Sheffield...Any plans?

[Glenn1969]

I believe at least Grindleford, Hathersage, Hope and Bamford (and stations nearer Manchester) are on the list for platform lengthening this year ?

 

[_toommm_]

I believe at least Grindleford, Hathersage, Hope and Bamford (and stations nearer Manchester) are on the list for platform lengthening this year ?

Some of these stations don't even need extending as such, just putting old platform space back into use - Grindleford is a great example of this...

 

[Killingworth]

I believe at least Grindleford, Hathersage, Hope and Bamford (and stations nearer Manchester) are on the list for platform lengthening this year ?

Source would be helpful as it's not been heard in the valley. Maximum length of trains currently stopping in the Hope Valley is 4. East Midlands provide the first westbound and last eastbound services. As far as I know only Hathersage westbound is too short and I've not heard of plans to extend it.

Dore & Totley does see 6 coach trains but will not be lengthened to take them before 2021/2 as part of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme - a subject that causes TPE services to dwell for 2 minutes instead of the timetabled 1 as passengers have to access carriages 5 and 6 from carriage 4.

 

[Tomnick]

Source would be helpful as it's not been heard in the valley. Maximum length of trains currently stopping in the Hope Valley is 4. East Midlands provide the first westbound and last eastbound services. As far as I know only Hathersage westbound is too short and I've not heard of plans to extend it.

Dore & Totley does see 6 coach trains but will not be lengthened to take them before 2021/2 as part of the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme - a subject that causes TPE services to dwell for 2 minutes instead of the timetabled 1 as passengers have to access carriages 5 and 6 from carriage 4.

The operational part of the platform at Grindleford on the Down is too short for 4x23m vehicles, Bamford's very tight if the signal's at danger, Hope's tight on the Up, and there's no chance at Hathersage in either direction.

 

[Tomnick]

From my experience from travelling to/from Sheffield, most of the time, I tend to be most delayed on the Leeds - Nottingham via Barnsley NT service. Often waiting for a path at Meadowhall to cross over and then again waiting outside of Sheffield for a platform.

Booked in at XX:05 but usually delayed by a few minutes. This then delays the XX:11 TPE service to Manchester Airport as both the Nottingham and Manchester Airport services usually leave from platform 6A.

Is there any other platform available at that time? There seems to be an enormous reluctance to use anything other than the booked platform unless absolutely necessary, even if the opposite platform on the same island (so an easy alteration for passengers) is available.

 

[londonmidland]

Is there any other platform available at that time? There seems to be an enormous reluctance to use anything other than the booked platform unless absolutely necessary, even if the opposite platform on the same island (so an easy alteration for passengers) is available.

Sometimes platform 8 has an EMT London St. Pancras service in it, or due in shortly, but for some reason they tend to keep platform 8 free. The NT Nottingham services sometimes do use 8 but they tend to go in 6, even if running late.

 

[tbtc]

Going to suggest something a little bit left-field:

Rebuild Rotherham Masborough as an option if Sheffield becomes too crowded?

re-opening Masbrough would be a big help for reliability fo services into Sheffield.

For example, at the moment there are three services per hour from Sheffield that stop at Swinton. Slow services that take over twenty minutes to cover the ten miles of track.

To get from Sheffield to Swinton they need to cross the southbound (Leeds/Doncaster-Sheffield) line on the flat near Blackburn Meadows, take the single track chord past the New York Stadium that finishes just short of Rotherham Central (which obviously has three services per hour running over it in the opposite direction), then cross the southbound Leeds/Doncaster-Sheffield line again.

That's a lot of conflicts/bottlenecks to negotiate three times per hour - it only takes one little bit of disruption and then you find these services slowing a Cross Country or TransPennine service, with major repercussions further down the line.

A Crossover south of Coronation Bridge would allow the stoppers to be overtaken at Masbrough with no conflicting movements between north/southbound services.

