Poll: What are your suggestions for the future redundant HST sets?

[hooverboy]

who would run it? Where would the drivers come from? How would you make sure they had the right route knowledge?

I spy with my little eye........satnav for trains!!!!

coming soon once the ancient GSM-R is done away with .
Then you get real time track information,including speed limits, crossings,inclines,low adhesion zones etc.

sorts out the driver route knowledge requirements a bit.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I spy with my little eye........satnav for trains!!!!

coming soon once the ancient GSM-R is done away with .
Then you get real time track information,including speed limits, crossings,inclines,low adhesion zones etc.

sorts out the driver route knowledge requirements a bit.

Good idea in principle. However a satnav doesn’t replace the knowledge for London Taxi drivers (they have been shown to repeatedly beat satnavs) and I doubt they will for trains.

GSMR isn’t going anywhere soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good idea in principle. However a satnav doesn’t replace the knowledge for London Taxi drivers (they have been shown to repeatedly beat satnavs) and I doubt they will for trains.

GSMR isn’t going anywhere soon.

Isn't that approach basically the Buchfahrplan that DB have used in lieu of UK style route learning for years?

 

[hooverboy]

GSMR isn’t going anywhere soon.

Oh yes it will!
It's ancient!.GSM is basically 30 years old!(2G)
Next came GPRS(2.5G)
Then WCDMA(3G)..That is Y2K..everyone remembers the dotcom bust and companies like marconi hitting the wall!

trials now under way for LTE-R in some countries(LTE is about 8 years old now..developed 2010,commercially available by early 2013),so even that is now "old"

we're up to advanced LTE (LAA-rolling out now), and 5G( in pre-production phase now -commercial release around 2020).
..so GSM is 5 generations back.

in technological terms it is obsolete.

in terms of data carrying capacity,it's the railway equivalent of still using dial-up modems,when we now have fibre optic available.

 

[train_lover]

I spy with my little eye........satnav for trains!!!!

coming soon once the ancient GSM-R is done away with .
Then you get real time track information,including speed limits, crossings,inclines,low adhesion zones etc.

sorts out the driver route knowledge requirements a bit.

Das...

 

[yorksrob]

Oh yes it will!
It's ancient!.GSM is basically 30 years old!(2G)
Next came GPRS(2.5G)
Then WCDMA(3G)..That is Y2K..everyone remembers the dotcom bust and companies like marconi hitting the wall!

trials now under way for LTE-R in some countries(LTE is about 8 years old now..developed 2010,commercially available by early 2013),so even that is now "old"

we're up to advanced LTE (LAA-rolling out now), and 5G( in pre-production phase now -commercial release around 2020).
..so GSM is 5 generations back.

in technological terms it is obsolete.

in terms of data carrying capacity,it's the railway equivalent of still using dial-up modems,when we now have fibre optic available.

So a box on a train will be replaced by a new box on a train.

This affects HST's how ?

 

[AlastairFraser]

What about PRM mods and then run some of them on the West Highland, Settle and Carlisle and Far North lines? Would be a good capacity upgrade and has the potential to take some of those coaches off the road. Convert most of the rest into parcel trains and a couple for preservation.

 

[Journeyman]

What about PRM mods and then run some of them on the West Highland, Settle and Carlisle and Far North lines? Would be a good capacity upgrade and has the potential to take some of those coaches off the road. Convert most of the rest into parcel trains and a couple for preservation.

They're not suitable for the West Highland because of portion working, and a speed limit of around 40mph along much of the route which will make them extremely inefficient fuel-wise. The Far North is insufficiently busy for anything longer than the current 2-car trains. No particular reason to use them on the S&C either. All of these are desperate scrabbling around to find a use for something old, knackered and obsolete.

Parcel trains? For what parcels, exactly?

 

[AndrewE]

Parcel trains? For what parcels, exactly?

These?
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ltiple-units-ordered-for-postal-services.html

Announcing the agreement with ROC on January 7, Porterbrook said increasing road congestion, a shortage of lorry drivers and the rapid growth in online shopping had led many shipping firms to explore the use of rail, but there was a lack of suitable trains.

although electro-diesel 769s would probably be more suitable (which is what the railway gazette atricle is about.

