ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[alangla]

I can confirm this refurbed unit Will not be seen in Inverness until the works to the sidings are complete. It may pop up on a driver training run but won't be passengers on it to and from inverness until the works are done

Does the siding work include putting in a power supply? The engines must have been loving the cold starts this week

 

[kylemore]

Yes that's been on the go for a wee while or at least the rumour was.
Good news.

I'm sure I saw a refurbished power car at Kilmarnock around 6 weeks ago - was that just for final checks before entering service?

 

[FQ]

On the 09:46 Inverness-Edinburgh through at the moment with 43134 and 43177. I've used a 170 for part of the route before (a Saturday morning coming south) and the increase in capacity is clearly evident. The acceleration of these things is really quite something too and the comfort increase compared to the 170s is brilliant. Definitely the way forward for Scotland and I look forward to getting more of them over the next week.

 

[najaB]

I'm sure I saw a refurbished power car at Kilmarnock around 6 weeks ago - was that just for final checks before entering service?

Possibly. I'm pretty sure that the power car work was done by Brush rather than Wabtec.

 

[Goldromans]

On the 09:46 Inverness-Edinburgh through at the moment with 43134 and 43177. I've used a 170 for part of the route before (a Saturday morning coming south) and the increase in capacity is clearly evident. The acceleration of these things is really quite something too and the comfort increase compared to the 170s is brilliant. Definitely the way forward for Scotland and I look forward to getting more of them over the next week.

What’s the difference in seating between a refurbished and classic 4-coach HST, do you know?

 

[jingsmonty]

Does the siding work include putting in a power supply? The engines must have been loving the cold starts this week

It SHOULD do, but I doubt it. Not sure if the leading Power Car has been left running (as per the passenger HSTs stabbled in the station) - I suspect it has...although, I've not been involved with the HST training for a wee while, so I'm not sure.

 

[jingsmonty]

What’s the difference in seating between a refurbished and classic 4-coach HST, do you know?

Not sure, but if I remember correctly, a 'High density' Classic standard seats 88 & a 'Low density' seats 84. The refurbished trailer will be less, as there are more tables fitted - think the standard Mk3 (as per LNER) is 72 seats? I could very well be wrong about that!

There will be less 1st class seats too, as the buffet/Conductor's office (cupboard...) is in the 1st class trailer on the 'refurb' too.

 

[FQ]

What’s the difference in seating between a refurbished and classic 4-coach HST, do you know?

I haven't yet tried out a refurbished one unfortunately but this one is a classic. I'm sat in the TGS at the moment and there's 4 bays of 4 in this coach with the rest all being airline style seating. I'm led to believe that the refurbished sets have more bays of 4 than this, probably at the expense of a few seats but at an increase in journey experience, particularly on those scenic sections owing to the better view possible.

 

[jingsmonty]

On the 09:46 Inverness-Edinburgh through at the moment with 43134 and 43177. I've used a 170 for part of the route before (a Saturday morning coming south) and the increase in capacity is clearly evident. The acceleration of these things is really quite something too and the comfort increase compared to the 170s is brilliant. Definitely the way forward for Scotland and I look forward to getting more of them over the next week.

It's even more noticeable when you're in the front cab - they are, far and away, the most enjoyable trains that I've had the privelege to take the controls of! Having travelled as a passenger (from Perth to Glasgow QS) as well, I'd have to agree with you 100% - they really are a major step up for Scotland's InterCity (sorry, Inter7City....) network - the 'Refurb' sets will be even better (the station dwell time issues will be a thing of the past, as will the brown stuff' on the tracks).

 

[jingsmonty]

I haven't yet tried out a refurbished one unfortunately but this one is a classic. I'm sat in the TGS at the moment and there's 4 bays of 4 in this coach with the rest all being airline style seating. I'm led to believe that the refurbished sets have more bays of 4 than this, probably at the expense of a few seats but at an increase in journey experience, particularly on those scenic sections owing to the better view possible.

There is a far bigger proportion of tables to airline seats than the classics have - the classic sets are a consequence of GWR increasing the capacity of the coaches. Personally, I don't think think they're that bad, the leg room is good (& I'm reasonably tall), better than a 170/158 - I usually go for an airline seat, but I realise that most people seem to prefer tables. I just get tired of trying not to kick whoever is sitting opposite me in the shins...!

 

[FQ]

It's even more noticeable when you're in the front cab - they are, far and away, the most enjoyable trains that I've had the privelege to take the controls of! Having travelled as a passenger (from Perth to Glasgow QS) as well, I'd have to agree with you 100% - they really are a major step up for Scotland's InterCity (sorry, Inter7City....) network - the 'Refurb' sets will be even better (the station dwell time issues will be a thing of the past, as will the brown stuff' on the tracks).

The station dwell times haven't been a huge issue on this run really (we lost 10 minutes earlier on but that was due to a late running unit heading north) but definitely not as quick as the refurb set would be. I'm definitely looking forward to when more of the trains up here are HSTs.

