Cautioned and awaiting letter. I cant see what ive done wrong

[afcgate]

Hi, Firstly bit of background,
i have travelled into Liverpool Street from Bishops stortford for over 10 years mainly using Annual season tickets and more recently monthly and daily due to more working from home time. I have probably paid in excess of £30k in fares to Greater Anglia and have never had a problem.

My issues are that on christmas eve my cousin came to stay purchasing an open ticket to bishops stortford. He used the first part of the journey but not the second as i took him home by car on the 27th Jan.
Knowing my travel pattern he said i may as well use his un-used ticket as it was valid 24th Dec - 24 Jan.

Yesterday i decided to use the ticket as i was due in late to work an i was staying at my mother in laws so would be using oyster to cheshunt on the way back.
I caught the 9.09am train from bishop stortord to Liverpool street. (I googled off peak on the greater anglia website and on the front page mentioned travel after 9, i have subsequently found out its arriving at liverpool street after 10 and i arrived at 9.53).
As the ticket only permitted travel to Tottenham Hale i used the trainline app and booked the 9.35 to 953 train (the one which is was on) at 9.21. So effectively in good faith covered my journey.

Arriving at Liverpool St, the barcode on the app didnt work (presumably due to not clicking in at Tott Hale?).
I must of chosen the wrong ticket inspector to ask but basically he didnt believe a word i said, accused me of using a ticket that had been previously used (which is impossible).

I was then caution by another inspector and passed onto a third who said it should of been on peak and still questioned the use of the ticket.
Being flustered and stressed i said i was in a rush for a meeting and he said just sign the form and he would complete what he had told me. (yes madness i know).

I have proof of purchase of both the open ticket and also the trainline app ticket.
Also upon checking the single fair from Stortford to Totenham hale or Liverpool street, it is the same price for on or off peak.

I can also provide bank statements showing regular purchases and also work sheets detailing working from home.

Working for an Insurer i am desperate to avoid a criminal conviction and would happily pay a fine for all this to go away.

Sorry for the long description, any help greatly appreciated.

 

[furlong]

Complicated. Lots of issues to disentangle here.

Did you tell this whole story to the inspectors, including the part about your cousin using the outward part of the ticket? Presumably that was a paper ticket.

 

[afcgate]

Hi, thanks for replying. No I did not, the first inspector was quite aggressive from the off, i didnt get annoyed by kept saying it was a valid open ticket and hadnt been used.
He also ask to see my online banking which i thought was too intrusive. I was totally flustered which probably gave him the impression that i was trying to pull a fast one.

 

[afcgate]

I also didnt have the proof of purchased at the time which my cousin has subsequently provided me with.

 

[furlong]

he didnt believe a word i said, accused me of using a ticket that had been previously used (which is impossible).

The train company would have to prove that, and it could be difficult and time-consuming for it to do so (searching CCTV, correlating with ticket barrier records etc.), so don't be surprised if an inspector applies pressure to try to obtain an admission.

 

[afcgate]

Sorry yes it was a paper ticket

 

[furlong]

I also didnt have the proof of purchased at the time which my cousin has subsequently provided me with.

Well tickets are "not transferrable". Difficult for the train companies to enforce in practice, and there could be some debate about the extent to which it can be enforced in law in some particular cases.

 

[furlong]

If they haven't raised this as a problem, it would be better not to give them an open goal, but there are a couple of grey areas:
Is a return ticket two separate Tickets (because the out and return portions are each separate physical records that entitle a passenger to make a journey)?
Was the return portion bought on behalf of you? (No, because that was not the plan at the time of purchase.)

5. Tickets are not transferable
5.1. A Ticket may only be used by the person who bought that Ticket or on whose behalf that Ticket was bought unless specifically allowed by the terms and conditions applying to that Ticket. A Ticket may not be resold to anyone else.
...
“Ticket” means any physical or electronic document or record which entitles a passenger to make a journey on the National Rail Network between the stations or within the zones indicated by one or more of the Train Companies.

 

[afcgate]

Thanks, i had no idea they were not transferrable as nothing noted on the ticket. Yes there were 2 paper tickets 1 for the journey to Bishops Stortford and 1 for the journey home that he gave to me. Would imagine this come up quite allot. Being a genuine mistake and a first offence wouldnt common sense be just a fine?
I would probably need to get some legal representation as losing my job would obviously be a life changing event for something like this.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I suspect the OP failed to activate the e ticket?

They say the "barcode didn't work" and they speculate about this being because they didn't " tap in" have they simply not activated it?

We are increasingly seeing customers having purchased various forms of e tickets and then failing to read the instructions as to what to do with them.

 

[afcgate]

Hi Gareth, Thanks yes i defo activated it. They didnt question this part of the journey.

 

[furlong]

But at this point, you think they are only asserting that they suspect the paper ticket had already been used, but have no evidence to support that (and so would be unable to prove it)?
Did the ticket go through a ticket barrier at Stortford that morning?
Did the inspector retain the paper ticket? (Presumably, yes?)
Did the inspector retain details of the electronic ticket?

 

[afcgate]

Hi, they were saying about the ticket used twice and then saying it was offpeak as well.
At bishops stortford it did actually reject and i showed it to the inspector and he let me through.
Yes he did retain the ticket and said i couldnt have it back.
The inspector didnt retain details of the E ticket but i have these saved with times, paypal details etc.

 

[furlong]

Thanks, i had no idea they were not transferrable as nothing noted on the ticket.

