EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[dosxuk]

The £350m was only ever the gross figure, which ignored the money we get back. Then there's the extra costs we will incur to replace that part of the money going to the EU for joint projects. And then there's the additional costs we will incur due to not being part of the EU. Take them all into account and we'd be lucky to see 35p. And all that's before the massive one-off costs we will have.

Don't forget the decrease in the value of the pound meaning that £350m doesn't but as much as it did back in 2016. Or the contraction in the economy meaning the tax take goes down. There's good evidence that the £350m "windfall" has already been lost due to the decrease in GDP and the value of the pound. And that's before we stop sending the money.

As you say, the economics have never added up.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Interesting indeed. The abuse they suffered must have been coming from REMAIN supporters who, we are constantly being told, are paragons of virtue.

The same way people saying all brexiteers are racist its not true.... No one to blame but yourself if you believe fake news such as that.

This whole divide and conquer strategy from the tories has brought out the extremes of every political persuasion. Much to the annoyance of reasonable human beings.

 

[thenorthern]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about Teesside as they wanted to know what its like and I mentioned how its sadly now known for its high rates of deprivation. In Teesside in particular its very hard to see how the EU helps jobs there as 50 years ago it had a large coal industry which many people blame Thatcher for closing although the EU is partially to blame (Also I think I read Harold Wilson closed the most mines in County Durham). It also had a fairly large fishing industry which again the EU has taken away. Finally Teesside Steelworks, the steel industry in the United Kingdom has been seriously affected by bad EU policy on our Steel industry recently.

Also I was reading something interesting about how in the referendum the EU the remain side struggled at times to get big name companies to endorse them. With the supermarkets for example out of the big four only ASDA officially endorsed remain whereas Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons all refused to back remain stating that they were non-political and they would continue to serve their customers whatever the result of the referendum. If you think about it this is a major blow as supermarkets are the companies that the public have the most dealings with as food prices are a concern for a lot of people also people regularly visit supermarkets.

With the banks as well remain had a problem as yes the big multinational investment banks such as JPMorgan Chase endorsed remain but think about it what financial dealings do most the public have with JPMorgan Chase? Mostly none. With the high street banks Barclays (which has the most bank branches) would only say in a statement that "it was the best interests of customers to remain in the EU". Lloyds Banking Group (which has the most customers out of all the banks) also refused to endorse either side and went further than Barclays by saying that the vote was "ultimately a matter for the British people" which is explicitly clear in not endorsing either side. This meant that remain couldn't claim that all the banks wanted to remain.

 

[cactustwirly]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about Teesside as they wanted to know what its like and I mentioned how its sadly now known for its high rates of deprivation. In Teesside in particular its very hard to see how the EU helps jobs there as 50 years ago it had a large coal industry which many people blame Thatcher for closing although the EU is partially to blame (Also I think I read Harold Wilson closed the most mines in County Durham). It also had a fairly large fishing industry which again the EU has taken away. Finally Teesside Steelworks, the steel industry in the United Kingdom has been seriously affected by bad EU policy on our Steel industry recently.

Also I was reading something interesting about how in the referendum the EU the remain side struggled at times to get big name companies to endorse them. With the supermarkets for example out of the big four only ASDA officially endorsed remain whereas Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons all refused to back remain stating that they were non-political and they would continue to serve their customers whatever the result of the referendum. If you think about it this is a major blow as supermarkets are the companies that the public have the most dealings with as food prices are a concern for a lot of people also people regularly visit supermarkets.

With the banks as well remain had a problem as yes the big multinational investment banks such as JPMorgan Chase endorsed remain but think about it what financial dealings do most the public have with JPMorgan Chase? Mostly none. With the high street banks Barclays (which has the most bank branches) would only say in a statement that "it was the best interests of customers to remain in the EU". Lloyds Banking Group (which has the most customers out of all the banks) also refused to endorse either side and went further than Barclays by saying that the vote was "ultimately a matter for the British people" which is explicitly clear in not endorsing either side. This meant that remain couldn't claim that all the banks wanted to remain.

But coal mining was an unsustainable industry anyway, especially when imports from China etc, are a lot cheaper.
As for Fishing, the EU measures are ultimately there to preserve the Fish stocks, as we were previously overfishing.

Teeside needs better, more sustainable jobs, like car manufacturing, which the EU provides through single market access.
Don't forget that Hitachi and Nissan have plants in the area.

