Idea to improve Waterloo to Exeter

[Kite159]

Having suffered the awful traffic in Salisbury I wonder whether they should build a new Wilton Salisbury Parkway station with a big old car park and terminate there rather than in town.

Wilton Parkway has been talked about for a few years but it's gone quiet recently

 

[TheWalrus]

I had an idea yesterday while on an Exeter bound 159 service, it is probably unrealistic and not worth the cost, but what if Tisbury station was moved up to the passing loop? That way trains would not have to wait for the other to pass; they would both call at the station at the same time and be loading passengers while they’re waiting, which should save a couple of minutes.

 

[Kite159]

I had an idea yesterday while on an Exeter bound 159 service, it is probably unrealistic and not worth the cost, but what if Tisbury station was moved up to the passing loop? That way trains would not have to wait for the other to pass; they would both call at the station at the same time and be loading passengers while they’re waiting, which should save a couple of minutes.

And rebuilt so it can hold 6 coaches?

 

[TheWalrus]

And rebuilt so it can hold 6 coaches?

Didn’t think of that but it would be an idea if 6 coach formations were to become a regular occurrence.

 

[MarkyT]

It'd be a shame to move such a well sited station further out of the village. I'd go for an Axminster-style dynamic loop at Tisbury about three miles long with high speed point connections at either end. It would be difficult to reinstate the old down platform apparently due to land ownership reasons, but the down track formation alone looks clear and the existing entrance and up platform could be retained together with a new down platform constructed 'staggered' off towards the east or west instead perhaps, if a reasonable deal can't be done with the down side owners. That would avoid the cost of a complete new station, road connection etc. A dynamic loop provides a little more margin to avoid passing delay between directions.

 

[Meerkat]

Surely the down platform would soon be available if a better station enabled the rezoning of that site for housing......

 

[MarkyT]

Surely the down platform would soon be available if a better station enabled the rezoning of that site for housing......

Quite likely. An outline application was refused in 2002 for a residential/commercial development:
https://unidoc.wiltshire.gov.uk/UniDoc/Document/File/Uy8yMDAyLzEzNjcsNzgxMTE=
One of the grounds for refusal was that it made no provision for safeguarding for railway and station improvements which I assume means leaving space for a second track and platform:
https://unidoc.wiltshire.gov.uk/UniDoc/Document/File/Uy8yMDAyLzEzNjcsNzgwNTU=

A revised submission, which does appear to protect space for track and platform, was also refused in 2003:
https://unidoc.wiltshire.gov.uk/UniDoc/Document/File/Uy8yMDAzLzI1NDcsMzYxMTcz
Here is the Officer Report recommending refusal with much detail about the rail aspects:
https://unidoc.wiltshire.gov.uk/UniDoc/Document/File/Uy8yMDAzLzI1NDcsMzczMDA0

So it seems the local authority is supportive of station development but only as part of a suitable development for the larger site, something that has not been proposed so far.

 

[randyrippley]

Personally I think some of the services east of Yeovil should be rerouted via Westbury to Paddington
So a pattern something like hourly Waterloo-Exeter, hourly Paddington-Exeter via Yeovil, twice hourly Waterloo-Yeovil.
An hourly Bristol-Exeter via Yeovil would be sensible, along with an hourly Weymouth-Paddington
I guess the current Bristol-Weymouth service would have to go, but there would be interchange available at Westbury

You might have to take back platforms 3 & 4 at Yeovil Junction though to cope with the terminating services

 

[VT 390]

So a pattern something like hourly Waterloo-Exeter, hourly Paddington-Exeter via Yeovil, twice hourly Waterloo-Yeovil.
An hourly Bristol-Exeter via Yeovil would be sensible, along with an hourly Weymouth-Paddington
I guess the current Bristol-Weymouth service would have to go, but there would be interchange available at Westbury

I like the idea of a Paddington to Weymouth service if paths could be found, especially if the line from Castle Cary to Dorchester got improved line speeds as it could offer a competitive journey time to London from Weymouth as well as freeing up some seats for Waterloo passengers at Bournemouth, Southampton and other SWML stations. The way this service could operate would be to make the new two hourly GWR Exeter to Paddington service hourly 10 coach set which could divide at Westbury or Castle Cary with 5 coaches going to Exeter and 5 to Weymouth.

I do not think a Exeter to Paddington via Yeovil service would be much use though as it will still be slower than via Taunton. I would have a Half Hourly service Exeter to Salisbury service with one continuing to London and the other joining with the Salisbury to Romsey via Southampton service. This would mean there would be direct trains from Exeter to Southampton as well as Waterloo.

