Arriva Rail North DOO

[Sonic1982]

Let's be honest, the need for a guard on the train is diminishing by the day.

Selling tickets? No need, most passengers buy in advance online or at stations via ticket offices or machines. You can even buy a ticket on your smartphone while you're on the train.

Checking tickets? No need, major stations have automated barriers and others can have random barrier checks as and when required.

Announcements? No need, most passengers see them as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary.

So that only leaves door operation, and once that can be done by the driver there'll be no need for a guard at all.

So if I were Northern I'd be issuing the 6-month redundancy notices now and filling any temporary vacancies with agency staff like they do with RPIs at stations. It should only take a day or so to train them up - a morning showing them how to open and close doors and an afternoon showing them how to shut yourself in your back cab and have a snooze!

Really until you’ve actually done the job don’t try and patronise those if us on here that do the job day in day out, so we don’t need to sell tickets onboard anymore funny how I take roughly £2000 on a early week and Upto £1000 on late weeks then, checking tickets well can tell you are so out of touch I can count on one hand the stations along the routes that have barriers and as for doing random barriers at rural stations get real also yes you can buy a mobile ticket but the amount of people who I catch who haven’t activated it yet wouldn’t do so if there wasn’t anyone to check them and then they could claim a refund so even if we don’t sell we are making sure they activate there mobile tickets, so you want a staff less and quiet railway then I’ll mention that to passengers that thank me for doing my clear announcements especially for out of course situations when they really do come in useful although I will agree that sometimes there’s to much waffling on when passengers just want to know they are on the right train etc, this week alone I’ve deployed the ramp 3 times for wheelchair bound people at rural unstaffed stations and helped them on so please think about the less able who require our presence, and as for your last bit that’s insulting and quite frankly a disgrace.

 

[notlob.divad]

They don't need to do that, they could just sack all the guards for gross misconduct as they have now been on strike long enough that protections no longer apply - basically the Liverpool Dockers "nuclear option".

If they are going to do that, though, that would require the "order for a fleet replacement and long-term rail replacement bus" option also to be taken. It's not as easy as Southern where "right, DOO tomorrow" was an option as all the fleet was capable of it and the drivers had agreed it.

Without taking any sides here,

I don't think the company would need to do that. They could simply hive off the services that they intend to be DOO. I assume ones to be operated by 331s and 195s. Call it Northern Connect for example. Transfer the Leases on the new units to the new company and recruit Drivers for the new service. Effectively split the Franchise in two between DOO and none DOO services, run by two different subsideries. It would be a similar process to what they did with the Banks during the financial crisis where they split banks in trouble into two, a functioning Bank and a Basketcase bank.

 

[Tomnick]

Let's be honest, the need for a guard on the train is diminishing by the day.

Selling tickets? No need, most passengers buy in advance online or at stations via ticket offices or machines. You can even buy a ticket on your smartphone while you're on the train.

Checking tickets? No need, major stations have automated barriers and others can have random barrier checks as and when required.

Announcements? No need, most passengers see them as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary.

So that only leaves door operation, and once that can be done by the driver there'll be no need for a guard at all.

So if I were Northern I'd be issuing the 6-month redundancy notices now and filling any temporary vacancies with agency staff like they do with RPIs at stations. It should only take a day or so to train them up - a morning showing them how to open and close doors and an afternoon showing them how to shut yourself in your back cab and have a snooze!

That one surely wins the award for the greatest show of ignorance, with your parting shot. No, you can’t train a “temporary” guard up in a day or so.

Anyway, stuff that you missed off your list:

Disruptive passengers, passcoms being pulled, luggage and pushchairs in the way - who’s going to deal with all that? Yes, the driver can sort out the passcom (with a delay). The rest will just get left, in the latter case, inevitably causing further delay and more than outweighing that fantastic seven second saving at each station stop.

Wheelchair users and others with disabilities? Who’s going to put them on and off? You might find announcements as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary, but they’re absolutely essential for some passengers.

Emergency protection. Yes, a relatively small risk (low probability, severe consequences), but still part of their duties, and far more important on the isolated parts of the network that will ultimately be DOO under Northern’s proposal.

 

[Puffing Devil]

That one surely wins the award for the greatest show of ignorance, with your parting shot. No, you can’t train a “temporary” guard up in a day or so.

Anyway, stuff that you missed off your list:

Disruptive passengers, passcoms being pulled, luggage and pushchairs in the way - who’s going to deal with all that? Yes, the driver can sort out the passcom (with a delay). The rest will just get left, in the latter case, inevitably causing further delay and more than outweighing that fantastic seven second saving at each station stop.