 

[nlogax]

Also I was reading something interesting about how in the referendum the EU the remain side struggled at times to get big name companies to endorse them. With the supermarkets for example out of the big four only ASDA officially endorsed remain whereas Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons all refused to back remain stating that they were non-political and they would continue to serve their customers whatever the result of the referendum. If you think about it this is a major blow as supermarkets are the companies that the public have the most dealings with as food prices are a concern for a lot of people also people regularly visit supermarkets.

Relevant; today a letter from the British Retail Consortium has gone to all MPs, co-signed by Sainsbury’s, Morrisons, Co-op, Lidl, M&S and Waitrose amongst others.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...urys-asda-waitrose-supermarkets-a8750466.html

Sainsbury's, Asda, Waitrose and Marks & Spencer are among a host of large retailers to warn MPs that a no-deal Brexit in March would put the UK's food security at risk.

The supermarkets signed an open letter to MPs written by the British Retail Consortium (BRC) on Monday urging the government to prevent crashing out of the EU.

The group, which also includes Lidl, The Co-op, Pret a Manger and KFC wrote: "Our supply chains are closely linked to Europe – nearly one third of the food we eat in the UK comes from the EU. In March the situation is more acute as UK produce is out of season: 90% of our lettuces, 80% of our tomatoes and 70% of our soft fruit is sourced from the EU at that time of year.

 

[Mag_seven]

Relevant; today a letter from the British Retail Consortium has gone to all MPs, co-signed by Sainsbury’s, Morrisons, Co-op, Lidl, M&S and Waitrose amongst others.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...urys-asda-waitrose-supermarkets-a8750466.html

Sainsbury's, Asda, Waitrose and Marks & Spencer are among a host of large retailers to warn MPs that a no-deal Brexit in March would put the UK's food security at risk.

The supermarkets signed an open letter to MPs written by the British Retail Consortium (BRC) on Monday urging the government to prevent crashing out of the EU.

The group, which also includes Lidl, The Co-op, Pret a Manger and KFC wrote: "Our supply chains are closely linked to Europe – nearly one third of the food we eat in the UK comes from the EU. In March the situation is more acute as UK produce is out of season: 90% of our lettuces, 80% of our tomatoes and 70% of our soft fruit is sourced from the EU at that time of year.

Expect Jacob Rees-Mogg etc to be along shortly to claim that its all "project fear" and that they know more about the effect of a no-deal Brexit on food supplies than the British Retail Consortium.

 

[HH]

Also I was reading something interesting about how in the referendum the EU the remain side struggled at times to get big name companies to endorse them. With the supermarkets for example out of the big four only ASDA officially endorsed remain whereas Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons all refused to back remain stating that they were non-political and they would continue to serve their customers whatever the result of the referendum. If you think about it this is a major blow as supermarkets are the companies that the public have the most dealings with as food prices are a concern for a lot of people also people regularly visit supermarkets.

Come on, are you really that naive? Big companies didn't want to endorse either side, because they knew it would alienate 50% of their customers. I'm actually surprised that any retail business (and I include High St Banks in that) came out for either side.

 

[Esker-pades]

Given how quickly Scottish supermarkets started having shortages of food during the "Beast from the East" last year, any delay at getting food into the country will be noticed within a few days.

 

[thenorthern]

Come on, are you really that naive? Big companies didn't want to endorse either side, because they knew it would alienate 50% of their customers. I'm actually surprised that any retail business (and I include High St Banks in that) came out for either side.

Sort of as with Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsburys not even the current management of the companies endorsed either side. With Lloyds Banking Group I am told there is more to it than not wanting to alienate customers, the current chairman Lord Blackwell has many times said before and after the EU Referendum that the EU needs to have major reform and that the current arrangements would be ultimately unsustainable.

But coal mining was an unsustainable industry anyway, especially when imports from China etc, are a lot cheaper.
As for Fishing, the EU measures are ultimately there to preserve the Fish stocks, as we were previously overfishing.

Teeside needs better, more sustainable jobs, like car manufacturing, which the EU provides through single market access.
Don't forget that Hitachi and Nissan have plants in the area.

Sort of with steel in particular one of the problems was that the UK market was being flooded with Chinese state subsidised steel at a price British steelmakers couldn't compete at. In this situation the most logical thing for most countries would be to either 1) give state aid 2) increase tariffs on steel imports but EU rules prevented both of these from happening.

The single market has been a mixed blessing for manufacturing, back in 2011 I remember when the Class 700 contract was being awarded and it was controversially given to Siemens who were building trains in Germany rather than Bombardier who were going to build them in Derby. The Government stated that EU law required this to happen.

