Thameslink Programme, South Central & South Eastern area fleet cascades etc

[asylumxl]

All I ever seem to see is them going in the opposite direction, usually half-empty whilst I get a good view of the crotch of the passenger from Harpenden who is standing over me reading his FT and drinking his £5 cup of coffee tutting that he hasn't got a seat ..... again.

AMEN!

Best quote ever on RailUK imo.

 

[westcoaster]

Nice to see that FCC considers it vital that passengers travelling the massive distance between St Pancras and West Hampstead have the benefit of new air-conditioned trains.
[/. QUOTE]

well to be honest you could have got on the 377 to flitwick, as at the moment some are running extra all stations to bedford, but im sure you want a fast service, so you choose to get on a crusty 319/3 and not the uber 377.

 

[The Box Photter]

I pay £4,060 per year to get home in the fastest way possible, not to stop at every wayside halt and signal post between London & Bedford.

Ask passengers why they cram onto the non-stopping trains to & from St Albans why they don't wait for a "stopper" where they've a better chance of a seat and you'll get a similar response.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I pay £4,060 per year to get home in the fastest way possible, not to stop at every wayside halt and signal post between London & Bedford.

Ask passengers why they cram onto the non-stopping trains to & from St Albans why they don't wait for a "stopper" where they've a better chance of a seat and you'll get a similar response.

So you want a fast train and you want it to be a new train? Quite simply these trains are doing extra all stopping because they get a crapper service (2 departures 15mins apart compared to a 30mins interval Bedford services get) and the fact they get no alternate routes. If you really want the fastest service use EMT and go back one station or use a 319. If you want a new train use a stopper then (which is only temporary anyway).

Most 377's (the other being the ones starting from Southeastern destinations) start from bedford south in the peak and take people home to Bedford in the evening.


As the original subject

Latest update for you all

Timetable change on sunday is only a 97 diagram change. The full KO0 99 diagram service is now expect to start 4/1/10.

377501 - Now expected 'around' 14th december

377503 - Paint match problems now mean FCC expect it in mid Jan

377522 - Is now ready for FCC use but stabled at Selhurst due to lack of stabling space.

377523 - Suffering wheel flats during testing, 'likely' to be at Bedford 11/12.

Final finishing of the KO0 bridge at Farringon now expected in Jan 2010.

Note all Gillingham services become Rochester from monday.

 

[The Box Photter]

So you want a fast train and you want it to be a new train? Quite simply these trains are doing extra all stopping because they get a crapper service (2 departures 15mins apart compared to a 30mins interval Bedford services get) and the fact they get no alternate routes. If you really want the fastest service use EMT and go back one station or use a 319. If you want a new train use a stopper then (which is only temporary anyway).

Most 377's (the other being the ones starting from Southeastern destinations) start from bedford south in the peak and take people home to Bedford in the evening.


As the original subject

Latest update for you all

Timetable change on sunday is only a 97 diagram change. The full KO0 99 diagram service is now expect to start 4/1/10.

377501 - Now expected 'around' 14th december

377503 - Paint match problems now mean FCC expect it in mid Jan

377522 - Is now ready for FCC use but stabled at Selhurst due to lack of stabling space.

377523 - Suffering wheel flats during testing, 'likely' to be at Bedford 11/12.

Final finishing of the KO0 bridge at Farringon now expected in Jan 2010.

Note all Gillingham services become Rochester from monday.

To answer your first point - Yes. We were promised new trains by FCC when it took over the franchise and then by Lady Elaine Holt (where is she now?).

To respond to your second point - Apart from Elstree & Radlett passengers, all the other "stopper" stations are either served by LU or LU plus a bus ride. Anyone with a modicum of sense and an Oyster Card can get from Central London to Hendon or Cricklewood or Mill Hill without using FCC.

I, on the other hand am a captive of FCC because no-one else provides me with a service. I do not fare-dodge so I can't (legally) get on an EMT to Bedford & then come back one stop. Even if I did the timetables are so poorly integrated I'd probably have to wait 30 mins at Bedford for a 319 back, plus the 10 mins or so to Flitwick, thus it wouldn't really be much quicker.