Wheelchair users and others with disabilities? Who’s going to put them on and off? You might find announcements as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary, but they’re absolutely essential for some passengers.

Emergency protection. Yes, a relatively small risk (low probability, severe consequences), but still part of their duties, and far more important on the isolated parts of the network that will ultimately be DOO under Northern’s proposal.

All can be covered with new On-Board Staff; most passengers would be happy that.

 

[Robertj21a]

Perhaps we should be quite clear on a few issues.
Most of us recognise that most guards do a good job but, as with many jobs, there are some who let the side down (and get away with it)
Most of us recognise that goodwill and co-operation are critical to providing quality services for passengers.
Most of us recognise that the DfT has their own agenda that is intended to drive forward a more efficient, modern and flexible way of operating trains. Arriva is their agent to achieve this.
Most of us recognise that the RMT are good at grass roots, local, level but have leaders who appear happy to pursue strike action at any opportunity.
As has been said many times, this whole dispute could be easily resolved in days but there is a significant lack of trust (and respect) from all sides.
Presumably, nothing much will now change until the new trains are ready..

 

[Starmill]

No, you can’t train a “temporary” guard up in a day or so.

But haven't they "contingency" guards been allowed out on trains with only around a week of training?

 

[northwichcat]

Well the ONS publishes figure each year and for 2018 the UK Average Full Time pay per week was £685.30 for the UK as a whole. For a Full Time job in the North West of England it was £626.7 and in the North East it was £600.80. They seem to multiply by 52 for an annual figure, and the numbers include overtime and bonuses. So that is 35.6k UK average, and between 32.6k and 31.2k in Northern land. So at 28k starting, at first sight, it looks as if most will be above average since that is the nature of starting salaries.

I think ONS figures are total pay including overtime. Also note weekly average is higher at certain times of the year e.g. in December and summer due to more people being in work.

 

[LowLevel]

With no safety role they have no reason or excuse to be sitting in the back cab, other than if it is necessary to retreat for their own safety in which case there will be CCTV evidence of a threat. That being the case such AFCs/OBSs won't last long in employment, unlike the subset of lazy guards who go and hide there so as not to do their job and have an excuse of "but safety critical stuff needed doing" with no way to prove otherwise.

As usual I browse through the thread and find a total misunderstanding of what I do day to day (Not a lot apparently, how do I find time to average a ticket sold every 30 seconds on entirely TVM fitted routes I wonder) so while I've given up on arguing the toss regarding the DCO/DOO thing, I would like to point out that most of what I do in the cab isn't safety critical and I would do it whether I was safety critical or not.

Use the GSMR radio - this can be for anything from reporting faults to returning a call to rosters or the train crew supervisor to customer service, delay reporting or other issues operational issues. They're all programmed in. Only when speaking to the signaller or reporting a safety defect are they strictly safely critical though a clear understanding is important.

Counting/tidying up and storing excess cash - not safety critical but why would I start shuffling around wads of 20s in public when I can pop out of the way and do it.

Charging my ticket machine - it's a smartphone loaded with apps. It goes flat. We have charging points fitted in our cabs specifically for the guard's use to charge revenue equipment which the driver isn't allowed to use.

Filing defects and logging them in the repair bookon the. A leaky bog isn't safety critical.

Having a cup of tea. Yes, I get diagrammed to spend up to 7 hours at a time on a 15x sprinter with no drinking water supply and minimal or no breaks. I might just take a few minutes to make a brew and drink it later. I might even sneak a sandwich. It's a surprisingly hostile working environment.

In summary - most of what I do that is safety critical is in the saloon or outside it on the platform or railway line.

You can legitimately spend time in the cab. The drive to have the guard on parade constantly isn't sensible. For one where do I stand on a 158 that isn't in the way - in the vestibule away from the passengers with it's total lack of heating in winter and ventilation in summer?

I am not a child, I get paid a decent sum to take charge of a trainload of passengers over hundreds of miles of railway. I do not require to be micromanaged.

Blame the total lack of any discrete monitoring whatsoever for poor habits being in place.

 

[HowardGWR]

Let's be honest, the need for a guard on the train is diminishing by the day.

Selling tickets? No need, most passengers buy in advance online or at stations via ticket offices or machines. You can even buy a ticket on your smartphone while you're on the train.

Checking tickets? No need, major stations have automated barriers and others can have random barrier checks as and when required.

Announcements? No need, most passengers see them as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary.

So that only leaves door operation, and once that can be done by the driver there'll be no need for a guard at all.