With train building in particular think about it by 2005 the United Kingdom was down to one train factory (Bombardier Derby) and most trains were being built abroad, Newton Aycliffe of course opened in 2015. Since the EU Referendum however CAF has announced a new plant in Newport, Taglo has announced a new plant in Longannet, Siemens has announced a plant in Goole and I think there might be more things happening with other companies. I would imagine that building trains in the United Kingdom will now be a factor in awarding contracts for trains post brexit.

Don't get me wrong I do understand that the Single Market has benefited companies a lot and leaving it will create a lot of uncertainty. However at the same time the EU single market does have its flaws which given that its the EU they weren't going to change.

 

[Basher]

Simple answer NO.
But I bet someone within the wheels of government is working on it.
I see project fear has been at it again. No tomatoes, salad produce etc. will be available.
Just think of all that horticulture Spanish Investment collapsing, mountains of produce rotting, all that plastic waste off the poly tents they just through away. ( I saw the TV programme about it a few weeks ago and slave African labour too)
We could import from say Africa, in a FAIR TRADE agreement, giving those people a living.
I concede that in the short term we will have upset but it will all workout.

 

[Esker-pades]

Simple answer NO.
But I bet someone within the wheels of government is working on it.
I see project fear has been at it again. No tomatoes, salad produce etc. will be available.

Simply, if we leave without a deal, then importing stuff will take longer than it already does. Given that a lot of our food is imported and this relies on very tight time margins, it is perfectly reasonable to have concerns about there being a shortage of food etc.

Just think of all that horticulture Spanish Investment collapsing, mountains of produce rotting, all that plastic waste off the poly tents they just through away.

A no deal will be bad for everyone. That doesn't somehow make our position better.

( I saw the TV programme about it a few weeks ago and slave African labour too)

How lovely.

We could import from say Africa, in a FAIR TRADE agreement, giving those people a living.

We could import from Africa, but it would be more expensive because we would be importing things further, worse for the environment and it would take years to set up a trade agreement with the various African states that export the different things that we need.

I concede that in the short term we will have upset but it will all workout.

How long is the short term? How can you be so sure that it will work out?

 

[nlogax]

I see project fear has been at it again

I take it listening to experts isn't your thing. Why don't you run a supermarket so we can benefit from your wisdom and expertise?

 

[alex397]

I take it listening to experts isn't your thing. Why don't you run a supermarket so we can benefit from your wisdom and expertise?

Well, what do experts know? Comments from random people on social media make much more sense.

Just watching BBC News now. When a member of the general public was asked about possible difficulties about getting fresh food with a no-deal Brexit - "Its just scaremongering. It will do us good to do without for a while - make us appreciate what we had" . Yeah, sure....
Classic 'finger in the ear' Brexiteer response.

 

[Howardh]

. It will do us good to do without for a while - make us appreciate what we had" .

The EU.....

 

[Howardh]

Simple answer NO.
But I bet someone within the wheels of government is working on it.

Which government?
Tthe one that's made a terrific success of negotiation out departure (or not) from the EU? The one that was behind the £10bn NHS computer fiasco? The one that has completely effedup the Railways - up here at least? The one that's turned our thriving market towns into tumbleweed deserts? The one that couldn't even make a traffic jam at rush hour on a Monday? The one that held a general election when they were twenty points ahead and lost all their majority? The one where the chief negotiator doesn't know how important Dover/Calais is??
That one?
Or maybe you are thinking the German government, or Dutch doing it for us? If so I apologise

 

[Esker-pades]

Well, what do experts know? Comments from random people on social media make much more sense.

Just watching BBC News now. When a member of the general public was asked about possible difficulties about getting fresh food with a no-deal Brexit - "Its just scaremongering. It will do us good to do without for a while - make us appreciate what we had" . Yeah, sure....
Classic 'finger in the ear' Brexiteer response.

2016: There will be no downsides to Brexit
2019: Starvation is good for you

 

[Howardh]

2016: There will be no downsides to Brexit
2019: Starvation is good for you

They should have put it on the side of a bus that the NHS/pharmacists would have to stockpile vital drugs and medicines. Would have given them another two million votes at least. And they could have added that we will be enjoying extra-long queues inside hot and sticky airports going on our hols, due to us being lifted up into the stratosphere of being a third country and our passport being insufficient. But most of all, they have now decided there will be "adequate food".

 

[simonw]

Sort of as with Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsburys not even the current management of the companies endorsed either side. With Lloyds Banking Group I am told there is more to it than not wanting to alienate customers, the current chairman Lord Blackwell has many times said before and after the EU Referendum that the EU needs to have major reform and that the current arrangements would be ultimately unsustainable.