There is a far bigger proportion of tables to airline seats than the classics have - the classic sets are a consequence of GWR increasing the capacity of the coaches. Personally, I don't think think they're that bad, the leg room is good (& I'm reasonably tall), better than a 170/158 - I usually go for an airline seat, but I realise that most people seem to prefer tables. I just get tired of trying not to kick whoever is sitting opposite me in the shins...!

It does show that the seats are crammed in. I'm also tall and the leg room is definitely not a problem (although I've been sat in a priority seat for the last 3 and a quarter hours for the window view and additional legroom) but I don't like the height of the seats as you don't have a panoramic view. That's one of the reasons I really like IC70s - you can see everything that's going on without a problem.
Agreed regarding table seats but if the legroom is good enough then it isn't an issue. Unfortunately on the classic sets the legroom in tables is poor so I tend to avoid them if I think the train will get busy.

 

[Goldromans]

Rather random question, but the early CGI concept photos of the ScotRail HST’s showed a saltire X on the nose of the power cars. Does anyone know if there was a reason why this was dropped? I know a fair few things changed from those original photos, but I personally think the X would have been a nice touch!

 

[chuff chuff]

I'm sure I saw a refurbished power car at Kilmarnock around 6 weeks ago - was that just for final checks before entering service?

Some of the classic sets were down at Kilmarnock somewhere to I assume get them in the right order and whatever.

 

[scotrail170407]

I was at Edinburgh Waverley today and was just going to bash the 16:28 to Aberdeen (which was an HST) to Haymarket, however on Realtimetrains it said that it was scheduled to call at Haymarket, however on the boards at Waverley it said it went straight to Cupar? Does anyone know why it missed Haymarket, or if it did actually stop?

 

[FQ]

I was at Edinburgh Waverley today and was just going to bash the 16:28 to Aberdeen (which was an HST) to Haymarket, however on Realtimetrains it said that it was scheduled to call at Haymarket, however on the boards at Waverley it said it went straight to Cupar? Does anyone know why it missed Haymarket, or if it did actually stop?

Booked to pick up only at Haymarket. The train will have stopped at Haymarket but it isn't advertised at Waverley to do so in order to prevent short distance passengers taking up space on a long distance service.

 

[scotrail170407]

Booked to pick up only at Haymarket. The train will have stopped at Haymarket but it isn't advertised at Waverley to do so in order to prevent short distance passengers taking up space on a long distance service.

Ah I had a feeling it was something along the lines of that. Thanks for the info bud

 

[aar0]

It SHOULD do, but I doubt it. Not sure if the leading Power Car has been left running (as per the passenger HSTs stabbled in the station)

Can HSTs do "ship to ship" power? Ie HST 1 has 1 engine running, and a bulky cable to HST 2, keeping 4 engines warm but only running the 1?

 

[jingsmonty]

The station dwell times haven't been a huge issue on this run really (we lost 10 minutes earlier on but that was due to a late running unit heading north) but definitely not as quick as the refurb set would be. I'm definitely looking forward to when more of the trains up here are HSTs.


It does show that the seats are crammed in. I'm also tall and the leg room is definitely not a problem (although I've been sat in a priority seat for the last 3 and a quarter hours for the window view and additional legroom) but I don't like the height of the seats as you don't have a panoramic view. That's one of the reasons I really like IC70s - you can see everything that's going on without a problem.
Agreed regarding table seats but if the legroom is good enough then it isn't an issue. Unfortunately on the classic sets the legroom in tables is poor so I tend to avoid them if I think the train will get busy.

You & me both - the LNER set with IC70s would be my ideal for a long trip - I took an HST from Aberdeen to Plymouth many Years ago & sat in total comfort in an IC70 airline for 12hrs or so!

I don't like the grammer seats on the classics, but they do seem to be better pitched than the same seats on the Inverness 158s - I believe the refurbished sets, whilst having the same seats, have had the bolsters replaced, retaining just the seat frames - can anybody confirm that, as I'm not sure!

On the upside, the 2156 Aberdeen - Inverness was an HST tonight...

 

[jingsmonty]

Can HSTs do "ship to ship" power? Ie HST 1 has 1 engine running, and a bulky cable to HST 2, keeping 4 engines warm but only running the 1?

Haven't a clue, to be honest - I doubt it though. There's nowhere I can think of where there'd be room to stable 2 HST sets nose to nose (& I don't think it's permitted to anyway).

 

[big all]

Can HSTs do "ship to ship" power? Ie HST 1 has 1 engine running, and a bulky cable to HST 2, keeping 4 engines warm but only running the 1?

never ever used to be say 25 years ago
power was always for control circuits or intermediate supply power but never to power car to power car "jump" start power i am not talking hst or other locos but perhaps first generation thumpers or metcammels
i suggested "train line " jump lead would be handy but was informed the tecknical requirements would be massive over the 2 or so % off the time it would solve a problem as it may automatically transfer a "problem" from one area to another

 

[route101]

Ah I had a feeling it was something along the lines of that. Thanks for the info bud

Probably nothing would happen if you got off

 

[jingsmonty]

Rather random question, but the early CGI concept photos of the ScotRail HST’s showed a saltire X on the nose of the power cars. Does anyone know if there was a reason why this was dropped? I know a fair few things changed from those original photos, but I personally think the X would have been a nice touch!