So if I were Northern I'd be issuing the 6-month redundancy notices now and filling any temporary vacancies with agency staff like they do with RPIs at stations. It should only take a day or so to train them up - a morning showing them how to open and close doors and an afternoon showing them how to shut yourself in your back cab and have a snooze!

Thanks for replying to my queries but you have not fully dealt with them, which was my complaint. Regarding selling tickets, if 'most' pax buy in advance of boarding, that means that some can't. You have not suggested how this would be handled. What is your suggestion?
Regarding checking tickets, you write that other-than-barriered stations "can have random barrier checks as and when required". I gather from this and other threads that Northern trains pass through a high proportion of deprived areas. Do you not think that there will be massive fare evasion if your suggested level of checks are employed? What degree of RPI provision, extra to that already extant, do you think necessary in unbarriered routes?
I agree with your other points. You do not deal with disabled boarding provision but I think an OBS can handle that and if DOO can be used in future on fully barriered routes (are there those?), as opposed to DCO with OBS, then I think that one just marks the stations concerned (those without staff) as not available for disabled access. Taxis from those (or the person's home) to manned stations would be cheaper.

The Northern guards' case at the moment is unsustainable. It will fail and I imagine a way will be found to issue P45s eventually, if they carry on like this. However, I don't think you have dealt with the issues sufficiently.

 

[Tomnick]

All can be covered with new On-Board Staff; most passengers would be happy that.

Most of it can, if they’re actually there. If there’s a genuine commitment to maintaining proper staffing levels, including paying overtime to cover work that’d otherwise be left uncovered, then it’d maybe not be quite so bad. If that’s the case though, what actually is the point of the whole dispute? The current situation is that you have someone who can do all of the above on every train, albeit someone who’s likely to be left behind whilst doing so or at least cause confusion (and delay, and safety implications) because they’re no longer in charge of dispatching the train. The future situation is that you have someone who can do all of the above, no more effectively*, on every train. Any cost saving will be small and almost certainly outweighed by the size of the carrot that’ll have to be dangled to ASLEF to get them to agree to take on the extra workload and responsibility. The only way it makes sense to me is if the longer term aspiration is to not bother maintaining staffing levels, in which case there won’t be anyone to do most of the above and the passengers will no longer be happy.

* - ‘driver release, guard close’ being the one compromise that might help to reduce dwell times whilst allowing the guard to maximise the “customer service” opportunitity.

But haven't they "contingency" guards been allowed out on trains with only around a week of training?

If they have, then I would suggest that the level of training is wholly inadequate. It’s not enough to cover the basics of the rules, let alone route and traction training. I certainly wouldn’t want to be working a train with someone so poorly trained at the back.

 

[Jonfun]

All can be covered with new On-Board Staff; most passengers would be happy that.

There's been nothing within the industry to make sure that the replacement role has sufficient training, though. And, with where we are at the moment, there's no guarantee there'll actually be one on board!

 

[HH]

Actually you are totally wrong. It has opened peoples eyes, and a lot of people ask why a German owned company is taking taxpayer funded losses out of the country.

Corrected.

 

[HH]

But haven't they "contingency" guards been allowed out on trains with only around a week of training?

Do you have any evidence of this? As Tomnick said, one week is nowhere near enough.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Thanks for replying to my queries but you have not fully dealt with them, which was my complaint. Regarding selling tickets, if 'most' pax buy in advance of boarding, that means that some can't. You have not suggested how this would be handled. What is your suggestion?
Regarding checking tickets, you write that other-than-barriered stations "can have random barrier checks as and when required". I gather from this and other threads that Northern trains pass through a high proportion of deprived areas. Do you not think that there will be massive fare evasion if your suggested level of checks are employed? What degree of RPI provision, extra to that already extant, do you think necessary in unbarriered routes?
I agree with your other points. You do not deal with disabled boarding provision but I think an OBS can handle that and if DOO can be used in future on fully barriered routes (are there those?), as opposed to DCO with OBS, then I think that one just marks the stations concerned (those without staff) as not available for disabled access. Taxis from those (or the person's home) to manned stations would be cheaper.

The Northern guards' case at the moment is unsustainable. It will fail and I imagine a way will be found to issue P45s eventually, if they carry on like this. However, I don't think you have dealt with the issues sufficiently.

It's not for me to fully deal with every issue you raise - I don't work for Northern and have no influence in resolving the dispute!

Having said that, I don't think the issue of selling and checking tickets to/from unmanned stations is that big a deal. As I said, the majority of passengers will already hold tickets and will have them inspected either at the start or end of the journey. Yes that may mean the tiny proportion of passengers who both board and depart at unmanned stations may get a free journey, but if the lost revenue is smaller than the cost of employing a guard then Northern may think it a price worth paying. Especially as, until this duspute is resolved, the guard and his union can pick and choose what days they come into work! And of course, many TOCs have already dispensed with guards so there's already a precedent.