 

[asylumxl]

Indeed. I take the Brighton service into London and then have to wait about 20 minutes for a Sutton or Sevenoak service to Elephant and Castle.

I'm lucky, I have the option of EMT, infrequent as it is.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

To answer your first point - Yes. We were promised new trains by FCC when it took over the franchise and then by Lady Elaine Holt (where is she now?).

To respond to your second point - Apart from Elstree & Radlett passengers, all the other "stopper" stations are either served by LU or LU plus a bus ride. Anyone with a modicum of sense and an Oyster Card can get from Central London to Hendon or Cricklewood or Mill Hill without using FCC.

I, on the other hand am a captive of FCC because no-one else provides me with a service. I do not fare-dodge so I can't (legally) get on an EMT to Bedford & then come back one stop. Even if I did the timetables are so poorly integrated I'd probably have to wait 30 mins at Bedford for a 319 back, plus the 10 mins or so to Flitwick, thus it wouldn't really be much quicker.

As I wasn't there when FCC took over Im not sure what she promised but Im not going to be every train is going to be a 377 (and Im sure if she was still around she would stay something about new trains being the NXEMU's rather then the 377's). Even when (and it feels like if) FCC get 23x 377/5 you may still be riding around in a 319 back and forth to and from work all week. It will be worse when the December 2011 timetable comes and the same fleet starts doing 12 car services. You'll have less 377 departures even if they are longer.

I like the 'modicum of sense' lately we've had alot of complaints that there is no Kentish Town trains in peak! I have tried to point out lately that actually LUL services are alwasy there better bet but still more ask the same question. The point I was trying to make is some have spent £1,000's (likely on a Oyster travelcard) and they want the faster possible service too. You can't please everyone and I think you'd rather have a 319, crap as it may be, then a 377 all stations. Besides it seems this is likely to all be over soon anyway. Just hope you don't have to travel in between xmas and new year.

As for going to Bedford and back, Im sure that would be allowed currently but as you stay connection times are likely to be nasty.

 

[jon0844]

@The Box Photter

The 319s aren't crap though - especially when refreshed. They get you from A to B and they're a pretty reliable train overall.

Of course, you'd rather be on a 377 - but these are a temporary solution and ultimately will be passed back to Southern in the future.

If FCC had been given trains from elsewhere that were old, would you be so bothered about which train you got?

Elaine Holt talked about getting more trains, meaning getting ALL of the 319s handed over from Southern. This she did - but not overnight (they were still being used by Southern).

FCC will probably be involved in the ordering of the brand new fleet of trains to go on both TL and GN, although they may not be around to actually run them.

The DfT will organise this and the Government may well cut the project back anyway, to save money (mind you, it won't be the current Government by then - that's for sure!).

 

[Aictos]

Talking of extra trains, The Thameslink passengers have brand new Class 377s even if they are only on loan until the NXEMUs enter service, compared that with the Class 321s which the Great Northern passengers got for extra seats then tell me which route got the better deal!

Elaine did a good job as she got all the 319s working on Thameslink services, okay it wouldn't happen over night but it has happened.

 

[asylumxl]

While i feel TL has a better deal than GN, they both have a pretty crap deal compared to say London Midland (350s), SouthEastern (465s,375s).

Ive not checked previously but last time I checked, FCC was more expensive per mile on peak.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Interesting following on from what you guys have been talking about here's a huge update for you all with a decent timeline that how it affects FCC, Southern and Southeastern.

April 2010
Farringdon - Blackfriars comes under Victoria signalling control
Lines between Kentish Town and Blackfriars renamed Thameslink south/north lines

October/December 2010
Track slew at Blackfriars during the 8 week run through (trains run but station closed down)

April 2011
‘Crossing’ north of St Pancras (Low Level) to allow northbound working from both platforms

Easter 2011
Signalling works commissioned between Kentish Town and Farringdon*
(* this is the new ‘High Capacity conventional signalling with signals every 100m so 20 TPH can run. New automatic signalling will be overlaid to this.)