 

[AlastairFraser]

They're not suitable for the West Highland because of portion working, and a speed limit of around 40mph along much of the route which will make them extremely inefficient fuel-wise. The Far North is insufficiently busy for anything longer than the current 2-car trains. No particular reason to use them on the S&C either. All of these are desperate scrabbling around to find a use for something old, knackered and obsolete.

Parcel trains? For what parcels, exactly?

OK,they might not be suitable for the West Highland and Far North lines, but using HST's on the S and C would free up some 158's and accommodate many more tourists using the current timetable (changed for HST timings). Maybe a 3rd North-South line using the MML, Wakefield Line, Airedale Line, S and C and a fully reopened and doubled Borders Railway (with a small part of the WCML around Carlisle? More realistically, as parcel trains, they would be taking next-day delivery parcels to reduce congestion on the road network and provide a fast but environmentally friendly service. 769's are a strong contender in terms of their bi-mode capability but it's a waste of good-quality passenger trains that could be sent to alleviate the DMU shortage on partly electrified lines. Maybe Royal Mail might convert the Class 325 to Bi mode?

 

[yorksrob]

The first class carriages of the EMT HST's would make very good observation carriages with which to view the scenery of the S&C. You could have three standard ones for ordinary traffic, then two first class carriages which would be catchable for a small supplement.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The first class carriages of the EMT HST's would make very good observation carriages with which to view the scenery of the S&C. You could have three standard ones for ordinary traffic, then two first class carriages which would be catchable for a small supplement.

Tha's partly why I suggested them, it would be useful to send the 158's elsewhere at the same time to alleviate unit shortages.

 

[yorksrob]

Tha's partly why I suggested them, it would be useful to send the 158's elsewhere at the same time to alleviate unit shortages.

Indeed. A number of trains on the route are already 4 and 3 carriages, and a number that are 2 carriages need to be longer. They could build in some extra capacity and improve the tourist potential

 

[Iskra]

Indeed. A number of trains on the route are already 4 and 3 carriages, and a number that are 2 carriages need to be longer. They could build in some extra capacity and improve the tourist potential

I'd go a step further and also run Sheffeld-Nottingham/Lincoln as shortened HST's too. The units currently interwork anyway I believe.

I don't have much faith in the current amount of DMU's being sufficient post 2020 so we may as well start contingency planning now.

However, isn't it more likely Northern would use 37's again on the S&C (probably from DRS) as per 2004 if it came to it?

 

[yorksrob]

I'd go a step further and also run Sheffeld-Nottingham/Lincoln as shortened HST's too. The units currently interwork anyway I believe.

I don't have much faith in the current amount of DMU's being sufficient post 2020 so we may as well start contingency planning now.

However, isn't it more likely Northern would use 37's again on the S&C (probably from DRS) as per 2004 if it came to it?

I suspect the reliability issues on the Cumbrian Coast might put them off 37's.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'd go a step further and also run Sheffeld-Nottingham/Lincoln as shortened HST's too. The units currently interwork anyway I believe.

I don't have much faith in the current amount of DMU's being sufficient post 2020 so we may as well start contingency planning now.

However, isn't it more likely Northern would use 37's again on the S&C (probably from DRS) as per 2004 if it came to it?

Maybe they could be extensions of EMT regional semi-fast trains to/from Leicester/B'ham(this is the Sheffield-Lincoln I'm talking about.)

 

[cosmo]

Here's an idea, don't know if any TOCs would want to but if you ask me, there's a case for an express Newcastle-Carlisle coast to coast link across the Tyne Valley line. Could be there in just over an hour, compared to the 1 and a half it takes on a Northern semifast, and it's a good link from ECML to WCML.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Here's an idea, don't know if any TOCs would want to but if you ask me, there's a case for an express Newcastle-Carlisle coast to coast link across the Tyne Valley line. Could be there in just over an hour, compared to the 1 and a half it takes on a Northern semifast, and it's a good link from ECML to WCML.

Welcome to the forum. Your idea is a good shout but - 1.) Does the line have high enough line speeds to allow it? 2.) This could be a TPE service, and maybe some extensions to provide a semi-fast Carlisle to Barrow,depending on capacity across the WCML junctions at Carlisle. Do you know if this would be possible? I don't know how TPE would feel about operating HST's though.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Here's an idea, don't know if any TOCs would want to but if you ask me, there's a case for an express Newcastle-Carlisle coast to coast link across the Tyne Valley line. Could be there in just over an hour, compared to the 1 and a half it takes on a Northern semifast, and it's a good link from ECML to WCML.