Sort of with steel in particular one of the problems was that the UK market was being flooded with Chinese state subsidised steel at a price British steelmakers couldn't compete at. In this situation the most logical thing for most countries would be to either 1) give state aid 2) increase tariffs on steel imports but EU rules prevented both of these from happening.

The single market has been a mixed blessing for manufacturing, back in 2011 I remember when the Class 700 contract was being awarded and it was controversially given to Siemens who were building trains in Germany rather than Bombardier who were going to build them in Derby. The Government stated that EU law required this to happen.

With train building in particular think about it by 2005 the United Kingdom was down to one train factory (Bombardier Derby) and most trains were being built abroad, Newton Aycliffe of course opened in 2015. Since the EU Referendum however CAF has announced a new plant in Newport, Taglo has announced a new plant in Longannet, Siemens has announced a plant in Goole and I think there might be more things happening with other companies. I would imagine that building trains in the United Kingdom will now be a factor in awarding contracts for trains post brexit.

Don't get me wrong I do understand that the Single Market has benefited companies a lot and leaving it will create a lot of uncertainty. However at the same time the EU single market does have its flaws which given that its the EU they weren't going to change.

The opposite is true. The EU wanted to impose tariffs on steel imports, the UK stopped them doing so. Blame the Tories not the EU.

 

[nidave]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about Teesside as they wanted to know what its like and I mentioned how its sadly now known for its high rates of deprivation. In Teesside in particular its very hard to see how the EU helps jobs there as 50 years ago it had a large coal industry which many people blame Thatcher for closing although the EU is partially to blame (Also I think I read Harold Wilson closed the most mines in County Durham). It also had a fairly large fishing industry which again the EU has taken away. Finally Teesside Steelworks, the steel industry in the United Kingdom has been seriously affected by bad EU policy on our Steel industry recently.

Also I was reading something interesting about how in the referendum the EU the remain side struggled at times to get big name companies to endorse them. With the supermarkets for example out of the big four only ASDA officially endorsed remain whereas Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons all refused to back remain stating that they were non-political and they would continue to serve their customers whatever the result of the referendum. If you think about it this is a major blow as supermarkets are the companies that the public have the most dealings with as food prices are a concern for a lot of people also people regularly visit supermarkets.

With the banks as well remain had a problem as yes the big multinational investment banks such as JPMorgan Chase endorsed remain but think about it what financial dealings do most the public have with JPMorgan Chase? Mostly none. With the high street banks Barclays (which has the most bank branches) would only say in a statement that "it was the best interests of customers to remain in the EU". Lloyds Banking Group (which has the most customers out of all the banks) also refused to endorse either side and went further than Barclays by saying that the vote was "ultimately a matter for the British people" which is explicitly clear in not endorsing either side. This meant that remain couldn't claim that all the banks wanted to remain.

Didn't the UK vote against the eu implementing tarrifs against Chinese steel?
It keeps getting mentioned time and time again. The problems within the UK are of its own making and we have always had the power to sort out. But it's easier to blame things like the eu.


This afternoon, the health secrerary Matt Hancock told a Parliamentary committee that “medicines will be prioritised [over food] in the event of a no-deal Brexit”.
Suppose that's also project fear. At least I will get my meds.

 

[ainsworth74]

Earlier today I was talking to someone about Teesside as they wanted to know what its like and I mentioned how its sadly now known for its high rates of deprivation. In Teesside in particular its very hard to see how the EU helps jobs there as 50 years ago it had a large coal industry which many people blame Thatcher for closing although the EU is partially to blame (Also I think I read Harold Wilson closed the most mines in County Durham). It also had a fairly large fishing industry which again the EU has taken away. Finally Teesside Steelworks, the steel industry in the United Kingdom has been seriously affected by bad EU policy on our Steel industry recently.

Coal?! Coal?!? Try steel, chemicals and shipbuilding! We had nowt to do with coal round these parts. That was County Durham and Yorkshire that got down and dirty. The closest we came to mining is potash and anhydrite none of that dirty coal!

Sort of with steel in particular one of the problems was that the UK market was being flooded with Chinese state subsidised steel at a price British steelmakers couldn't compete at. In this situation the most logical thing for most countries would be to either 1) give state aid 2) increase tariffs on steel imports but EU rules prevented both of these from happening.

It could have given state aid (and in the case of Port Talbot did) and indeed a report from one think tank has suggested that we could give triple the amount of state aid than we do currently!

Britain could triple state aid spending to industry without breaching EU rules, according to a study that compares government subsidies to promote economic growth across Europe.