Another (slightly flippant) point. You know how some shops have a lifesize cardboard cut out of a policeman by the door to discourage shoplifters? Perhaps Northern should place a lifesize cardboard cut out of a guard by the train doors to deter fare dodgers?

 

[Starmill]

Do you have any evidence of this? As Tomnick said, one week is nowhere near enough.

No of course I don't. It's the standard rumour as per this thread. I was highlighting that Tomnick's comments conflict with 'the narrative'. Why would I know what the reality is?

 

[Carlisle]

They could simply hive off the services that they intend to be DOO. I assume ones to be operated by 331s and 195s. Call it Northern Connect for example. Transfer the Leases on the new units to the new company

Given Arriva have promised no redundancies that’d probably only work if the salaries and conditions offered by the new company were attractive enough to incentivise a sufficient number of existing drivers and guards to volunteer to transfer over, if you just TUPE the required number across It’ll still require any changes from existing conditions to be negotiated through the usual collective bargaining process, no doubt with further strikes along the way

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for replying to my queries but you have not fully dealt with them, which was my complaint. Regarding selling tickets, if 'most' pax buy in advance of boarding, that means that some can't. You have not suggested how this would be handled. What is your suggestion?
Regarding checking tickets, you write that other-than-barriered stations "can have random barrier checks as and when required". I gather from this and other threads that Northern trains pass through a high proportion of deprived areas. Do you not think that there will be massive fare evasion if your suggested level of checks are employed? What degree of RPI provision, extra to that already extant, do you think necessary in unbarriered routes?

That would be a question to ask Metrolink, who operate a wholly DOO service through places that aren't any different to the ones Northern are serving (in the urban areas at least, where DOO without OBS is most likely, given that that's primarily where you find it elsewhere in the UK and in other countries).

 

[Robertj21a]

Thanks for replying to my queries but you have not fully dealt with them, which was my complaint. Regarding selling tickets, if 'most' pax buy in advance of boarding, that means that some can't. You have not suggested how this would be handled. What is your suggestion?
Regarding checking tickets, you write that other-than-barriered stations "can have random barrier checks as and when required". I gather from this and other threads that Northern trains pass through a high proportion of deprived areas. Do you not think that there will be massive fare evasion if your suggested level of checks are employed? What degree of RPI provision, extra to that already extant, do you think necessary in unbarriered routes?
I agree with your other points. You do not deal with disabled boarding provision but I think an OBS can handle that and if DOO can be used in future on fully barriered routes (are there those?), as opposed to DCO with OBS, then I think that one just marks the stations concerned (those without staff) as not available for disabled access. Taxis from those (or the person's home) to manned stations would be cheaper.

The Northern guards' case at the moment is unsustainable. It will fail and I imagine a way will be found to issue P45s eventually, if they carry on like this. However, I don't think you have dealt with the issues sufficiently.

It may not fully answer your queries but it may be possible to use the Nottingham trams ('pure' DOO) as another variation. There are no barriers at all, but there are ticket machines on every station, so no excuse for not having a valid ticket. This is then coupled with a very significance presence of ticket inspectors at random times, who tend to 'blitz' specific areas.

 

[PomWombat]

If there’s a genuine commitment to maintaining proper staffing levels, including paying overtime to cover work that’d otherwise be left uncovered, then it’d maybe not be quite so bad. If that’s the case though, what actually is the point of the whole dispute? .

What is the point indeed?

Mick "did I just shoot myself in the right foot or the left foot" Cash said yesterday that Northern had not made any proposals. He might be right, but he started the strike without any proposals from Northern either.

And RMT won't put themselves in the position of listening and/or talking about potential proposals either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may not fully answer your queries but it may be possible to use the Nottingham trams ('pure' DOO) as another variation. There are no barriers at all, but there are ticket machines on every station, so no excuse for not having a valid ticket. This is then coupled with a very significance presence of ticket inspectors at random times, who tend to 'blitz' specific areas.

Exactly the same as Metrolink.

 

[woodmally]

Dont know if its been posted but more dates have been announced. No surprises here its Saturdays again!
"
RMT Press Office:

RMT confirms raft of new strike dates on Northern Rail in fight over guards and rail safety as members gear up for 41st day of action Saturday‎.

RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed a raft of new strike dates on Arriva Rail North over attacks on the role of the safety-critical guard and the extension of Driver Only Operation in the name of increased profits. The announcement comes as members gear up for the 41st day of strike action on Saturday.