Leave Rotherham Central to the "TramTrain".

Don't expect these to be achieved. They've been planning redoubling through Dore since before 2005. That might happen to latest timetable but 2023 is possibly more realistic?

I can't think of a shorter bottleneck that would be easier to solve than the lack of a second line at Dore - the trackbed is there, it's not like we'd need grade separation/ road bridges/ knocking down houses etc, it's a relatively short section track that would improve reliability so significantly - so frustrating!

Just to stir things up, it certainly winds us up in Sheffield when 'the' Transpennine link features in TfN and Network Rail's presentations and spending priorities

Aye - Sheffield doesn't seem to feature too high as a priority - it's all about the Leeds - Manchester axis. That has double track throughout, one TOC, electrification on the way etc. Sheffield - Manchester is split between three TOCs, has two sections of single track, no electrification planned any time soon... "NPR" won't come anywhere near here.

No chance of re-using Woodhead then?

The first problem with Woodhead is that you'd have to find a way of getting past the Northern services that (even with the apparently fast-accelerating 323s) take half an hour to do a dozen miles from Piccadilly to Dinting. Even if you go like the clappers from Dinting to Sheffield Victoria*, it's not going to be a fast journey, given the time it'd take to get from Manchester to Dinting

(* - Sheffield Victoria would be a terrible place for a station and I have other doubts about the viability of the Woodhead route but the obstacle of dealing with the tediously slow Northern services west of Dinting seems enough of a problem to leave on the table for now without worrying about the practicalities of getting under the Pennines etc etc)

 

[Modron]

@tbtc - great post, especially the point about the crossover.

 

[Glenn1969]

I believe at least Grindleford, Hathersage, Hope and Bamford (and stations nearer Manchester) are on the list for platform lengthening this year ?

Part of the North of England Platform Lengthening Scheme due for completion in November

 

[Killingworth]

The operational part of the platform at Grindleford on the Down is too short for 4x23m vehicles, Bamford's very tight if the signal's at danger, Hope's tight on the Up, and there's no chance at Hathersage in either direction.

Yet EMT manage to stop 2 x 158s without undue difficulty, as have Northern with 2 x 142 in evenings (they're not comparable but fit all but Hathersage Westbound), now often a 142 + 150 and sometimes 2 x 150s. For Northern the rear unit will be locked out until Bamford going west. The monthly Folk Train to Edale will use all 4 coaches because those in the rear 2 are told they can't get out at Hathersage!

Grindleford is indeed very long and wouldn't need much fettling up to take longer trains - although on the railway that can mean masses of forms and many consultations with all sorts of interested parties, risk assessments, and meetings. In older times special trains of 6 or more coaches brought walkers into the Peak, and to watch the Longshaw Sheepdog Trials.

The Hope Valley Rail Users Group has been asking for a few of the fast services to stop once in the valley. Currently there's not even a rumour that this will happen any time soon, although Hope would seem to be the most likely candidate, offering commuting opportunities in both directions ans a central tourist hub. After the Capacity Scheme work is the best hope of valley rail users so building longer platforms may be premature for that.

However, believing there's often no smoke without fire, there may be a germ of truth in here. Taking heed of Tomnick, who knows the route better than most, I suspect surveys may be being made to bring back into use parts of the disused old platforms. Do I have any evidence? By coincidence I just might.

Having made a big error on the 1st February and caught the 1.14 for Dore I was reminded it skips that stop when it failed to slow down!! I thus had time to kill at Grindleford Station cafe before waiting for the next train back - which was late. There were two men on the westbound platform with what seemed to be a plan in their hands and they were looking closely at the disused western end of the platform. Before I could shout across to enquire what was planned my train arrived. No stopping train was due for more than half an hour. Very interesting..........................? Maybe just rail enthusiasts - but what I could faintly hear sounded more professional than social conversation.

