Staff didn't like ticket- so they called police.

[Starmill]

Also, a sure fire way to get staff members backs up is filming or trying to photograph them.
Do this and expect harsh responses in return. Even if they are wrong. If you're desperate for some sort of proof they are in the wrong, ask for written confirmation.

Remember, even in your work place, if someone started filming you, even if you were in the wrong, you wouldn't like it either.

Thank you for your ridiculous off topic rant. This point in particular I don't see the relevance of in this thread.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss that further please make a new thread, as that's a whole new subject in its own right. If no-one has done so when I get home I will do so then.

 

[Howardh]

Can a ticket inspector or similar hold you against your will - for example, calling the transport police, and can the TP hold you against your will? I would have a tendency to give them my name and address, say I'm right, and if they're not satisfied ask them to speak to me next in court where they would have to prove I'm wrong. And walk out.

If they didn't then let me through a door, gate or barrier, would THEY be committing an offence?

 

[yorkie]

Can a ticket inspector or similar hold you against your will - for example, calling the transport police, and can the TP hold you against your will? I would have a tendency to give them my name and address, say I'm right, and if they're not satisfied ask them to speak to me next in court where they would have to prove I'm wrong. And walk out.

It is unlikely that station staff will be allowed to effectively perform a citizen's arrest; even if they have had the appropriate training to do so, they should only be doing this when there are reasonable grounds to do so.

A customer showing a ticket they believe is valid and is only in dispute because the staff refuse to accept the route being a permitted route would be contentious to say the least.

Another reason I would recommend having an itinerary is that it would be contrary to consumer and contract law for the company to charge you an additional fare if you showed such an itinerary. The worst they can do is withdraw the ticketand issue a free of charge replacement ticket valid to the destination and complete a ticket irregularity report (TIR) for investigation.

If they are claiming a retailer incorrectly issued a ticket, that could be seen as slander against a retailer and having the backing of a good retailer may be useful to a customer in this situation.

Ask questions rather than make too many bold statements they won't like. Don't swear or use derogatory language such as "jobsworth" ( technically they are not doing that if they are acting incorrectly anyway!). Make notes as soon as the encounter is over so you don't forget key points. Keep calm. And if they threaten to call the police, don't then act differently, such as in a way that makes you seem like you think the police would deem you to be wrong.

If you have a witness that can be useful too.

Also an independent person e.g. a passenger you are travelling with who is on a different ticket , could be of use. I will be much more bold with what I say when I'm not the victim, as it's harder for them to do something about someone who has a ticket they are happy with; I did this on a Fife Circle train and got an aggressive Guard to stop charging other forum members who had valid tickets ( he was happy with my Glenrothes ticket).

Some rail staff can become aggresive and abusive but you must ensure you remain in the right. Do not react badly. BTP may believe staff over passengers and you can end up in more trouble if you react. If they swear at you, don't swear back. If you do, they will win and you will lose.

 

[RJ]

Unpopular but don't be too hard on the gateline people.

Remember, the fare system is stupid and broken.
There's so many silly this and that, it's a struggle for ticket office staff with the systems to keep up to date, let alone gateline staff, who are not really retail trained.

I've been in arguments before with people when I wanted to go a particular way and they said it isn't valid, when I knew it was.

Remember, when you are proved right, the staff member will be embarassed and is highly likely not to say sorry. If you continue to engage with them down the path of "ha - so I was right", that will not end well for either party.

FYI: No gateline or ticket office staff member can stop you leaving the station.

Ask the staff member to photocopy the ticket. Give them the copy and tell them they can investigate at another time and go for your bus. They probably will just to satisfy them being right. But upon reflection at another time (and you not being there!), they may well realise you were right. In the heat of the moment, it's likely something will be missed.

Also, a sure fire way to get staff members backs up is filming or trying to photograph them.
Do this and expect harsh responses in return. Even if they are wrong. If you're desperate for some sort of proof they are in the wrong, ask for written confirmation.

Remember, even in your work place, if someone started filming you, even if you were in the wrong, you wouldn't like it either.

Nobody expects anybody to know everything. Nobody said anything about taunting or belittling staff either.

Some staff are bullies and most of the ways you have tried to make them out to be victimised are not applicable. These people won't be detaining or calling BTP on anyone with a stronger personality than them. The best way for a customer to deal with these people is to take the power they're abusing away from them - and that can be done tactfully and legally.

