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ECML all stop (09/03/19 1430) - passengers egressed from broken down train
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The thing is that, by definition, when passengers feel they have no other option but to self-evacuate that is what they will do. As I see it, this is something that can only be countered by providing lots of information, reassurance, and making it obvious that efforts are being made to get people moving.
The problem being the driver/train staff being engaged in trying to actually get the train moving without being distracted by giving reassurances (which is a recipe for stress, confusion and error).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It is a downside of DOO but this can be mitigated to some extent by way of remote PA. On a guarded train or one with an OBS, they can and should be doing this once any protection etc has been carried out.
I believe the driver was keeping passengers informed on the train, as the other two considering getting off were talking about the 'panosomething' (their words) so must have been told by the driver the delay was down to their train. Clearly everyone else was 'happy' to sit it out, regrettably for a lot longer than they would have. Like over three times the time they may have been there.
It is this sort of over-reaction that gets the railway such a reputation for delays. Can you imaging a motorway, let alone a road, being closed for hours because someone left a broken down car and crossed to the other side? For that matter can you imagine a railway in most of the rest of the world being closed in these circumstances? Clearly the intention of these jumpers, however gung-ho they went about it, was to get on with their journey, not to commit suicide or climb catenaries.
There seem to be a tradition of stopping the railway for no good reason. I was once on a MML train that was stopped at the request of police in the north London suburbs because of a "fire near the line". We were stopped for over an hour, at a station on an embankment in fact, and we learned from people on the platform with local knowledge that the fire was in a factory that was about a quarter mile from the railway. Moreover, we could see road traffic between us and the fire moving freely all the time.
Getting off a train and jumping down on a live running track with a line speed of over 100mph is not really a good idea. Even the other side was a live running rail at the time.
The train was not at a platform where I am sure the driver would have released the doors and let everyone off. Indeed the train would have terminated there rather than Hatfield.
I can't really see how you can make any comparison to a road.
The train was not at a platform where I am sure the driver would have released the doors and let everyone off. Indeed the train would have terminated there rather than Hatfield.
I can't really see how you can make any comparison to a road.
atraindriver
Member
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So once they have bailed out and walking the track, they are then trespassers, so do we extend that rule to those that are reported trackside and trespassing ? If so then the OHL / DV will be off numerous times a day in some places, and as it's an Emergency Switch off, it will be neutral to neutral, which will be many miles.
Looks like ADD report at 1530 and first person(s) to exit train was at 1537 ! this event alone caused 29 Cancelled, 80 delayed 1781 mins delay
Is this not what kicked it all off at Lewisham ?
1. Railways and roads/motorways are different in several crucial ways. On the road you can drive by line of sight and should be able to stop in time if you see people on the roadway in front of you. Additionally you can seek to avoid them by use of the steering wheel. On the railway by the time you can see them it's very likely to be too late to stop in time. And you've no steering wheel.
2. Most road users are familiar with the roads environment and its hazards. This is not the case for most rail users.
3. There are parts of the world where a much more relaxed attitude prevails. In India victims struck and killed are rolled in old carpet and transported in the passenger saloon (I've seen it happen). Happily we place a higher value on human life here.
4. To start judging response by the presumed intent of the trespasser(s) is fine ... until it goes wrong. "I thought they would just walk up the ramp at the end of the platform. I never thought they'd end up splattered across the front of 1A43" ain't going to wash.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
7 minutes is ridiclous. If you'd been on there for 3+ hours with no toilet, no heating/air con and no ventilation, then I'd understand but 7 minutes is taking the mick. I hope they are traced & prosecuted.
It was a lot longer than that. But obviously still no excuse.
Suppose a crook blindfolded me and plugged my ears (lets assume those guys' stupidity was equivalent to that), and gave me a forced choice between crossing a 4-track main line railway or a motorway : I'd choose the railway. The chance of being hit are much lower on the railway - a lower traffic level and a narrower total danger zone.
For myself, with open ears and eyes I'd also prefer being on the railway and have spent plenty of time on the tracks in the course of work - there was no question whatsoever of my being struck. OTOH yesterday I was working for two hours in the relatively quiet country road outside my house cutting my hedge, and was much more worried about my safety.
