

 

[4SRKT]

Yes, very impressed by the 121 on the Cardiff bay shuttle. Even though both a pacer and 150 could probably accelerate faster and have a toilet.

I was on a 143 from Newcastle to Carlisle not long after they were first introduced when someone jumped out in front of it near Wylam. A horrible situation, and when a policeman got on and told the passengers what had happened a woman got up, went to the toilet and promptly vomited, pebbledashing the entire cubicle, rendering it unusable for the rest of the journey. As the impact had damaged the train's brakes in some way, 'the rest of the journey' was quite a long time. We had to wait for the next, Hexham-bound pacer to come up behind to provide braking, then do all the stops to Hexham (our train was non-stop Newcastle > Hexham), before proceesing to Carlisle. A lot of bladders had reached crisis point by the time we got to the Border City!

 

[Vulcan]

yes, but my point is I don't think there was a toilet on the 121 at all. Therefore on paper 150 and pacers are better. But in real life I would do any journey by 121, as it was such a well presented and comfortable thing to ride on. It would have been better if the blind had been open in the back of the cab so we could see where we were going, but apart from that, brilliant. I'll have one in N gauge, get on with it Dapol!

 

[4SRKT]

Therefore on paper 150 and pacers are better.

On toilet paper?

 

[trickyvegas]

However, the 150s that were operated by First North Western often have the heaters on full even in the summer, .

I had this problem on a Pacer in August, operated by Northern. I mentioned it to the guard when it terminated at Huddersfield, intended as a courtesy in case he wasn't aware rather than a moan. He was kind enough to show me the panel in the cab, which was set to off and said the train pretty much decided for itself whether the heating would be on or not.

 

[37372]

I agree with ex ATN 142s being miles better than the rest.

Despite me hating pacers, I changed my tune slightly yesterday when my train to work which is booked for a 142 or 144 (and is full and standing even then) was formed of a single 153 instead. To say it was packed would be an understatement! Give me a pacer over a 153 at morning rush hour any time!

 

[Vulcan]

On toilet paper?

I've seen something similar to the condition some 150s are in smeared across toilet paper, yes.