Why weren’t 379s chosen for Heathrow?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

This really confuses me.

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

So why didn’t Great Western Railway choose to take the thirty 379s for Heathrow Express instead of taking some of the 387s? The 379s are currently destined for the sidings and using these would mean they wouldn’t have a shortage of 387s for the stopping services, meaning the rather makeshift looking 769s would not have to be introduced. They’re so similar to 387s too, they wouldn’t be hard to maintain.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Already trained staff, 110mph and Crossrail was meant to be removing the shortage.

 

[superalbs]

I think it would be much better, and could lessen GWR's need for 769s.

Btw, I would recommend this went in the Speculative Ideas section, but I am unsure whether you have the power to move it now.

 

[43096]

This really confuses me.

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

So why didn’t Great Western Railway choose to take the thirty 379s for Heathrow Express instead of taking some of the 387s? The 379s are currently destined for the sidings and using these would mean they wouldn’t have a shortage of 387s for the stopping services, meaning the rather makeshift looking 769s would not have to be introduced. They’re so similar to 387s too, they wouldn’t be hard to maintain.

Because GWR have too many 387s in the longer term, once Crossrail takes over the majority of the stopping service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 379 and 387 fleets have different owners (ROSCOs), and GWR only needs 14 units for Heathrow Express and will modify their 387s accordingly.
The 379s would not be guaranteed to be available from GA in time anyway.
With Crossrail delays it remains to be seen how the 345s are rolled out west of Paddington to free up the 387s.
The 379s will have to take their chances in the market when they come off-lease.

 

[AndyW33]

This really confuses me.

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

So why didn’t Great Western Railway choose to take the thirty 379s for Heathrow Express instead of taking some of the 387s? The 379s are currently destined for the sidings and using these would mean they wouldn’t have a shortage of 387s for the stopping services, meaning the rather makeshift looking 769s would not have to be introduced. They’re so similar to 387s too, they wouldn’t be hard to maintain.

The 379s would be really useful for the partly unelectrified routes the 769s are intended for, wouldn't they! Had the DfT not cancelled part of the GW electrification programme, the 379s might have found a role, as it is, the appearance of 387s on Heathrow services is a stopgap, these are meant to be operated by Crossrail, not GW, using Crossrail's own units. There will be ample 387s once Crossrail operates its full timetable.

 

[JN114]

the appearance of 387s on Heathrow services is a stopgap, these are meant to be operated by Crossrail, not GW, using Crossrail's own units.

Erm, no.

Heathrow Express services were never meant to be operated by crossrail.

Crossrail are now running their own services to Heathrow (former connect services) with Rolling stock they lease from Heathrow Airport.

387s on Heathrow Express services is enabled by Crossrail, but it isn’t because of Crossrail.

 

[DanNCL]

Put simply the reason is cost. GWR already have the 387s so there's no extra leasing costs for them. IIRC the 387s are getting some interior modifications before being used on the Heathrow Express, so they shouldn't be operating it with the current interior.

 

[rebmcr]

Do 379s even have ERTMS capability? That's a hard requirement.

Erm, no.

Heathrow Express services were never meant to be operated by crossrail

I think that depends how far in the future one looks, and whether one takes the official policy, or reads between the lines. Certainly the 387 fleet is intended to run services never intended to be Crossrail, at least for the next two years...

 

[MatthewRead]

This really confuses me.

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

So why didn’t Great Western Railway choose to take the thirty 379s for Heathrow Express instead of taking some of the 387s? The 379s are currently destined for the sidings and using these would mean they wouldn’t have a shortage of 387s for the stopping services, meaning the rather makeshift looking 769s would not have to be introduced. They’re so similar to 387s too, they wouldn’t be hard to maintain.

Not necessarily 379's might end up on the Midland Main line working services to Corby.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not necessarily 379's might end up on the Midland Main line working services to Corby.

That’s a huge fantasy.

 

[43074]

That’s a huge fantasy.

Why? They come off lease by August 2020 and the Corby electric timetable is supposed to start in December 2020, they would be the logical option in many ways (although clearly it depends what options bidders for the new franchise come up with).

 

[pdeaves]

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

Interiors are easily changeable. The units that will be dedicated to HEx services will have altered interiors to make them suitable for HEx work.

 

[hexagon789]

This really confuses me.

379s and 387s are practically the same, except that 379s have a more premium interior.

So why didn’t Great Western Railway choose to take the thirty 379s for Heathrow Express instead of taking some of the 387s? The 379s are currently destined for the sidings and using these would mean they wouldn’t have a shortage of 387s for the stopping services, meaning the rather makeshift looking 769s would not have to be introduced. They’re so similar to 387s too, they wouldn’t be hard to maintain.

I would say the primary reasons are:

Common fleet - maintainance and traction knowledge.

110mph running, 379s are 100mph IIRC though it is possible they could be uprated with minimal work.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Interiors are easily changeable. The units that will be dedicated to HEx services will have altered interiors to make them suitable for HEx work.

Let’s face it though, the Heathrow Express sets aren’t going to lose the ironing board seats are they?

 

[bb21]

Let’s face it though, the Heathrow Express sets aren’t going to lose the ironing board seats are they?

