Was wondering what the possibility would be if introducing a fast Exeter to Waterloo service calling at Exeter Central, Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil, Gillingham, Salisbury, Andover, Basingstoke and London Waterloo? The current Salisbury terminatirs would then be extended to Exeter picking up all the current stops. I appreciate this may require a considerable amount of redoubling. Ideally Axminster to Exeter would be double track.
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Idea to improve Waterloo to Exeter
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I would create a third service an hour following the opening of Crossrail 2 which had a similar calling pattern.
Ideally I would also do this (recently posted in another thread, but have previously suggested before):
Run the service with a (fixed length - i.e. only two ends coaches) 10 coach Voyager (comparable capacity to a 9 coach train formed of 159's) and you could have a package which may attract people to use it rather than the GWR route. Especially if the price could be slightly lower and if the journey time was a bit closer.
A third service per hour would he ideal but I believe there are very limited paths into Waterloo hence why I stuck with two as present. In the future, like you say after Crossrail2, this should release more paths and create more opportunities.
In the meantime something like I have proposed may offer some relief to the busy GWR services.
In the meantime something like I have proposed may offer some relief to the busy GWR services.
swt_passenger
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Isn’t the additional 0.5 tph Paddington to Exeter semifast service (part of the full IET timetable) supposed to relieve the longer GWR services anyway?
But any extra Salisbury to Exeter services require further redoubling; and have been proposed already by The Ham numerous times this year in other existing threads.
But any extra Salisbury to Exeter services require further redoubling; and have been proposed already by The Ham numerous times this year in other existing threads.
Yes it should help but a faster Waterloo service would be more attractive.
I’m aware more of Salisbury-Exeter would need to be doubled.
The SWR route to Exeter is basically completely full today with the current regular hourly service. There is no spare capacity for additional trains beyond Salisbury. Introducing additional London trains with a different stopping pattern would undoubtedly require more infrastructure, probably complete redoubling throughout, and possibly additional passing places for expresses to overtake stoppers in the same direction. The service is popular and successful as it is, and due to its simplicity manages to achieve reasonable operating performance. From and between intermediate stations it provides valuable service for numerous local and regional journeys and it provides a competitive bargain price alternative between Exeter and London. I don't believe trying to compete on speed with GWR between Exeter and London is a good use of the line capacity and the additional expense of the infrastructure improvements required. Today the two routes complement each other.
More attractive... to whom? The residents of Axminster and Gillingham? I should think your service will gather relatively few fast London passengers from Yeovil Junction, out in the Dorset countryside, and some of those from Honiton might still find it quicker to change at Exeter St Davids (or quicker still to drive to Taunton).
It would be more attractive from Exeter as currently I prefer traveling to Paddington as it’s much quicker and definitely wouldn’t sit on a 159 for 3 1/2 hours. If it was say 3 or just under and maybe had a decent first class offering with competitive fares, I would be interested.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Agreed! The journey times could never compete with the B&H where's there's long stretches of 100/110 mph running!
Anyway a HST/ IET is much more comfortable than a 159!
In order to compete on price, SWR would have to offer £5-7 advances! With all the work required it really isn't the best use of money!
But having the choice is good, especially of you're prepared to trade time for price, otherwise nobody would take the coach. Also with stops such as Basingstoke, Woking and Clapham Junction on approach to London with wide interchange possibility even from Exeter some journeys to destinations in the south east outside are actually just as fast via Salisbury, and cheaper to boot.
cactustwirly
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GWR offer very cheap advances from places like Reading for just £7 each way!
I don't see what the WoE line adds? It's just a fast London - Salisbury service extended along a country branch line to Exeter
Daily coaches are available between Exeter and London, from both Megabus (up to 4) and National Express (up to 10) at least, to compete with the current West of England and Great Western Mainline offerings.