If you support staff abusing the powers they are given then that's on you. But don't make them out to be the victim. Detaining and using BTP to annoy a customer who has done no wrong is an abuse of power.

The correct way for staff to deal with these matters is to follow the procedures that have been put in place. TIR or give the benefit of the doubt and let it go. Discretion is a power universally given to revenue staff and it is appropriate to use it where there are validity disputes given the complexity of the system. That way the customer is not inconvenienced and an investigation into the validity of the ticket can be carried out internally.

 

[island]

Can a ticket inspector or similar hold you against your will - for example, calling the transport police, and can the TP hold you against your will? I would have a tendency to give them my name and address, say I'm right, and if they're not satisfied ask them to speak to me next in court where they would have to prove I'm wrong. And walk out.

If they didn't then let me through a door, gate or barrier, would THEY be committing an offence?

Railway staff have a right to detain a passenger who fails to show (or, as the case may be, hand over) a ticket, pay his or her fare, or provide his or her name and address. Once one of those three things has been done, the right no longer applies.

A police constable may detain anyone whom he or she reasonably believes to have committed an offence, subject to section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. The belief may turn out to be wrong whilst still being reasonable.

 

[Coolzac]

The fact that they claimed the gate is always right is outrageous- I have lost count of the amount of times I have had a perfectly valid ticket rejected at the gateline for various spurious reasons. My favourite is I once had a Leeds to London single and it at Leeds it was rejected- why? It said 'Not valid at this location'.

But the gates are always right......

 

[whhistle]

Thank you for your ridiculous off topic rant. This point in particular I don't see the relevance of in this thread.

It was in reposnse to something someone posted the previous post to mine.
But you could easily say the same about your post - a private message surely would have been better?

The problem is though, we all assume the customer is always right.
A lot of the posts in this thread are looking at the TOC like they're the devil. I watch people buy tickets daily, and also watch how silly some of them are when trying to do so.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It was in reposnse to something someone posted the previous post to mine.
But you could easily say the same about your post - a private message surely would have been better?

The problem is though, we all assume the customer is always right.
A lot of the posts in this thread are looking at the TOC like they're the devil. I watch people buy tickets daily, and also watch how silly some of them are when trying to do so.

I'm sorry, but there is no excuse in existence that can possibly justify calling the police (or threatening to do so) over what is still a civil matter (at the point the threat was made). It is a classic example of why the railway cannot be trusted with the archaic and disproportionate powers it has.

 

[Howardh]

It was in reposnse to something someone posted the previous post to mine.
But you could easily say the same about your post - a private message surely would have been better?

The problem is though, we all assume the customer is always right.
A lot of the posts in this thread are looking at the TOC like they're the devil. I watch people buy tickets daily, and also watch how silly some of them are when trying to do so.

Be fair, there are so many different variations of so many choices it can be very difficult to pick the right one, especially if running a bit late and flustered and not a regular train user. It doesn't help when stations only have ATM's instead of real staff to assist.

 

[Stigy]

It is unlikely that station staff will be allowed to effectively perform a citizen's arrest; even if they have had the appropriate training to do so, they should only be doing this when there are reasonable grounds to do so.

A citizen's (any person) arrest wouldn't be lawful anyway as the offence wasn't be indictable.

However, rail staff have a power under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to detain until a suspect can be brought before some justice (the Police in the case of rail staff). As you probably know though, this is very specific to refusing to buy a ticket, then refusing to supply one's name and address when requested (neither of which occurred in the OP's case). This power is very rarely exercised, and TOCs will almost certainly NOT want their staff 'arresting' members of the public for fear of backlash/ staff assaults etc. With this in mind, staff tend not to even be told about this power.

 

[RJ]

It was in reposnse to something someone posted the previous post to mine.
But you could easily say the same about your post - a private message surely would have been better?

The problem is though, we all assume the customer is always right.
A lot of the posts in this thread are looking at the TOC like they're the devil. I watch people buy tickets daily, and also watch how silly some of them are when trying to do so.

I think some people who work for the railways forget that not everyone spends 40 hours a week on them and not everyone is initiated with how the system works. TVMs can be downright user unfriendly and the ticketing system is complicated enough to require people to need a helping hand a lot of the time.

Just because a customer isn't familiar with how something works, it doesn't mean they are being silly.