 

[randyrippley]

the Exeter-Paddington via Yeovil route idea was more to give a faster service to London for passengers from Dorset / South Somerset, not to provide an alternative end-to-end service

 

[30907]

the Exeter-Paddington via Yeovil route idea was more to give a faster service to London for passengers from Dorset / South Somerset, not to provide an alternative end-to-end service

Checking the forthcoming diversion times, YVJ-PAD with 2 stops and no pathing is 105min for an HST. Via Salisbury with 2 stops and no pathing ought to take 110min with existing stock. So not much different.

 

[randyrippley]

Checking the forthcoming diversion times, YVJ-PAD with 2 stops and no pathing is 105min for an HST. Via Salisbury with 2 stops and no pathing ought to take 110min with existing stock. So not much different.

Except via Salisbury you'd actually have nine or ten stops east of Yeovil, while via Westbury just three, assuming you ran non-stop east of Westbury.

 

[VT 390]

Except via Salisbury you'd actually have nine or ten stops east of Yeovil, while via Westbury just three, assuming you ran non-stop east of Westbury.

Would there be enough passengers travelling to London from stations between Exeter and Yeovil if it ran non stop Westbury to London? Would it not be better to at least stop at Reading to provide better interchange with other routes.

 

[randyrippley]

Would there be enough passengers travelling to London from stations between Exeter and Yeovil if it ran non stop Westbury to London? Would it not be better to at least stop at Reading to provide better interchange with other routes.

Yes you're right it would be. I was just using that last post to point out that it should be a quicker route. Even with a stop at Reading that should still be true.
I was also assuming that the trains would take over the traffic from Castle Cary and Frome, allowing trains routed via Taunton to skip those

 

[30907]

Except via Salisbury you'd actually have nine or ten stops east of Yeovil, while via Westbury just three, assuming you ran non-stop east of Westbury.

Obviously if you omit stops the train will be faster, but that equally applies to the LSWR route - SWR ran limited-stop relief trains at Christmas, though I don't have the times now, so it can be done! (I appreciate you wouldn't be able to manage your 3tph without extending the Tisbury loop).

FYI the GWR HST calls are Castle Cary and Reading (I would substitute Pen Mill for CLC), and I was assuming Salisbury and Clapham Jn for a Waterloo train.

 

[randyrippley]

Realistically though, skip stopping between Yeovil and Salisbury won't make much difference because of all the waits for oncoming trains to clear the single tracks, and the length of the sections. If anything you're better with all trains having the same profile, otherwise you'd have fast trains impeded by the slow one in front.......east of Salisbury is obviously easier, the only decision is whether to stop at Andover/Basingstoke/Woking or not

 

[The Ham]

I like the idea of a Paddington to Weymouth service if paths could be found, especially if the line from Castle Cary to Dorchester got improved line speeds as it could offer a competitive journey time to London from Weymouth as well as freeing up some seats for Waterloo passengers at Bournemouth, Southampton and other SWML stations. The way this service could operate would be to make the new two hourly GWR Exeter to Paddington service hourly 10 coach set which could divide at Westbury or Castle Cary with 5 coaches going to Exeter and 5 to Weymouth.

I do not think a Exeter to Paddington via Yeovil service would be much use though as it will still be slower than via Taunton. I would have a Half Hourly service Exeter to Salisbury service with one continuing to London and the other joining with the Salisbury to Romsey via Southampton service. This would mean there would be direct trains from Exeter to Southampton as well as Waterloo.

Weymouth to Waterloo via Yeovil (even with a double reversal) would be broadly the same time as the slower via Southampton route.

Mostly it would require a few extra units so that those units which split at Salisbury from the Exeter services could be used to run the service.

The big problem with aiming for Paddington is that there's a much bigger established market for running the trains to Exeter, so any spare capacity (such as a second 80x on a diagram) would likely be used for that.

In addition a 3 or 4 coach 159 or pair of 158's would likely be much cheaper for the likely relatively light loadings which you would expect for such a duplication of services (at least to begin with).

 

[30907]

Realistically though, skip stopping between Yeovil and Salisbury won't make much difference because of all the waits for oncoming trains to clear the single tracks, and the length of the sections. If anything you're better with all trains having the same profile, otherwise you'd have fast trains impeded by the slow one in front.......east of Salisbury is obviously easier, the only decision is whether to stop at Andover/Basingstoke/Woking or not

It should be possible to path an hourly service non-stop and use the crossing loops for the stoppers.

 

[randyrippley]

It should be possible to path an hourly service non-stop and use the crossing loops for the stoppers.