The long-running campaign of action takes place as the company continues to refuse to engage in serious and meaningful talks around the guard guarantee that could form the basis for a settlement. Instead it has carried out a publicity stunt this week by calling for an inquiry into the dispute.

No inquiry is needed into the fact that company bosses have strung union negotiators along rather than looking seriously for a settlement when there has been an opportunity to strike an agreement on the ‎guard guarantee that matches the best practice in the industry and in line with deals struck by the union across Wales, Scotland and other parts of England. They have not made a single serious offer to the union aimed at resolving the dispute.

All RMT Arriva Rail North Conductor, Conductor Instructor and Train Driver members had already been instructed to take action as follows:

Not to book on for on for duty between:

• 00:01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 22nd December 2018
• 00:01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 29th December 2018

The additional dates that RMT members are instructed to not to book on are for any shifts that commence between:-

• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 5th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 12th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 19th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 26th January 2019

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT continues to make every effort to get serious and meaningful talks going with Northern but the company are not interested and would prefer to call for an inquiry into the dispute to deflect attention from the impact of their behaviour on the travelling public.

“German-owned Northern Rail want to run nearly half a million trains a year without a safety critical guard on board in a move that would wreck both safety and access ‎to services and they should listen to their front-line staff and pull back from that plan immediately.

“We thank the public for their support and understanding throughout this dispute over rail safety and access and the union remains ready for genuine and serious talks.”

 

[LowLevel]

Exactly the same as Metrolink.

Which is often in the news for it's issues with anti social behaviour and fare evasion so not exactly a shining example. There are currently calls from councils in the Oldham and Rochdale areas to pilot having on board staff to try and tackle them.

Nottingham I will say seems to manage much better.

Sheffield on the other hand has a conductor on every tram and is rated even more highly than Nottingham.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sheffield on the other hand has a conductor on every tram and is rated even more highly than Nottingham.

Who doesn't operate the doors.

One thing that might be an option would be to have OBS funded by closing ticket offices. Then fare collection would be mostly on-board. I think passengers might actually like that?

What is clear though is that that wouldn't work if they had to do the doors.

 

[Robertj21a]

Dont know if its been posted but more dates have been announced. No surprises here its Saturdays again!
"
RMT Press Office:

RMT confirms raft of new strike dates on Northern Rail in fight over guards and rail safety as members gear up for 41st day of action Saturday‎.

RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed a raft of new strike dates on Arriva Rail North over attacks on the role of the safety-critical guard and the extension of Driver Only Operation in the name of increased profits. The announcement comes as members gear up for the 41st day of strike action on Saturday.

The long-running campaign of action takes place as the company continues to refuse to engage in serious and meaningful talks around the guard guarantee that could form the basis for a settlement. Instead it has carried out a publicity stunt this week by calling for an inquiry into the dispute.

No inquiry is needed into the fact that company bosses have strung union negotiators along rather than looking seriously for a settlement when there has been an opportunity to strike an agreement on the ‎guard guarantee that matches the best practice in the industry and in line with deals struck by the union across Wales, Scotland and other parts of England. They have not made a single serious offer to the union aimed at resolving the dispute.

All RMT Arriva Rail North Conductor, Conductor Instructor and Train Driver members had already been instructed to take action as follows:

Not to book on for on for duty between:

• 00:01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 22nd December 2018
• 00:01 hours and 23:59 hours on Saturday 29th December 2018

The additional dates that RMT members are instructed to not to book on are for any shifts that commence between:-

• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 5th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 12th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 19th January 2019
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 26th January 2019

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT continues to make every effort to get serious and meaningful talks going with Northern but the company are not interested and would prefer to call for an inquiry into the dispute to deflect attention from the impact of their behaviour on the travelling public.

“German-owned Northern Rail want to run nearly half a million trains a year without a safety critical guard on board in a move that would wreck both safety and access ‎to services and they should listen to their front-line staff and pull back from that plan immediately.

“We thank the public for their support and understanding throughout this dispute over rail safety and access and the union remains ready for genuine and serious talks.”

What I don't get from the RMT rants is that they emphasise 'without a safety critical guard on board in a move that would wreck both safety .......etc etc' - and yet it's the same RMT union that has accepted it elsewhere.

Without a guard is either 'wrecking safety' - or not !

 

[LowLevel]

Who doesn't operate the doors.

One thing that might be an option would be to have OBS funded by closing ticket offices. Then fare collection would be mostly on-board. I think passengers might actually like that?

What is clear though is that that wouldn't work if they had to do the doors.