November 2011
Signalling commissioned between Farringdon and City*

December 2011
Bedford platform extensions completed
First 12 car service (including ‘additional 377 Electrostar's’ – 3x 377/2 from Southern)
16TPH in the Core during peak

Spring 2012
Weekend and Core blocks completed

March 2012
Blackfriars Bays come into use
Signalling commissioned between City and Loughborough Junction*

October 2012
FCC services diverted from London Bridge (‘likely’ to be diverted via Crystal Palace)
‘Charing Cross services run through’

June 2013
New 12 car NXEMU in service between Bedford and Brighton

December 2013
New FCC/Southeastern 8 car trains Outer Kent – Bedford (currently Medway/Ashford services)
New Southeastern 12 car trains for Tunbridge Wells – Charing Cross (NXEMU’s)

2014
Southern new trains for London Bridge – Sussex, 12 car NXEMUs

May 2014
London Bridge: Cannon St services run through and Charing Cross services call again

June 2014
FCC new 12 car trains Peterborough – Kings Cross

Late 2014
New trains for FCC/Southeastern for Bedford/Luton/St Albans/Sevenoaks and Brighton – 8 car services
8/12 car trains for Cambridge/Peterborough/Royston/Kings Cross

2015
Southeastern New trains for Maidstone – Victoria (8 car)
Southern new trains for Sussex – Victoria (8 car)

December 2015
24TPH in the Core for peak
FCC serves London Bridge
GN and TL link opened

 

[asylumxl]

Blackfriars bays come into use? What do you mean by that?

I thought they were being totally got rid of.

 

[jon0844]

It will be good to refer back to this over the years and see what actually happened on time!

If it all does happen by December 2015, then the project will only be 15 (well 16 almost) years late!

Still, one good thing about these things is that even if it is that late, people won't care once it HAS happened.

 

[A60K]

Blackfriars bays come into use? What do you mean by that?

I thought they were being totally got rid of.

The old bays have been closed and removed because they're on the wrong (east) side of the through lines for the trains that will use them in future. Two new bays will open on the other (west) side of the through lines.

 

[Pumbaa]

While i feel TL has a better deal than GN, they both have a pretty crap deal compared to say London Midland (350s), SouthEastern (465s,375s).

You may be right there! You can't really compare it to SE though, because the majority of their old stock was slam-door. You'd be better off comparing to the WA and GE. LM is the only one who's had a huge benefit, with all but 7 of their trains being replaced by brand new ones!

 

[asylumxl]

Checking fares today from Tring to Euston and Luton to St Pancras confirmed my previous findings in that per mile Thameslink is significantly more expensive than other networks.

 

[Pumbaa]

A more accurate comparison would be Hemel and Harpenden - both of equal mileage, and both not a city!

Harpenden > St Pancras - £11.40 (24.51)
Hemel > Euston - £11.00 (24.49)

Both Anytime singles. Not that different - by reckoning Hemel > Euston is 44.9p per mile, Harpenden > St Pancras is 46.5p per mile.

 

[The Box Photter]

@The Box Photter

The 319s aren't crap though - especially when refreshed. They get you from A to B and they're a pretty reliable train overall.

Of course, you'd rather be on a 377 - but these are a temporary solution and ultimately will be passed back to Southern in the future.

If FCC had been given trains from elsewhere that were old, would you be so bothered about which train you got?

Elaine Holt talked about getting more trains, meaning getting ALL of the 319s handed over from Southern. This she did - but not overnight (they were still being used by Southern).

FCC will probably be involved in the ordering of the brand new fleet of trains to go on both TL and GN, although they may not be around to actually run them.

The DfT will organise this and the Government may well cut the project back anyway, to save money (mind you, it won't be the current Government by then - that's for sure!).

I'll swap my Class 319s for your 365s in an instant. Comfortable seats that line up with the windows and forced air ventilation in the summer. You're welcome to the 319s with seats that are too low, no ventilation in the summer and over-fierce hearing in the winter. I seem to remember that the 365s can be converted to dual-voltage operation, how about swapsies?

I agree that a 319 is better than no train at all, but seeing the 377s all shiny & new ALWAYS going in the opposite direction tends to warm the bladder a little. The train I returned home on this evening proudly displayed that it was "Built by BREL York" and Eddie Pond's artwork dated 1987 was still adorning the ends of the carriages (319010 to be precise).