EU state aid rules “do not prevent an active industrial policy”, the report found, giving the green light to the UK government for an increase in its £7bn of state aid to nearer £21bn.

You'll forgive me but the blame lies with government ideology not with EU rules. You will notice that steel plants do still exist on the continent. I wonder if that isn't because their governments decided to provide more aid than ours?

The single market has been a mixed blessing for manufacturing, back in 2011 I remember when the Class 700 contract was being awarded and it was controversially given to Siemens who were building trains in Germany rather than Bombardier who were going to build them in Derby. The Government stated that EU law required this to happen.

EU rules require open competition. If Bombardier had been able to better the bid made by Siemens they would have won the order. It's also worth recalling that whilst they weren't built here there was still a reasonable amount of UK content and Siemens Rail employ more people in the UK than Bombardier.

With train building in particular think about it by 2005 the United Kingdom was down to one train factory (Bombardier Derby) and most trains were being built abroad, Newton Aycliffe of course opened in 2015. Since the EU Referendum however CAF has announced a new plant in Newport, Taglo has announced a new plant in Longannet, Siemens has announced a plant in Goole and I think there might be more things happening with other companies.

How many factories are there in Germany? France? Italy? How many vehicles do they produce per year? Why are they more competative than UK producers were? The EU didn't require us to close down factories. If they'd been profitable and winning orders they'd still be open.

I would imagine that building trains in the United Kingdom will now be a factor in awarding contracts for trains post brexit.

I am under the impression that there's nothing in the rules that prevents your tender specifiying either "home" country manufacture or "x percentage" of production in your "home" country. However, of course, if the Government choose not to take advantage of this how is it then the EUs fault?

 

[Basher]

I take it listening to experts isn't your thing. Why don't you run a supermarket so we can benefit from your wisdom and expertise?

Your do not believe what they say, look who did not sign the letter ie Morrisons. They probably looking for an excuse to justify raising prices.
PS Morrisons have their own horticultural unit in Europe.

 

[Ianno87]

Well, what do experts know? Comments from random people on social media make much more sense.

Just watching BBC News now. When a member of the general public was asked about possible difficulties about getting fresh food with a no-deal Brexit - "Its just scaremongering. It will do us good to do without for a while - make us appreciate what we had" . Yeah, sure....
Classic 'finger in the ear' Brexiteer response.

I bet same said person is the first to shout at supermarket staff when they're sold out of the washing power they like and how 'ridiculous' it is.

 

[Mag_seven]

When a member of the general public was asked about possible difficulties about getting fresh food with a no-deal Brexit - "Its just scaremongering. It will do us good to do without for a while"

They obviously expect to dine off roast unicorn.

 

[nlogax]

They probably looking for an excuse to justify raising prices.

Jesus H Christ...

Prices will go up in the event of interruption to the supply. You get that, don't you? Please say you do.

 

[Ianno87]

Jesus H Christ...

Prices will go up in the event of interruption to the supply. You get that, don't you? Please say you do.

Page 1 of the Economics textbook. A lower supply means higher market price in a free market. You really, really don't have to be an 'Expert' for that one...

 

[AM9]

I bet same said person is the first to shout at supermarket staff when they're sold out of the washing power they like and how 'ridiculous' it is.

I thought that he contradicted his initial sentence. If it is project fear, then it won't happen so why comment on the benefits of it? Maybe so many leavers now have 'project fear' hardwired into their brains as a disfluency that they don't realise they are voicing.

 

[Giugiaro]

Just checked the "Leave Means Leave" website out of curiosity.

Curiously found out about the movement from a Bus. How ironic.

 

[Basher]

Jesus H Christ...

Prices will go up in the event of interruption to the supply. You get that, don't you? Please say you do.

Get this, study economics I did. Supply and demand. SUPPLY IS LIKELY TO GO UP, from the rest of the world and may be cheaper .
Europe will have a shrunken market if we buy from others. Remember what I said sometime ago. Hugh traffis are put on food outside the EU ie beef.

 

[JonasB]

How many factories are there in Germany? France? Italy? How many vehicles do they produce per year? Why are they more competative than UK producers were?

They can deliver their vehicles to most of Europe quite easy. How do you deliver a vehicle built for German or Dutch loading gauge from a factory in Derby?

 

[Billy A]

They can deliver their vehicles to most of Europe quite easy. How do you deliver a vehicle built for German or Dutch loading gauge from a factory in Derby?

By road and ship or tunnel, though I doubt if it'll actually happen as there's already overcapacity in mainland Europe.