It depends on the route. If as predicted mobile tickets take off (and they are) it's a matter of seconds to point and click at the barcode. The scanner vibrates and bleeps to tell you the action required so I can tell if a ticket is OK before it even appears fully on the phone screen. I'm extremely quick at selling standard local tickets and this is even faster than that.

Its a fact that at many stations in the north 'local' booking offices are part time to cover peak selling periods and maybe that doesn't even exist anymore.

In my area this is exactly what happened. The booking offices were mostly shut by BR in the 60s and Regional Railways Central in the late 80s and early 90s in favour of conductor guard operated pay trains (in the north and West Midlands more places retained manned stations). On most of our routes we do/did everything (though TVMs have reduced the workload a bit but not everywhere) including the doors, passenger assistance and selling all the tickets. We've always managed.

If anything what has made the difference has been the introduction of intermediate door panels and TVMs have taken the edge off. I can still clear 500-700 quid in local small cash fares in 40-50 minutes, especially on a Saturday. I can also do the doors every 3 or 4 minutes. If I can, and my colleagues can (we score consistently highly in surveys and even the DfT noted that we are well regarded as a workforce in the industry and by our customers) why is it unworkable elsewhere - that's what I don't understand.

 

[Carlisle]

What I don't get from the RMT rants is that they emphasise 'without a safety critical guard on board in a move that would wreck both safety .......etc etc' - and yet it's the same RMT union that has accepted it elsewhere.

Without a guard is either 'wrecking safety' - or not !

The NUR/ RMT haven’t held a consistent position on DOO, initially whilst understandably never actively supporting it they did accept it.(although ASLEF prevented 2 schemes) later, soon after privatisation they switched to opposing any new schemes and most additions to any existing ones, then joined up with ASLEF to stop any further DOO altogether, then relented a bit with the anglia and merseyrail deals before retreating back to insisting on full door control .

 

[muz379]

P45 anyone? That is what happens in the real world to anyone refusing to do their job.

Only if caught doing it

Have you seen what unions do anytime someone screws up to the point that they need to be sacked? If you're a union member, it's pretty much impossible to get the boot.

Simply untrue .

With no safety role they have no reason or excuse to be sitting in the back cab, other than if it is necessary to retreat for their own safety in which case there will be CCTV evidence of a threat. That being the case such AFCs/OBSs won't last long in employment, unlike the subset of lazy guards who go and hide there so as not to do their job and have an excuse of "but safety critical stuff needed doing" with no way to prove otherwise.

I think LowLevel already pretty clearly addressed this by pointing out that much of the stuff done in the back cab is not even safety critical . I will just add two things , firstly that if obs working is introduced its likely that the diagrams will be even tighter than the guards current diagrams and so will probably include even longer stretches on trains so the little things LowLevel alluded to like having a sandwich or a cup of coffee in the back are just going to occur more often .

Secondly any trouble you might get in is dependant on getting caught , as I mentioned earlier other franchises have carried out mystery shopping exercises to check their guards are making announcements and regularly patrolling the train . Just like my point about lazy guards now sitting in the back cab becoming lazy obs's , if there is no risk of being caught as a guard why would there be any more risk being caught as an obs ? It is fairly easy to work out as a guard when it is worth your while going through because you will sell a few tickets and when you can just sit in the back should you wish because you will just be checking a load of tickets and getting people to activate mobile tickets .Should you wish you could use this information to ensure that your revenue collection is still consistent with colleagues who constantly patrol the train whilst only spending half as much time in the passenger saloon . If the revenue figures are continued to be used as the sole means of measuring the guards/obs's level of customer service then its likely people will still be able to do half a job unchecked .

I also dont buy into this idea that we can use the excuse of "but safety critical stuff needed doing" . Anything that is so safety critical that it could not wait would be logged and easy to check up on . And even then you might justifiably be doing something relevant to the safe or punctual operation of the train for a short period but not a full round trip .

Let's be honest, the need for a guard on the train is diminishing by the day.

Selling tickets? No need, most passengers buy in advance online or at stations via ticket offices or machines. You can even buy a ticket on your smartphone while you're on the train.

Checking tickets? No need, major stations have automated barriers and others can have random barrier checks as and when required.

Announcements? No need, most passengers see them as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary.

So that only leaves door operation, and once that can be done by the driver there'll be no need for a guard at all.

So if I were Northern I'd be issuing the 6-month redundancy notices now and filling any temporary vacancies with agency staff like they do with RPIs at stations. It should only take a day or so to train them up - a morning showing them how to open and close doors and an afternoon showing them how to shut yourself in your back cab and have a snooze!

Still sell plenty enough tickets to justify the role . A fair proportion of people still wish to pay with cash which a lot of ticket machines dont accept because of security concerns .