The only contemporary units to the 319s left running in the South East are the 321s and most of these have had two refurbishments since they were introduced. The 365s are about to be refurbished again, yet we are still travelling on trains in Thameslink livery with interiors built in 1987.

It was always a convenient excuse that "the only trains allowed though Snow Hill Tunnel are class 319s", now apparently its fine to run 377s through. If that's possible, why weren't FCC required to fund and provide new trains as part of the original franchise?

After refreshment the 319s are adequate at best and reliability has improved, but as a comfortable passenger environment trying to deal with commuters, airline passengers and leisure travellers, they don't come up to scratch. If the Gubberment and eco-mentalists want commuters to leave their cars at home and use the train, they've got to come up with something better than a 20-year old train painted purple with lino on the floor.

 

[Class377]

Only minor, but 317s can run through too can't they? Not much better. I understan that it's bad with the 377 timings, but I guess that they come out of Bedford in the morning and do pre-peak down to STP/Brighton, then back up to Bedford in the rush.

 

[MCR247]

Only minor, but 317s can run through too can't they? Not much better. I understan that it's bad with the 377 timings, but I guess that they come out of Bedford in the morning and do pre-peak down to STP/Brighton, then back up to Bedford in the rush.

317s are AC only

 

[Aictos]

IIt was always a convenient excuse that "the only trains allowed though Snow Hill Tunnel are class 319s", now apparently its fine to run 377s through. If that's possible, why weren't FCC required to fund and provide new trains as part of the original franchise?

While I don't tend to agree with the rest of your posts on this subject, I do however agree with your point on why FCC was not required to fund and provide new trains as part of the original franchise?

I mean a order of 140 EMUs based on either the 4 car Electrostar Class 377 design, 4 car Desiro Class 350 design or a mix of 4 and 5 car Desiro Class 350 design would have been enough to displace the 319s to another TOC but where at the moment?

The order would be split though between the two routes with the Thameslink gaining the majority of the units (109 EMUs) to displace the 319s with the Great Northern gaining the rest (31 EMUs) to displace the 317s and lose the reason to have 321s.

Everyone is happy,

I think however that the main reason for the 319s still being with the Thameslink route is due to two reasons, 1.) Their replacements aka the NXEMUs don't enter service until 2012 and 2.) even if the 319s did get replaced, where could they be cascaded to?

Only minor, but 317s can run through too can't they? Not much better. I understan that it's bad with the 377 timings, but I guess that they come out of Bedford in the morning and do pre-peak down to STP/Brighton, then back up to Bedford in the rush.

I love to see a 317 make it to Brighton, Main reason being they are a AC only EMU and can only run between Bedford and Farringdon (City Thameslink when the OHL gets finished).

A 317 I think can be run with a 319 but only as a ECS, I'm sure the many drivers here can confirm that.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Don't forget that the 317 can only make it into platform 2 at City and not platform 1 (plt 1 OHLE is currently isolated).

 

[Aictos]

Don't forget that the 317 can only make it into platform 2 at City and not platform 1 (plt 1 OHLE is currently isolated).

I wasn't sure on the status of the OHL there which is why I posted "When the OHL gets finished).

Any reason why the OHL for Platform 1 is isolated?

 

[mackenzie_blu]

I wasn't sure on the status of the OHL there which is why I posted "When the OHL gets finished).

Any reason why the OHL for Platform 1 is isolated?

Until the earthing works are finished in june!

I'll swap my Class 319s for your 365s in an instant. Comfortable seats that line up with the windows and forced air ventilation in the summer. You're welcome to the 319s with seats that are too low, no ventilation in the summer and over-fierce hearing in the winter. I seem to remember that the 365s can be converted to dual-voltage operation, how about swapsies?

I agree that a 319 is better than no train at all, but seeing the 377s all shiny & new ALWAYS going in the opposite direction tends to warm the bladder a little. The train I returned home on this evening proudly displayed that it was "Built by BREL York" and Eddie Pond's artwork dated 1987 was still adorning the ends of the carriages (319010 to be precise).