I'm a railway employee working in a customer service role, but I hope the day never comes when I think the somewhat strange attitude and contempt that is shown towards paying customers is normal or justifiable!

Sharp and smart customers are regulars where I work and I applaud them for accidentally or otherwise finding loopholes and value tickets. Calling the BTP on them is what is silly.

 

[Segedunum]

A citizen's (any person) arrest wouldn't be lawful anyway as the offence wasn't be indictable.

However, rail staff have a power under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 to detain until a suspect can be brought before some justice (the Police in the case of rail staff). As you probably know though, this is very specific to refusing to buy a ticket, then refusing to supply one's name and address when requested (neither of which occurred in the OP's case). This power is very rarely exercised, and TOCs will almost certainly NOT want their staff 'arresting' members of the public for fear of backlash/ staff assaults etc. With this in mind, staff tend not to even be told about this power.

For clarity, the police were called once I'd been told repeatedly I was wrong and my ticket wasn't valid. Then I clarified with the staff that I didn't wish to pay anything else which was met straight away with 'Right, let's get BTP down then.' Not 'here's why you need to' or 'okay can I have your details'.

I was treated as if I had no ticket at all and when I gave in and paid I was even given a lecture on how lucky I was to get a railcard discount as I'd boarded at a staffed station without a ticket!

 

[Stigy]

For clarity, the police were called once I'd been told repeatedly I was wrong and my ticket wasn't valid. Then I clarified with the staff that I didn't wish to pay anything else which was met straight away with 'Right, let's get BTP down then.' Not 'here's why you need to' or 'okay can I have your details'.

I was treated as if I had no ticket at all and when I gave in and paid I was even given a lecture on how lucky I was to get a railcard discount as I'd boarded at a staffed station without a ticket!

I know, I wasn’t for one second saying you were in the wrong or trying to justify the action of the staff calling the police, just to be clear

 

[Stigy]

I think some people who work for the railways forget that not everyone spends 40 hours a week on them and not everyone is initiated with how the system works. TVMs can be downright user unfriendly and the ticketing system is complicated enough to require people to need a helping hand a lot of the time.

Just because a customer isn't familiar with how something works, it doesn't mean they are being silly.

I'm a railway employee working in a customer service role, but I hope the day never comes when I think the somewhat strange attitude and contempt that is shown towards paying customers is normal or justifiable!

Sharp and smart customers are regulars where I work and I applaud them for accidentally or otherwise finding loopholes and value tickets. Calling the BTP on them is what is silly.

I agree. I too am in a customer facing role within the railway (part customer service part enforcement....). I see almost daily, staff rudeness and contempt for customers who don’t understand the workings of the railway. Unless they’re clearly obnoxious, or otherwise need to wind their neck in a little, staff just need to accept that customers make mistakes or just don’t get the railway and it’s complexity. Even when reporting somebody for an offence, as far as I’m concerned members of the public should be treated with respect, not least because A) I want their cooperation and B) because I’d rather not be rolling around on the floor because of the way I’ve spoken to someone. Unfortunately this is why some staff are assaulted quite frequently too.

 

[sheff1]

I see almost daily, staff rudeness and contempt for customers who don’t understand the workings of the railway.

A number of staff are rude and contemptuous to customers who do understand ticketing - it is the rude contemptuous staff who do not understand. These people are often strangely proud that they still do not understand things despite having worked on the railway for xx years. In almost any other industry they would have been weeded out long ago.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In almost any other industry they would have been weeded out long ago.

Considering the amount of people who want jobs in the industry, it surprises me how hard it is to lose your job on the railways. I've been excluded from school for less than that, especially the Paddington station "tell the BTP they have a weapon" nonesense.

 

[RJ]

I agree. I too am in a customer facing role within the railway (part customer service part enforcement....). I see almost daily, staff rudeness and contempt for customers who don’t understand the workings of the railway. Unless they’re clearly obnoxious, or otherwise need to wind their neck in a little, staff just need to accept that customers make mistakes or just don’t get the railway and it’s complexity. Even when reporting somebody for an offence, as far as I’m concerned members of the public should be treated with respect, not least because A) I want their cooperation and B) because I’d rather not be rolling around on the floor because of the way I’ve spoken to someone. Unfortunately this is why some staff are assaulted quite frequently too.

Thank you for posting that, consicely put and I totally agree.

 

[farleigh]

Excellent post Stigy