Ticket barriers cannot identify things like short faring , travelling on invalid routes or with invalid advance or toc specific tickets . And the vast majority of Northern stations are not in major cities with barriers anyway . You would create a huge amount of ticket less travel outside of the major cities . And these are the places which are more likely to have the highest fares because of the lack of subsidy from PTE's .

Announcements are largely becoming automated now , but are still an important part of communicating during service disruption . In fact one of the things consistently complained about and brought up in passenger surveys is lack of information during disruption . If announcements are not one of the key ways of getting that information accross to a large number of passengers I dont know what is .

You also forgot a big one which is assisting disabled passengers on and off the train at unstaffed stations on the network which is a vast majority of stations at some point or other during the day . But then its no surprise the way you have come across here that you forgot those that might actually be less fortunate than yourself

As for training someone in a day or two , dream on . You would struggle to find people willing to sign their name to say someone who has only had a day or two training is competent to be in charge of a train load of passengers .

Not knowing all the intricacies.... I'm assuming a second person could be recruited now replace the guard role and to close the doors on all stock that required it and a cut-over to full DOO made fleet by fleet as new stock came in. Subject to driver agreement.

It would take some time to train any second person recruited now . And the RMT could gain recognition for this new grade and have a ballot all the same .

Without taking any sides here,

I don't think the company would need to do that. They could simply hive off the services that they intend to be DOO. I assume ones to be operated by 331s and 195s. Call it Northern Connect for example. Transfer the Leases on the new units to the new company and recruit Drivers for the new service. Effectively split the Franchise in two between DOO and none DOO services, run by two different subsideries. It would be a similar process to what they did with the Banks during the financial crisis where they split banks in trouble into two, a functioning Bank and a Basketcase bank.

Would that not need approval from the DFT and ORR . Establishing a new train operating company is not just something you can do overnight . Having a small operation like that would probably be pretty inefficient as well . And a whole new set of T's&C's would have to be agreed with ASLEF .

But haven't they "contingency" guards been allowed out on trains with only around a week of training?

And as a result we have seen a number of incidents . One of probably the worst I have seen is stand in guards on SWR working over routes they didn't even have competency over .

Blame the total lack of any discrete monitoring whatsoever for poor habits being in place.

The blame for me rests squarely with individual staff who knowingly dont do the best job they can . But the fact it is allowed to go unchecked is obviously unhelpful .

Who doesn't operate the doors.

One thing that might be an option would be to have OBS funded by closing ticket offices. Then fare collection would be mostly on-board. I think passengers might actually like that?

What is clear though is that that wouldn't work if they had to do the doors.

My personal view on ticket offices is that they should either be staffed for a substantial part of the days service or not bothered with at all . It only causes confusion for passengers when the station is plastered with penalty fare notices and they can buy a ticket from the office when going to work at 7:30am but if they are travelling into town at 3pm on their day off the office is closed .

I dont even think doing the doors would be an issue on any route I work if all stock had intermediate door controls . Because even as an OBS you are going to need to be out of the way when the train is in a station anyway . And depending on what provisions are introduced for disabled passengers checking the platform might even be part of the duties anyway .

 

[Puffing Devil]

It would take some time to train any second person recruited now . And the RMT could gain recognition for this new grade and have a ballot all the same .

If the RMT did gain recognition for the new grade, with a different job description, what would be the point of any action?

 

[HowardGWR]

It depends on the route. If as predicted mobile tickets take off (and they are) it's a matter of seconds to point and click at the barcode. The scanner vibrates and bleeps to tell you the action required so I can tell if a ticket is OK before it even appears fully on the phone screen. I'm extremely quick at selling standard local tickets and this is even faster than that.

Its a fact that at many stations in the north 'local' booking offices are part time to cover peak selling periods and maybe that doesn't even exist anymore.

In my area this is exactly what happened. The booking offices were mostly shut by BR in the 60s and Regional Railways Central in the late 80s and early 90s in favour of conductor guard operated pay trains (in the north and West Midlands more places retained manned stations). On most of our routes we do/did everything (though TVMs have reduced the workload a bit but not everywhere) including the doors, passenger assistance and selling all the tickets. We've always managed.

If anything what has made the difference has been the introduction of intermediate door panels and TVMs have taken the edge off. I can still clear 500-700 quid in local small cash fares in 40-50 minutes, especially on a Saturday. I can also do the doors every 3 or 4 minutes. If I can, and my colleagues can (we score consistently highly in surveys and even the DfT noted that we are well regarded as a workforce in the industry and by our customers) why is it unworkable elsewhere - that's what I don't understand.