Ah Hah, here's the proof; North of England Platform Extension Programme

 

[class 9]

XC trains have a lot of padding in the timetable, which could explain some of your 'delays,' especially approaching Doncaster.

Sheffield station does need sorting out though. Often slow heading in on the Northern stoppers. Ideally there should be a way to route freight around the station too, as that seems to cause a few issues too.

You are also dreaming if you think these problems don't happen at Leeds. The Sheffield-Leeds Northern services all get stuck outside Leeds waiting for a path in or a platform.

The delays in & out of Sheffield from the south aren't usually huge 5 or 6 minutes usually, into Leeds yes occasionally waiting platforms but usually the north bound XC gets a good run into Leeds.
If you look on RTT over a week for various northbound services, most of the time on time at Chesterfield then the delays start at Dore.

 

[Killingworth]

The delays in & out of Sheffield from the south aren't usually huge 5 or 6 minutes usually, into Leeds yes occasionally waiting platforms but usually the north bound XC gets a good run into Leeds.
If you look on RTT over a week for various northbound services, most of the time on time at Chesterfield then the delays start at Dore.

Priority seems to be given to clearing the single line bottleneck through Dore & Totley station, and also the short chord through Dore Tunnel between Dore West and Dore South Junctions. Hold ups can often start from Dronfield going north. When the Capacity Scheme finally gets completed freights waiting to take the curve from Hope Valley to go south won't need to be held on the through track and conflicting flows through the station won't cause as many hold ups either.

It may only be a few minutes, but they add up across the country as one late train delays others. A train through Dore could be going as far as Penzance, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Norwich, Liverpool, St Pancras, Southampton, Cleethorpes, Manchester Airport and all places in between. The knock-on delays can reverberate across the nation.

I find the TPE services from Doncaster particularly annoying. They're often on time approaching Meadowhall, then get held and arrive at Sheffield 5 minutes late. That breaks a very tight connection into the Hope Valley train - which sets off on time, only to be held in the Heeley loop to allow the TPE I've just left power through, but I've had to catch the bus to Dore & Totley or wait an hour.

 

[talltim]

Having made a big error on the 1st February and caught the 1.14 for Dore I was reminded it skips that stop when it failed to slow down!! I thus had time to kill at Grindleford Station cafe before waiting for the next train back - which was late.

That's a far more pleasant mistake to make than catching the EMT Liverpool-Norwich service in the wrong direction and having to kill time in Stockport...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is a station not built to serve the city though rather than the conveniences of the railway? Having to get a 30 minute bus, then change onto a tram, all at some expense, just to get to the station would not prove popular and would severely limit HS2s share of the market!


Those through lines are used primarily for stabling stock overnight and on Sundays. However, I don’t generally find Sheffield runs out of platform space, the delays at the station almost always attribute to congestion at both throats where it narrows to two tracks more quickly than almost any other major station. Also, both Dore and Meadowhall junctions slow things down, almost every time I catch a train at Dore I’ll see one grind to a halt at the MML signal there...often an XC train too.

I know those through lines are used for stabling, but it's still an inefficient use of space which is at a premium. If you were building the station from scratch today on the same footprint you wouldn't design it that way. Instead you'd use that space for an extra island giving two more full-length platforms.

 

[DanTrain]

I know those through lines are used for stabling, but it's still an inefficient use of space which is at a premium. If you were building the station from scratch today on the same footprint you wouldn't design it that way. Instead you'd use that space for an extra island giving two more full-length platforms.

Agreed. I’d have thought an easy fix would be to stick a bay (or two if room) in the north end of the platform 6/8 island so platforms 1, 2, 5, 6 and 8 can be left to through trains and London trains. Don’t know why this hasn’t been done already given the lack of space in 3/4.

 

[Wtloild]

The frustrating thing about Sheffield is that is also so badly served by road, particularly from the west.

Would be an interesting exercise to relocate Parliament in Sheffield whilst Palace of Westminster is refurbished - see how quickly change would happen then.