What the WofE line adds (other than having a wider choice of advance tickets and cheaper anytime/off peak tickets) is the ability for a lot of the Central Southern England area (Brighton, Guildford, Woking, Southampton, Portsmouth, Weymouth, etc.) to be able to get to the West Country without going via Reading/Westbury which can add quite a significant amount of time to the journey.
Given how busy the GWR services can get having an alternative route is helpful in coping with capacity.
Pair a journey with a XC, where they often offer a £10 single for first class travel between Exeter and Plymouth and you can get some good deals.
backontrack
Established Member
What's the rationale of stopping at Axminster but not at Crewkerne? Crewkerne has a larger population (though the station is located outside the town), and the station also serves Ilminster and Chard. Perhap the train could call at both?
43096
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You’ve got that totally the wrong way round. A SWT spec 159 beats a GWR HST or IEP hands down for comfort. I fully expect SWR to dumb down the 159s to restore parity.
Kite159
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The dumbing down started with SWT with the new memory foam seats cushions, not as nice as the old seats.
There’s no reason it couldn’t call at Crewkerne - I based my calling pattern on the stations with the highest usage. You could then extend the Salisburys just to Yeovil then have a stopper from Honiton to Exeter.
VT 390
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I think that the first thing the Waterloo to Salisbury/Exeter route needs in either new or refurbished stock that is bi-mode. This would allow to 159's to move to other parts of the country to replace older stock. Also it would mean you would get rid of diesels out of Waterloo and have slightly improved journey times on the Waterloo to Basingstoke section. If new stock would not be possible to order then would it be possible to convert something like the 458's to a longer distance interior or other stock which is going to be available soon. I think the best way to improve to Waterloo to Exeter route is to have new bi-mode stock on it it in 5 carriage formations which could form 10 carriage trains on the Salisbury to Waterloo section and then split with 5 coaches continuing to Exeter or other destinations as required.
As to what the route offers over the Great Western, it can provide some competitive advanced fares, and overall a more leisurely, less crowded environment.
If one catches an express from Paddington to Exeter, one can reasonably expect to be stuck next to someone all of the way, whereas with a stopper from Waterloo, someone might be next to you some of the way, but you're less likely to be next to them all of the way. The rolling stock also provides a perfectly acceptable environment for a four hour journey.
The key thing for me is that the section West of Salisbury needs to be longer than three carriages, otherwise it gets overcrowded and negates the benefits above.
If one catches an express from Paddington to Exeter, one can reasonably expect to be stuck next to someone all of the way, whereas with a stopper from Waterloo, someone might be next to you some of the way, but you're less likely to be next to them all of the way. The rolling stock also provides a perfectly acceptable environment for a four hour journey.
The key thing for me is that the section West of Salisbury needs to be longer than three carriages, otherwise it gets overcrowded and negates the benefits above.
VT 390
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Although I have travelled on this section with 6 coaches and it all the seats have still been taken by Feniton
To spend all that money on GWML and then spend loads on WoE to create a competitor would be an odd way to spend public money, particularly as it would be for the benefit of London.
Concentrate on the ends. New bi-mode (passive for tri-mode) to speed up on the SWML and better use capacity (and make my local station quieter and more fragrant
), and more doubling for the Devon Metro end. The benefits of these projects for long distance through passengers is just a bonus.
Concentrate on the ends. New bi-mode (passive for tri-mode) to speed up on the SWML and better use capacity (and make my local station quieter and more fragrant
), and more doubling for the Devon Metro end. The benefits of these projects for long distance through passengers is just a bonus.
VT 390
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To spend all that money on GWML and then spend loads on WoE to create a competitor would be an odd way to spend public money, particularly as it would be for the benefit of London.
Concentrate on the ends. New bi-mode (passive for tri-mode) to speed up on the SWML and better use capacity (and make my local station quieter and more fragrant
I think the Devon end as far as Axminster should be half hourly as an Extension of GWR's Barnstaple service once that is operated by 158's and some of the quieter stations between Exeter and Axminster should be missed by the Waterloo service off-peak which should speed it up a little.