Only the up lines on the loops are reversible, the down lines aren't so you could only overtake in the down direction.
Only exception is Yeovil, where both in-use platforms are reversible
Besides which you'd be hard pressed to use a loop for both overtaking and crossing

 

[30907]

Only the up lines on the loops are reversible, the down lines aren't so you could only overtake in the down direction.
Only exception is Yeovil, where both in-use platforms are reversible
Besides which you'd be hard pressed to use a loop for both overtaking and crossing

I wasn't talking about overtaking, that seems pointless with the long block sections.
Forgotten that the down loops weren't bidi though, that would slow a nonstop down.

 

[TheWalrus]

Having sat and worked out how a half-hourly Waterloo-Exeter would work, you would have to change paths into Waterloo or need more infrastructure improvements. Therefore if an additional hourly stopper ran between Honiton and Exeter, then Waterloo-Exeter services could run non-stop Honiton-Exeter Central. This would still speed up the service slightly.

You could extend either the London Waterloo-Salisbury or Salisbury 6 onto Exeter via Westbury as you have double track that way. You may get more London passengers from Castle Cary, Frome and Westbury or link Exeter with Southampton - another interurban link.

 

[ijmad]

I wouldn't mind seeing these extended to Plymouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

You could extend either the London Waterloo-Salisbury or Salisbury 6 onto Exeter via Westbury as you have double track that way...

The likelihood is that the Salisbury/Romsey 6 will be connected across Salisbury with the GWR stopping services between Westbury/Salisbury and Swindon via Melksham. Seems to be what the local user groups are predicting, as it can be done with existing rolling stock levels.

 

[MarkyT]

The likelihood is that the Salisbury/Romsey 6 will be connected across Salisbury with the GWR stopping services between Westbury/Salisbury and Swindon via Melksham. Seems to be what the local user groups are predicting, as it can be done with existing rolling stock levels.

That is an extremely enlightened idea resulting from collaboration between two local user groups. It gets better utilisation out of the stock, eliminating regular long layovers to provide new direct connections across Wiltshire and greater frequency on the Melksham line. Genius!

 

[TheWalrus]

The likelihood is that the Salisbury/Romsey 6 will be connected across Salisbury with the GWR stopping services between Westbury/Salisbury and Swindon via Melksham. Seems to be what the local user groups are predicting, as it can be done with existing rolling stock levels.

Is it likely or what they want?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it likely or what they want?

It’s known to be under active investigation by the two TOCs and local authorities along the route. Will subsume the few remaining GWR short workings to Southampton, and provide an all day Swindon to Southampton area service, running 2 hourly north of Salisbury and hourly south of there as now. An hourly Swindon service would need an additional DMU.

 

[Meerkat]

Thinking about bimodes on the Waterloo to Exeter lines I having some questions for you more informed people.
Technical - is it relatively simple to build a DC/diesel bimode that can match the speed/acceleration profiles of the Desiros on the electric?
Operational - how significant a gain would it be? Uniform fast line performance would presumably be welcome to the timetables. More capacity would be very welcome. Maintenance would be complicated - if it stayed at Salisbury then would I presume some 3rd rail would be needed in the depot for testing?? Is there a crushing need for the 159s elsewhere to improve the business case?
Political - could it be done mid franchise and provide cover for a renegotiation without triggering competition issues? Would the reduced pollution in London and release of the 159s to provide diesel capacity elsewhere outweigh any “new trains for the South East, Hand me Downs for the north”?

Of course Personally I just want the very noisy, very smelly 159s away from my line!!

 

[Chester1]

I don't know about the technicalities but even if diesel-DC bi modes are expensive it would be worth doing. The Exeter services mean short services in and out of Waterloo and redoubling the western end of the route would need significant investment. The obvious solution would be a fleet of bi modes splitting and joining, with platform alterations where necessary to allow maximum length at the London end and half that length at the western end.

Cascading would result in some whinging but most Northern passengers would see replacing 155s and 156s with 158s and 159s as an improvement. Northern has stated a wish to start getting rid of sprinters but extra new units would be unlikely and swapping sprinters for higher quality sprinters owned by the same Roscos will probably be the only viable option. Some 158s in a bad state will need to be stripped for parts and scrapped therefore additional higher quality sprinters becoming available (In addition to TfW and EMR 158s) would be welcome.

 

[HSTEd]

Best you can hope for is extension of electrification and fixed formation ten-car sets.
In all likelihood you will get nothing, depending on what shakes out of the Kent route study electrification studies.

 

[Mark J]

Much like the Cotswold Line from Oxford to Worcester, the WoE line should be fully redoubled with a good local and express service offered.

There seems to be an attitude of "well you can travel from Reading for a quicker service to Exeter" - yes, at an increased price.

Also not everyone from Basingstoke and southwards wants to travel to Reading to get to Exeter, especially when a perfectly good rail line exists as present. However as with some others, that line needs a bit of TLC and investment to bring more/better services.