The only contemporary units to the 319s left running in the South East are the 321s and most of these have had two refurbishments since they were introduced. The 365s are about to be refurbished again, yet we are still travelling on trains in Thameslink livery with interiors built in 1987.

It was always a convenient excuse that "the only trains allowed though Snow Hill Tunnel are class 319s", now apparently its fine to run 377s through. If that's possible, why weren't FCC required to fund and provide new trains as part of the original franchise?

After refreshment the 319s are adequate at best and reliability has improved, but as a comfortable passenger environment trying to deal with commuters, airline passengers and leisure travellers, they don't come up to scratch. If the Gubberment and eco-mentalists want commuters to leave their cars at home and use the train, they've got to come up with something better than a 20-year old train painted purple with lino on the floor.

Its not an excuse as FCC doesn't clear trains for the line, thats Network Rail's job. Note the Electrostars were tested long before they came into service (well the 377/2's were) and are build to fit in Snowhill. Not the 465/466 are fully cleared for Smithfields (only allowed on the northbound lines into Smithfield).

You miss the fact SET have 30 DV 375's that are cleared for Snowhill tho would require a guard (still think a St Albans service could be run by Southeastern staff in 375's, not like they aren't running part of the services now).

Also some of the 365 are already DV, some used to run on Southeastern on the DC so they are ok to run. Problem is likely silmar to why the 375 aren't able to run. No DOO for them.

If the 377's are currently not going where you want them then the new timetable will only serve to increase this feeling. You may have to cope with your crap 319s till the NXEMUs arrive.

Oh for the record the final Gillingham service was done by 377510 (leading) and 377512 on 1S05.

 

[The Box Photter]

I've only got another 20 years until I retire, so I won't hold my breath for the NXEMU!

I thought that 317s and 319s could couple and work in multiple as they seem to have similar coupling devices. What (apart from NR red tape) would prevent FCC running a 319/317 combi that could draw the juice from OHLE north of Farringdon then totter down to Brighton with the power being provided by the dc traction 319?

Is there a restricted clearance within the Snow Hill Tunnel or is it some health & safety issue about having gangway access at each end of the train for tunnel evacuations? I thought most modern (and I use the phrase advisedly) rolling stock is built to the same loading gauge.

 

[Aictos]

I've only got another 20 years until I retire, so I won't hold my breath for the NXEMU!

I thought that 317s and 319s could couple and work in multiple as they seem to have similar coupling devices. What (apart from NR red tape) would prevent FCC running a 319/317 combi that could draw the juice from OHLE north of Farringdon then totter down to Brighton with the power being provided by the dc traction 319?

Is there a restricted clearance within the Snow Hill Tunnel or is it some health & safety issue about having gangway access at each end of the train for tunnel evacuations? I thought most modern (and I use the phrase advisedly) rolling stock is built to the same loading gauge.

I really ought to let the drivers answer this but my belief is 317s and 319s can't work coupled together in passenger service as although they share the same coupling, the electrics are different.

Much like the 220/221s cannot enter service with a 222 coupled up as although the couplers are the same, the electrics are different.

I'm probably wrong about the reason for the 319s and 317s not working in passenger service coupled together but I'm sure drivers here can supply the reason why,

 

[Class377]

317s are AC only

Ahh, I was of the understanding that they previously worked the TL route? According to wiki it went from 127 to 317 to 319.

EDIT: Ahh, 317 only did BED-STP. My bad.

 

[asylumxl]

A more accurate comparison would be Hemel and Harpenden - both of equal mileage, and both not a city!

Harpenden > St Pancras - £11.40 (24.51)
Hemel > Euston - £11.00 (24.49)

Both Anytime singles. Not that different - by reckoning Hemel > Euston is 44.9p per mile, Harpenden > St Pancras is 46.5p per mile.

By road atleast, 33.7 miles to Tring. 32.3 to Luton from respective stations. Tring works out 16p cheaper.

I do not know the rail distances, so i accept they make be quite different.

 

[Richardr]

Just hope you don't have to travel in between xmas and new year.

Can you amplify this?

 

[73110]

Can you amplify this?

The core is shut so I would say have a look on the FCC website for more details.