That doesn't surprise me. It is a very important regional route.
brad465
Veteran Member
If we're allowed to suggest infrastructure upgrades I'd redouble what is single and do whatever is required to get line speeds up. The long straights of 85/90 could I think do 100mph at least, if resignalling, etc. could be done. Service frequency could be improved to Yeovil with redoubling of Salisbury to Templecombe and line speed increases to go with it, and such improvements further west would help improve services from the Exeter end. Any upgrade would also improve the occasional Reading-Taunton diversions that might use differing parts of the WofE line, depending on what section R-T is closed at the given time. 
What is this all to achieve and is that gain worth the considerable expense?
brad465
Veteran Member
Given it's "Speculative Ideas" what I said is largely hypothetical (something I should have made clearer), as nice as it being reality would be, a complete overhaul is extreme.
However the easiest and most feasible improvements I can see, on top of your Devon Metro suggestion for the western end, would be redoubling Templecombe-Salisbury, giving complete double track from Yeovil (The upgrade of the Cotswold line came to mind with this). Meanwhile the existent extensive earthworks and relative straightness of the line east of Yeovil should mean line speed increases here wouldn't require extensive work, primarily re-signalling, rolling stock of higher speed when renewals are due, and other minor tweaks where needed.
To spend all that money on GWML and then spend loads on WoE to create a competitor would be an odd way to spend public money, particularly as it would be for the benefit of London.
Concentrate on the ends. New bi-mode (passive for tri-mode) to speed up on the SWML and better use capacity (and make my local station quieter and more fragrant
Most of those who would benefit wouldn't be traveling between London and Exeter.
Unless you bring in >20 minutes of journey time savings you're not going to attract many people from London, except those at Waterloo and maybe those who are South East of Clapham who can get there fairly easily yet getting to Paddington is quite an effort.
However there's a large area of Southern England which can get to Woking, Salisbury, Yeovil and to a lesser extent Basingstoke who would, if the services were a little faster could be persuaded to use the WofE line.
The problem with the GWML is that there's not really much more scope for capacity increases for West Country services. As such improving the WofE line wouldn't really be a problem if it diverted a few people off the GWML services as they would just be replaced by other travelers.
I very much agree that bimodal trains could be very useful.
By being 5 coaches long it could increase capacity between Salisbury and Bristol, there could even be scope (depending on the capacity of the line) for the SWR services to Bristol to be more frequent than the current timetable.
You could also look at other direct services to Waterloo, such as Romsey via Southampton and Salisbury or Weymouth via Yeovil.
It could then make the case for electrification westwards if Basingstoke better. This in then could mean that you could ship some of the more minor stations between Basingstoke and the end of the wires by extending the Basingstoke Stoppers to serve them.
Yes you would lose the faster direct journey times to Waterloo, however you would find most people would change trains at Basingstoke, Andoveror Salisbury to the faster trains anyway. Yet you would find that you would attract a lot more people to using the railways.
This would be because:
- 2tph rather than 1tph to those minor stations
- 4tph between Basingstoke and Salisbury/Yeovil making local travel by train much more attractive
- better connections between stations either side of Basingstoke, making rail travel more attractive for those traveling between those two areas (it would also mean that it would be less of a problem that the WofE line services skip Woking as there would still be direct services between there and Andover, Salisbury and Yeovil)
Overall you'd also have:
- more capacity on the existing services as all long services would be 10 coaches and fewer cabs
- scope for more services to be long services (i.e. some services to Exeter being 10 coaches long)
- scope for more Bristol services
- scope for direct services from other side lines (Weymouth and Romsey), with the Weymouth services potentially being as fast as the existing slower services via Southampton
- a massive reduction in diesel engine usage
- potential for the 158/159's to be moved to other TOC's
- large capacity improvements in the Salisbury 6 services by running then as 5 coach trains (would require ASDO due to short platforms, which could be extended at key locations as required)
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