I think the original plan was to paint the HSTs with the generic 'Saltire' livery, but then it was decided to market the HST services as a specific "Inter7City" train, to differentiate them from local trains. I think the 385s on the E & G are branded " Express" as well?

Personally, I thought HSTs would have quite suited the "Saltire" livery, but the current livery looks quite classy

 

[EIKN]

On the same vein as , Scotrail ' Express '
Is there Scope to cascade a few class 91 sets ( once the dreadful IET) starts running up the ECML.
( Does LNER run services at the moment with any stood between from EDI-GLA?) , Scope for running a ' Scotrail Express' albiet shortened to say 6 coaches including Buffet car to run the kind of High speed service , ms Sturgeon spoke of, when proposing a new ' High speed line ' between the two cities .
Also keeping to the ' Scotrail Express' ', those West Coast lines , Oban, Fort William, Mallaig where for years all loco hauled, some having loco hauled specials now
Also given the model railway products showing HST/ Mark 3 in Scotrail lighblue stripe ( Intercity) where did they run?.
Could the cascaded HST's run up the West Coast to provide a huge improvement over the current class 156.
Which is a lot worse than even a 158.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not sure that's really necessary is it? 50 mins ish at 4tph for a 50 mile journey between two cities really isn't bad.

 

[Esker-pades]

There's already a thread for @EIKN 's first proposal:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-lines-between-edinburgh-and-glasgow.170988/

I'm not sure that's really necessary is it? 50 mins ish at 4tph for a 50 mile journey between two cities really isn't bad.

Scheduled to come down to 42-45 minutes in May 2019.

 

[Goldromans]

I think the original plan was to paint the HSTs with the generic 'Saltire' livery, but then it was decided to market the HST services as a specific "Inter7City" train, to differentiate them from local trains. I think the 385s on the E & G are branded " Express" as well?

Personally, I thought HSTs would have quite suited the "Saltire" livery, but the current livery looks quite classy

Interesting to know, but I was actually referring to the little X on the very front of the power cars, like the Virgin 390/221s have the Virgin Badge on the front. Can be seen on the first CGI pics released of the Seven Cities livery.

Do we know if there’s any plans to have HST services advertised as “ScotRail Inter7City” on departure boards, like the 385 services are advertised as “ScotRail Express”? Or if they plan advertise the on-board cafe on the board, like Virgin do with their shop? I personally think that’d be a great idea, since it’s a new feature to ScotRail services. This might prove difficult for the moment with the lack of refurbished sets and the constant substitutions, but can see it working very well when there’s a solid number of refurbished sets in service!

 

[jingsmonty]

Interesting to know, but I was actually referring to the little X on the very front of the power cars, like the Virgin 390/221s have the Virgin Badge on the front. Can be seen on the first CGI pics released of the Seven Cities livery.

Do we know if there’s any plans to have HST services advertised as “ScotRail Inter7City” on departure boards, like the 385 services are advertised as “ScotRail Express”? Or if they plan advertise the on-board cafe on the board, like Virgin do with their shop? I personally think that’d be a great idea, since it’s a new feature to ScotRail services. This might prove difficult for the moment with the lack of refurbished sets and the constant substitutions, but can see it working very well when there’s a solid number of refurbished sets in service!

Great idea! I would have thought it was a possibility, otherwise why bother with the "Inter7City" branding at all?

Apologies on the confusion on the "x" on the front - it did look good, I agree.

 

[43096]

Can HSTs do "ship to ship" power? Ie HST 1 has 1 engine running, and a bulky cable to HST 2, keeping 4 engines warm but only running the 1?

Having consulted two knowledgeable HST engineering people the answer is, yes it is technically possible.

 

[route101]

On the same vein as , Scotrail ' Express '
Is there Scope to cascade a few class 91 sets ( once the dreadful IET) starts running up the ECML.
( Does LNER run services at the moment with any stood between from EDI-GLA?) , Scope for running a ' Scotrail Express' albiet shortened to say 6 coaches including Buffet car to run the kind of High speed service , ms Sturgeon spoke of, when proposing a new ' High speed line ' between the two cities .
Also keeping to the ' Scotrail Express' ', those West Coast lines , Oban, Fort William, Mallaig where for years all loco hauled, some having loco hauled specials now
Also given the model railway products showing HST/ Mark 3 in Scotrail lighblue stripe ( Intercity) where did they run?.
Could the cascaded HST's run up the West Coast to provide a huge improvement over the current class 156.
Which is a lot worse than even a 158.

What do mean by LNER sets stood between Edinburgh and Glasgow?

 

[47271]

I haven't been studying Journeycheck every day, I've got better things to do, but am I right in thinking that the number of inter city cancellations and 170 to 158 substitutions has dropped right down in the last week to ten days?

I've had nothing cancelled on me since mid January and everything that I've caught has been a 170. No HSTs, refurbished or otherwise, obviously.

I suspect that this has more to do with more 385s entering service and getting diesels off the electric routes than anything else, but HST training must be more under control as well. The Highland Main Line definitely feels a lot less chaotic than it did in the early new year.

Maybe I've just been lucky.