In that case, would you say the emergency egress should be locked out of use (unless released by some other mechanism in the case of a major derailment)?
Last time this was suggested (IE, making it impossible for passengers to get off under power outage circumstances), it wasn't popular:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/is-it-time-to-lock-people-on-trains.161470/
Perhaps the other users took it literally. Of course in an emergency there needs to be some way of the doors being able to be released (although in a large emergency, I suspect many of the windows would have smashed anyway).
Not particularly challenging your point of view, but you either effectively lock people on trains or you risk them self evacuating. Like I say, it seems to be a growing trend and unless it's in the papers that someone had to pay thousands for doing so, others will think it carries no penalty.
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You can't disable the emergency egress. But it is only for emergencies. While I realise you can't open a door on a plane mid-flight, I think most people realise you don't open the doors on the ground because you're in a hurry to get off and the plane is waiting for a gate.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You can on some older trains. But you shouldn't; there's plenty of precedent for what happens if you lock people in trains and they catch fire. The windows aren't an option - double glazed windows are very hard to break.
People have done it, but yes, they are mostly sensible. It also may not be possible even on the ground if the cabin is pressurised, this will depend on the aircraft and how the pressurisation system works on the ground. This has actually caused deaths in the past.
I think with an airport, though, the level of security is such that people know they WILL get caught. On a train if you get off and hop the fence quickly, odds on you won't.
Aictos
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Never said that the emergency egress ought to be locked out of use, I actually said and I quote "passengers should only egress from a train when instructed to do so by a authorised person and following their instructions."
By this I mean egress from the train but only after instructed by a authorised person that it is safe to do so after all there are many possible obstructions or reasons why it may not be safe to simply egress at that point and would need to be made safe first.
Lessons should have been learnt from previous incidents such as Kentish Town and Peckham Rye, the last being especially serious as the passengers were being evacuated off the train and onto the track side where the 3rd rail was still live.
People who just take actions into their own hands should face a penalty especially if their actions have put themselves or others in direct danger as well as causing unneeded delay to the service.
And I didn't say you said that either
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Are the wires down? If not why haven't they just shoved a loco on the front and dragged it somewhere useful?
Lots of reasons... brakes could have jammed on for example (just an example, don't know if that's what's happened here).
Glenn1969
Established Member
IE10 was cancelled north of Newcastle for the same reason. Hope they get things back to normal soon
Given that the train seems to have been stopped at a station and the driver had working intercom to the carriages, why not announce 'x fault has happened, we hope to get this fixed soon, I am opening the doors if you wish to wait on the platform until we can proceed or if you wish to make other arrangements to reach your destination'?
Glenn1969
Established Member
RTT shows IE10 as the train that had pantograph issues and was restarted at Newcastle , presumably with another unit
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1E02 0548 Edinburgh to London Kings Cross is finally heading to Newcastle 340L
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y70214/2019/03/14/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y70214/2019/03/14/advanced
Glenn1969
Established Member
I presume that unit will be terminated at Newcastle. The 1100 to Edinburgh has been cancelled.
Without doubt it will be off to bounds green for repair they'll be hoping the roof is fine otherwise 91111 could be out of service for longer than they could do with at the moment given how many have broken down in the past week or so
bramling
Veteran Member
Would love to see some of the self-righteous London types self-egress at or around Chathill!
The latest rule book change is that if a service suffers a ADD failure. Signaler has to be contacted to establish if OLE power has been isolated before leaving the train to inspect. The rule is there for a reason since one of the main reasons for ADD failure is a power line being down. Now excuse my blunt talking here, but it is a very simple procedure for either the driver or the guard to go onto the PA and explain this to the passengers. If then they decide to jump ship, it is on their heads be it.
However, it has not been tested in court, but if the crew fail to warn the passengers that there is a possibility that 25,000 volt steel cable might be whipping around outside, Could this possibly be used in a court against them?
Communication is the key.
However, it has not been tested in court, but if the crew fail to warn the passengers that there is a possibility that 25,000 volt steel cable might be whipping around outside, Could this possibly be used in a court against them?
Communication is the key.
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