In the course of reading your many impressive replies to this thread, I have only had a problem with this:
1. Say all your stations were barriered, the trains all DCO-fitted, and tickets had to be bought before boarding, as on the London suburban trains, trams and tubes, do you not think that no more than a roving RTI is needed? In other words, DOO?
2. Now say that your trains were DCO-fitted, but the other two elements in 1. are absent, do you not think that your job only needs to be an OBS function and that if you were to fail to turn up, that the train could, pragmatically, depart without you on that occasion (if no sub was available)?

Remember that your safety and supervisory functions, quoted by you with natural pride, are deemed unnecessary on present DOO services, many of which, for instance, carry the badly-behaved element in our society. I know you are very motivated about this aspect of your work, and I have admired your anecdotes of performance, especially with vulnerable pax, but it would appear that TOCs are willing to do without that service. I just wonder what you think about whether what you do is 'nice to have' or essential? I just cannot believe that even the most callous TOC manager would want to do away with an 'essential' function.

 

[LowLevel]

In the course of reading your many impressive replies to this thread, I have only had a problem with this:
1. Say all your stations were barriered, the trains all DCO-fitted, and tickets had to be bought before boarding, as on the London suburban trains, trams and tubes, do you not think that no more than a roving RTI is needed? In other words, DOO?
2. Now say that your trains were DCO-fitted, but the other two elements in 1. are absent, do you not think that your job only needs to be an OBS function and that if you were to fail to turn up, that the train could, pragmatically, depart without you on that occasion (if no sub was available)?

Remember that your safety and supervisory functions, quoted by you with natural pride, are deemed unnecessary on present DOO services, many of which, for instance, carry the badly-behaved element in our society. I know you are very motivated about this aspect of your work, and I have admired your anecdotes of performance, especially with vulnerable pax, but it would appear that TOCs are willing to do without that service. I just wonder what you think about whether what you do is 'nice to have' or essential? I just cannot believe that even the most callous TOC manager would want to do away with an 'essential' function.

Honestly?

In the case of 1 - if you had a route with frequent, well staffed stations, a decent level of operational support (the likes of NR mobile operations managers, transport policy and good quality security officers rather than rent-a-thugs), operational technology invested in for the optimum rather than just the 'it'll do/it's cheap', and a well staffed control room that can communicate in real time with those on board the trains (video link assistance screens maybe? Perhaps subject to abuse) then to a degree I don't have a huge issue with full DOO. You cover the bases, you have a solid response team in case of problems and people who need help should be able to get it. The Overground is a good example. I'm not actually hung up on doors. My belief is that where on board crews are present they should have some involvement in whether the train leaves regardless of who monitors the safety aspect and there's a lot of useful work done on platforms so they should be free to move about them.

As for 2. If you're going to provide a guard, you should do it properly and ensure there's cover. Having been the one to run through the train into the front driving cab to be greeted by a driver in serious doubts about whether they were able to carry out their duties and help them all the way through until relief arrived, it's a very different role to driving the train. I had a period of 3 weeks or so this year where I had 3 or 4 serious incidents. In all of them the external response was slow (over 90 minutes) or non existent and we had to manage ourselves. In the most serious there were about 4 other trains stranded as a result of my issue, either at unmanned or single manned stations in a heatwave. In my case I had a driver in a bit of a state, a train load of passengers varying from scared to upset to angry to about to bail out, and a broken train.

Train drivers are recruited to efficiently carry out repetitive tasks safely with a small bit of lip service to being presentable and customer service. Very few I have come across are 'people persons' who enjoy engaging with the public and the competencies are very different - almost opposite in fact. That's what you need in a guard/OBS role.

So with the status quo, where I work, and in many Northern areas if not all of them, if all you changed was to have a train with DOO cameras and a pass com holdover switch I would have it wait for it's guard/OBS. The support structure isn't there. Look at the Network Rail logs and there's constantly gaps in coverage. Control teams still go to a skeleton staff in the evening and on Sundays. If a major incident happens overnight it can turn into an utter farce - I recall one fatality where it took in the order of 3 hours to get a driver manager on site and the guard continued without relief. We've had similar issues with drivers being injured and unable to work.

Sure we have an on train radio but when the poo hits the fan you can feel very alone at times.

If the incidents were as rare as it's claimed they should be then it would be fair enough. But they seem to keep happening to us.

As a final note I'm not, as my passion may occasionally cloud, a blinkered person. I've got more experience than perhaps my posts would leave you to believe, including outside the industry and in management roles. I've worked in business transformation teams and so on. I know things will change and as long as I still enjoy my job I'll hang around.