Another thought is,given the distance from Northern or TPE depots, maintenance could be done at a reopened Ayr Townhead depot and stabling moved to the Caley to save some jobs.

 

[cosmo]

1.) Does the line have high enough line speeds to allow it? 2.) This could be a TPE service, and maybe some extensions to provide a semi-fast Carlisle to Barrow,depending on capacity across the WCML junctions at Carlisle. Do you know if this would be possible? I don't know how TPE would feel about operating HST's though.

Line speed is about 65-70mph IIRC, it's used as a diversionary route for HSTs when needed too. Could be TPE but as you say how'd they feel about HSTs? Maybe there's a possibility LNER could run it and keep a few HSTs. Northern, even, if they were short form. TPE could do something similar with a 68 set if they wanted to, really it would depend on if any TOC wanted/needed the HST sets.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Line speed is about 65-70mph IIRC, it's used as a diversionary route for HSTs when needed too. Could be TPE but as you say how'd they feel about HSTs? Maybe there's a possibility LNER could run it and keep a few HSTs. Northern, even, if they were short form. TPE could do something similar with a 68 set if they wanted to, really it would depend on if any TOC wanted/needed the HST sets.

It probably would only be viable with the cheap leasing of HST's though. Line speed seems high enough. LNER is an interesting idea but I don't know if they would want to run Newcastle shorts or through services,taking up limited capacity on the ECML. I think it would have to be TPE tbh. Northern could run them but only if they were used on all services.

 

[xotGD]

We used to have a one-stop (Hexham only) loco-hauled service between Newcastle and Carlisle back in the day. 1M04 / 1S15 ran from / to Edinburgh. You'd want a bi-mode for such a service today.

 

[tbtc]

A few thoughts:

1. The problems on the Harrogate line (putting 100mph Turbostars on a slow route where they struggle to get out of second gear) clearly hasn't taught people anything (given the ideas about putting badly accelerating 125mph trains on slow stopping routes with no fast sections)

2. The S&C is roughly a five hour round trip - for a bi-hourly service that means just three trains required. It's a rounding error, in the grand scheme of things, when people come up with solutions that involve putting spare 185s on it (though I agree that a 185 would be a lot better on the 75mph S&C than trying to get a 125mph HST to cope with at least fifteen intermediate stops).

3. If your idea to find a use for redundant stock involves creating new services then it's probably not going to happen

4. If your idea to find a use for redundant stock involves building (or re-building) lines to accommodate those new services then it's definitely not going to happen

5. I like the idea of a faster/better Newcastle - Carlisle service, but the line is getting their 142/156s replaced with "Connect" 158s and a second service per hour over the Pennines, so upgrades are happening anyway

6. My understanding was that the monocoque MK3s wouldn't be suited to fit wide doors into, hence being unsuitable for "Parcel" work. Whereas a 319/769 has nice wide doors at 1/3rd and 2/3rds so much more suitable for lugging large volumes of parcels into/out of.

7. Ten out of ten for imagination, mind

 

[yorksrob]

A few thoughts:

1. The problems on the Harrogate line (putting 100mph Turbostars on a slow route where they struggle to get out of second gear) clearly hasn't taught people anything (given the ideas about putting badly accelerating 125mph trains on slow stopping routes with no fast sections)

2. The S&C is roughly a five hour round trip - for a bi-hourly service that means just three trains required. It's a rounding error, in the grand scheme of things, when people come up with solutions that involve putting spare 185s on it (though I agree that a 185 would be a lot better on the 75mph S&C than trying to get a 125mph HST to cope with at least fifteen intermediate stops).

3. If your idea to find a use for redundant stock involves creating new services then it's probably not going to happen

4. If your idea to find a use for redundant stock involves building (or re-building) lines to accommodate those new services then it's definitely not going to happen

5. I like the idea of a faster/better Newcastle - Carlisle service, but the line is getting their 142/156s replaced with "Connect" 158s and a second service per hour over the Pennines, so upgrades are happening anyway

6. My understanding was that the monocoque MK3s wouldn't be suited to fit wide doors into, hence being unsuitable for "Parcel" work. Whereas a 319/769 has nice wide doors at 1/3rd and 2/3rds so much more suitable for lugging large volumes of parcels into/out of.