You've confused me. Why not?

 

[Starmill]

You've confused me. Why not?

Are they really going to replace the entire interior? The reported changes on here have suggested some minor tweaks and the addition of First Class.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are they really going to replace the entire interior? The reported changes on here have suggested some minor tweaks and the addition of First Class.

And this addition of first class will almost DEFINITELY be the same seat. Almost definitely. Think Gatwick Express, it’ll be just like that. (Another huge downgrade)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they really going to replace the entire interior? The reported changes on here have suggested some minor tweaks and the addition of First Class.

Given GatEx, I'd expect "the addition of First Class" to mean "the addition of antimacassars to a few rows of seats", personally.

 

[edwin_m]

Heathrow Express has always been upmarket compared with the other airport shuttles, mainly because Heathrow is mostly full-service airlines where Gatwick and Stansted are dominated by no-frills. The last refurbishment of the 332s made them even more luxurious.

Having a bog-standard interior removes what will be for most people the only reason to choose HEx over Crossrail, given that the latter will cancel out the journey time benefit for those continuing east of Paddington.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having a bog-standard interior removes what will be for most people the only reason to choose HEx over Crossrail, given that the latter will cancel out the journey time benefit for those continuing east of Paddington.

Then HEx can be left to die, and the paths and EMUs used for something useful, e.g. 4tph non-stop 12-car EMU Paddington to Reading, then the commuters can finally be banned from the 800s and the overcrowding issue finally end.

 

[edwin_m]

Then HEx can be left to die, and the paths and EMUs used for something useful, e.g. 4tph non-stop 12-car EMU Paddington to Reading, then the commuters can finally be banned from the 800s and the overcrowding issue finally end.

Well yes, I think something like that will happen eventually, but the people specifying HEx will want a different outcome!

 

[Starmill]

Then HEx can be left to die, and the paths and EMUs used for something useful, e.g. 4tph non-stop 12-car EMU Paddington to Reading, then the commuters can finally be banned from the 800s and the overcrowding issue finally end.

Haven't they just signed a 10 year contract to operate Heathrow Express?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't they just signed a 10 year contract to operate Heathrow Express?

That's quite interesting given that their franchise agreement is only until 2020!

Edit: it seems so, unusually the contract also binds any future franchise holder:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/gwr-to-manage-heathrow-express-service.html

That said, 10 years is probably not a terrible period for usage to drop off and for it to be decided not to bother renewing.

 

[ainsworth74]

Haven't they just signed a 10 year contract to operate Heathrow Express?

They have but if it starts to haemorrhage money how long will it be before Heathrow or GWR decide to throw in the towel and terminate the contract?

One can only hope that this move does finish off HEx so we can use the paths for something more useful.

 

[cactustwirly]

Put simply the reason is cost. GWR already have the 387s so there's no extra leasing costs for them. IIRC the 387s are getting some interior modifications before being used on the Heathrow Express, so they shouldn't be operating it with the current interior.

Erm no! There isn't the depot capacity at Reading for extra 379s and there will be a surplus of 387s once Crossrail operates to Reading.

 

[cactustwirly]

They have but if it starts to haemorrhage money how long will it be before Heathrow or GWR decide to throw in the towel and terminate the contract?

One can only hope that this move does finish off HEx so we can use the paths for something more useful.

But it won't haemorrhage money, even after Crossrail!
Heathrow has a lot of business travellers and rich tourists from China & America etc, who'll prefer to use HEx.

I'm not sure what you'd replace HEx with, as the paths aren't available to Reading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure what you'd replace HEx with, as the paths aren't available to Reading.

Rejig things so that they are?

What joins the GWML fast lines between Heathrow Junction and Reading which would cause them not to be available?

 

[edwin_m]

Erm no! There isn't the depot capacity at Reading for extra 379s and there will be a surplus of 387s once Crossrail operates to Reading.

Presumably the spare 387s could have been replaced by 379s if that was thought to be the best course of action. But there are several reasons why it obviously isn't:

• 387s already on lease, so someone is paying for them whether used or not.
• 379s not yet released from Stansted, release date presumably depends on the smooth introduction of FLIRTs, but it's critical to replace the 332s so their depot can close and make way for HS2.
• No good reason to have Reading depot dealing with two different classes, even if they are very similar.
• No good reason to re-certify the 379s for 100mph.

What joins the GWML fast lines between Heathrow Junction and Reading which would cause them not to be available?

I think the issue is that when a 100mph HEx leaves the GWML at Heathrow Junction there is a 125mph HST/IET close behind it. If it carried on to Reading it would delay that following train (and similarly in the opposite direction). Replacing the 332 by a 110mph 387 would help a bit, but probably not enough to create a path all the way. This logic suggests there might be Reading paths available if more 125mph units can be used.

 

[Starmill]

They have but if it starts to haemorrhage money how long will it be before Heathrow or GWR decide to throw in the towel and terminate the contract?

Oh no no absolutely. I completely agree. But given the contract was signed just a matter of months ago the Airport management must be confident in their financials in the short term at the very least, so I was pointing out it's much more a case of 'wait and see' than tje foregone conclusion many seem to jump to when Heathrow Express is brought up.