Which is another grey area regarding how enforceable that term is, if the purchaser's attention is not drawn at the time of purchase to contractual terms that are important to the purchaser. (Was it purchased at ticket office, ticket machine or online?) It's now 2019 and yet the vast majority of ticket machines still do not offer to display the Conditions of Travel under which tickets are issued.

 

[afcgate]

Which is another grey area regarding how enforceable that term is, if the purchaser's attention is not drawn at the time of purchase to contractual terms that are important to the purchaser. (Was it purchased at ticket office, ticket machine or online?) It's now 2019 and yet the vast majority of ticket machines still do not offer to display the Conditions of Travel under which tickets are issued.

Yes good point, it was a ticket machine at tottenham hale

 

[furlong]

Hi, they were saying about the ticket used twice and then saying it was offpeak as well.
At bishops stortford it did actually reject and i showed it to the inspector and he let me through.
Yes he did retain the ticket and said i couldnt have it back.
The inspector didnt retain details of the E ticket but i have these saved with times, paypal details etc.

OK, so if they read the magnetic stripe it will tell them if it had been put through a ticket gate previously (and they could then look at the corresponding CCTV to get an image of the person who used it) - that would give them evidence they could use against you. If as you assert, the only barrier you put it through was the one that morning, then this will not give them the evidence they are hoping to find.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hi Gareth, Thanks yes i defo activated it. They didnt question this part of the journey.

If it had been activated but for whatever reason failed to open up the barriers then you should have shown the activated barcode on your phone to one of the barrier staff and been let through. How did you end up showing them a ticket for a different journey?

 

[afcgate]

Yes, i agree, I did and the lady on the gate just said speak to the other inspector and he just started asking where did my journey start, then took me to one side.

 

[furlong]

So, moving on to the paper ticket itself, what price was it? Presumably it was labelled Off-Peak return any permitted?

 

[afcgate]

it was £24.80 yes off peak valid 24th Dec to 23rd or 24th Jan. A peak fair from Bishops Stortford to Liverpool street single is £17.10. The E Ticket i bought was £4.90 so effectively 10p saving!

 

[afcgate]

it was £24.80 yes off peak valid 24th Dec to 23rd or 24th Jan. A peak fair from Bishops Stortford to Liverpool street single is £17.10. The E Ticket i bought was £4.90 so effectively 10p saving!

Sorry no actually more expensive!

 

[furlong]

Before we complete this, I'll just quickly add that if you had an off-peak ticket at a time when you should have had a peak ticket, then you are supposed to be charged the excess:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:
9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
...
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

 

[afcgate]

Before we complete this, I'll just quickly add that if you had an off-peak ticket at a time when you should have had a peak ticket, then you are supposed to be charged the excess:

Yes seems common sense

 

[Hadders]

As I understand it you were using the return portion of an Off Peak Return from Tottenham Hale to Bishops Stortford and a ticket purchased via the Trainline app from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street.

The TOM-BIS ticket has restriction code 9A which is not allowed on trains timed to arrive at Liverpool Street before 10:00. Unfortunately the 09:09 trains from Bishops Stortford is scheduled to arrive at Liverpool Street before 10:00 so this ticket was not valid for travel on that train. Condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is relevant here:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:

9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2. you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3. you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

It's not entirely clear what ticket you purchased between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street but I assume it was an Anytime Single costing £4.90. Assuming this ticket had been activated then I don't see how Greater Anglia can take any action against you in respect of this ticket.

 

[afcgate]

As I understand it you were using the return portion of an Off Peak Return from Tottenham Hale to Bishops Stortford and a ticket purchased via the Trainline app from Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street.

The TOM-BIS ticket has restriction code 9A which is not allowed on trains timed to arrive at Liverpool Street before 10:00. Unfortunately the 09:09 trains from Bishops Stortford is scheduled to arrive at Liverpool Street before 10:00 so this ticket was not valid for travel on that train. Condition 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage is relevant here:



It's not entirely clear what ticket you purchased between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street but I assume it was an Anytime Single costing £4.90. Assuming this ticket had been activated then I don't see how Greater Anglia can take any action against you in respect of this ticket.

Thanks, Yes agree, will wait to hear what they say but dont believe that portion of the journey and payment is in question.

 

[185]

Observed two TOCs recently. One was penalty faring people and charging anything from forty to seventy quid. The other was completing TIRs based on the activation time at the bottom of the ticket. Good that it's being tackled but would like to see both consistency between companies and a clear warning made compulsory on all apps.

 

[furlong]

The restriction is currently http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9a :

Not valid on trains timed to arrive:

• Tottenham Hale before 09:50;

That would probably be why the barrier did not open at the start of your journey. However, you might be able to argue you were given permission to use the ticket on this train if the assistant saw that that barrier hadn't opened, looked at your ticket, then allowed you to travel using it on the next train. (They don't like that sort of argument though.)

 

[afcgate]

I know you should always go onto the website but when using google on a phone the attached info is quite misleading

 

[afcgate]

The restriction is currently http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/9a :



That would probably be why the barrier did not open at the start of your journey. However, you might be able to argue you were given permission to use the ticket on this train if the assistant saw that that barrier hadn't opened, looked at your ticket, then allowed you to travel using it on the next train. (They don't like that sort of argument though.)

yes, agreed thanks

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which is another grey area regarding how enforceable that term is, if the purchaser's attention is not drawn at the time of purchase to contractual terms that are important to the purchaser. (Was it purchased at ticket office, ticket machine or online?) It's now 2019 and yet the vast majority of ticket machines still do not offer to display the Conditions of Travel under which tickets are issued.

However the OP didn't purchase the ticket nor was it purchased for him so that rather negates "the TVM didn't tell me" line.