7. Ten out of ten for imagination, mind

With regard to the Settle & Carlisle line, how is it, even with all its stops, any less suited to HST operation than the long and winding route from Exeter to Cornwall, which also includes many stops ?

 

[The Ham]

With regard to the Settle & Carlisle line, how is it, even with all its stops, any less suited to HST operation than the long and winding route from Exeter to Cornwall, which also includes many stops ?

I would suggest that the reason that the HST's ran in Cornwall was because they were needed to run London to Exeter and BR/FGW/GWR just accepted that was how it was, even though they weren't ideal units.

 

[tbtc]

With regard to the Settle & Carlisle line, how is it, even with all its stops, any less suited to HST operation than the long and winding route from Exeter to Cornwall, which also includes many stops ?

I would suggest that the reason that the HST's ran in Cornwall was because they were needed to run London to Exeter and BR/FGW/GWR just accepted that was how it was, even though they weren't ideal units.

Exactly - a 125mph train makes sense on London - Penzance because it needs to run at high speed in the Thames Valley (and B&H), just like it makes sense for London to Aberdeen/ Inverness (due to the need to run fast as far as Edinburgh).

If the Crayonistas ever got their way, a HST would be a reasonable choice for a London - Leeds - Settle -Carlisle service (given the need to run fast on the MML/ECML sections).

But since we are only talking about the existing Leeds - Carlisle services (which take about two and a half hours to cover just over a hundred miles, with around fifteen intermediate stops and a 75mph maximum speed for most of the route), a HST doesn't seem like the most suitable traction.

Maybe there'll be a gap in the market for an Open Access service like the Fort William - Mallaig one, maybe someone can make the numbers work for that kind of thing, but the idea of running HSTs on the current diagrams (timed to permit 153s to operate) is... not sensible.

 

[yorksrob]

I would suggest that the reason that the HST's ran in Cornwall was because they were needed to run London to Exeter and BR/FGW/GWR just accepted that was how it was, even though they weren't ideal units.

But they were still suitable, to an extent for the slower services west of Plymouth.

Something reiterated by the fact that the shorter HST's will be running that route sometime into the future.

 

[yorksrob]

Exactly - a 125mph train makes sense on London - Penzance because it needs to run at high speed in the Thames Valley (and B&H), just like it makes sense for London to Aberdeen/ Inverness (due to the need to run fast as far as Edinburgh).

If the Crayonistas ever got their way, a HST would be a reasonable choice for a London - Leeds - Settle -Carlisle service (given the need to run fast on the MML/ECML sections).

But since we are only talking about the existing Leeds - Carlisle services (which take about two and a half hours to cover just over a hundred miles, with around fifteen intermediate stops and a 75mph maximum speed for most of the route), a HST doesn't seem like the most suitable traction.

Maybe there'll be a gap in the market for an Open Access service like the Fort William - Mallaig one, maybe someone can make the numbers work for that kind of thing, but the idea of running HSTs on the current diagrams (timed to permit 153s to operate) is... not sensible.

Well, obviously the "crayonistas" must have designed the short HST service in the West of England to Penzance....

Obviously not - I jest, just to illustrate the fact that tbtc's post makes no sense. The short HST's will be running in Cornwall, and they would be as suited to the S&C due to the long run up to Skipton.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well, obviously the "crayonistas" must have designed the short HST service in the West of England to Penzance....

Obviously not - I jest, just to illustrate the fact that tbtc's post makes no sense. The short HST's will be running in Cornwall, and they would be as suited to the S&C due to the long run up to Skipton.

Yes but the HSTs will eventually start in Cardiff, with the Severn Tunnel - Newton Abbott requiring 90/100mph stock...
The HSTs are a temporary stop gap, because of a lack of turbos heading west.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes but the HSTs will eventually start in Cardiff, with the Severn Tunnel - Newton Abbott requiring 90/100mph stock...
The HSTs are a temporary stop gap, because of a lack of turbos heading west.

That doesn't really alter the point that HST's represent potential greater capacity and an InterCity standard interior which would suit the service.

And unlike class 37's recently, they have a proven track record of operating on routes which are more winding and stop/start than the S&C.