Arriva Rail North DOO

[Meerkat]

The RMT must be holding out for Jezza
The DfT are presumably holding out for enough new trains to get a deal with ASLEF and impose new contracts or redundancy on the guards.

 

[Killingworth]

The RMT must be holding out for Jezza
The DfT are presumably holding out for enough new trains to get a deal with ASLEF and impose new contracts or redundancy on the guards.

And I'm holding out little hope of catching a train to Edale on a Saturday in 2019. Somewhat ironic as it was Labour Transport Minister Barbara Castle who spent childhood holidays there by train and who allegedly may have saved the passenger service to the Hope Valley from the Beeching axe.

 

[Confused52]

Indeed's top 10 jobs within 25 miles of Knutsford, Cheshire (10 random jobs):

1. Salary DOE
2. £23,000 - £28,000 (40 hour working week)
3. Salary DOE
4. £7 - £9 an hour
5. £25,744 a year (37.5 hour working week)
6. £19,000-£20,000
7. Salary DOE
8. £19,000-£23,000
9. £18,000-£20,000
10. £18,000

With some jobs being DOE and others having a rate between two boundaries it's impossible to say what the 'average' or a typical one will be.

Well the ONS publishes figure each year and for 2018 the UK Average Full Time pay per week was £685.30 for the UK as a whole. For a Full Time job in the North West of England it was £626.7 and in the North East it was £600.80. They seem to multiply by 52 for an annual figure, and the numbers include overtime and bonuses. So that is 35.6k UK average, and between 32.6k and 31.2k in Northern land. So at 28k starting, at first sight, it looks as if most will be above average since that is the nature of starting salaries.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

To be honest I reckon it's time Northern got tough with the RMT bullies and said "Enough is enough. We've bent over backwards to give concessions and keep a guard on the train even though they serve little purpose. You've not made any effort to meet us halfway so we're now withdrawing that offer and all our new trains will have no guard on them at all. What are you going to do about it?".

And of course there's nothing the RMT can do that's any worse than what they're already doing! Checkmate!

 

[LETHLFH]

They cannot play that card without first agreeing a package with ASLEF for drivers to drive DOO(p). I don’t believe Northern have approached ASLEF at the moment. I can’t imagine it will be as straight forward as Southern either as they already had trains that ran DOO(p).

 

[dilbertphil]

They cannot play that card without first agreeing a package with ASLEF for drivers to drive DOO(p). I don’t believe Northern have approached ASLEF at the moment. I can’t imagine it will be as straight forward as Southern either as they already had trains that ran DOO(p).

If Northern made ASLEF members the right offer it would be accepted. I know enough Northern drivers who whilst publicly would say never when it came to a ballot with a big enough carrot dangled would vote yes in a heartbeat.

 

[Jonfun]

If Northern made ASLEF members the right offer it would be accepted. I know enough Northern drivers who whilst publicly would say never when it came to a ballot with a big enough carrot dangled would vote yes in a heartbeat.

The problem of course, is how much is that carrot going to cost Northern...

 

[Mag_seven]

The problem of course, is how much is that carrot going to cost Northern...

The problem of course, is how much is that carrot going to cost Northern... the Northern fare payer

Corrected that for you.

 

[Kite159]

The problem of course, is how much is that carrot going to cost Northern... the Northern fare payer

Corrected that for you.

The problem of course, is how much is that carrot going to cost Northern... the Northern fare payer The Taxpayer

Corrected that for you

 

[HowardGWR]

To be honest I reckon it's time Northern got tough with the RMT bullies and said "Enough is enough. We've bent over backwards to give concessions and keep a guard on the train even though they serve little purpose. You've not made any effort to meet us halfway so we're now withdrawing that offer and all our new trains will have no guard on them at all. What are you going to do about it?".

And of course there's nothing the RMT can do that's any worse than what they're already doing! Checkmate!

How could they do that if most of the trains are not yet equipped for DCO yet? How also, if they need guards to collect revenue and check tickets, even if they had trains equipped for DCO?
Perhaps I missed something in your point.

 

[furnessvale]

How could they do that if most of the trains are not yet equipped for DCO yet? How also, if they need guards to collect revenue and check tickets, even if they had trains equipped for DCO?
Perhaps I missed something in your point.

I think the point is they don't need GUARDS to collect fares, they need AFCs or similar and if the AFC is absent for any reason, the passengers get a free ride, rather like now when the guard inhabits the back cab.

 

[Starmill]

Well that is January taken care of. February and March will soon follow.

4 is not 52. Or is there some difficulty with ordinal numbers now at RMT HQ?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Vivid imagination. Interesting that the only time in months Northern held a 'Meet the manager' session it had to be in leafy Congleton with the resident Tory MP coming along to say her piece.
Now why don't they hold one in Wigan, Manchester, or Ormskirk?

I was responsible for that. (and one or two other passengers / constituents).
I wasn't just focused on the industrial action that was simply a contributing factor to northern's failings here (8th busiest station with no CIS (installed yesterday), removal of advance northern tickets leading to unfair fares compared to MAC/SOT, fictional promised hourly Sunday service (needed now more than ever) and the continued removal of key peak services despite increasing passenger figures!).

Interestingly an RMT member did turn up to 'confront' the northern managers that turned up (he seemed somewhat outnumbered though.)

 

[PR1Berske]

To be honest I reckon it's time Northern got tough with the RMT bullies and said "Enough is enough. We've bent over backwards to give concessions and keep a guard on the train even though they serve little purpose. You've not made any effort to meet us halfway so we're now withdrawing that offer and all our new trains will have no guard on them at all. What are you going to do about it?".

And of course there's nothing the RMT can do that's any worse than what they're already doing! Checkmate!

Absolutely.

In any dispute there has to be compromise.

 

[muz379]

To be honest I reckon it's time Northern got tough with the RMT bullies and said "Enough is enough. We've bent over backwards to give concessions and keep a guard on the train even though they serve little purpose. You've not made any effort to meet us halfway so we're now withdrawing that offer and all our new trains will have no guard on them at all. What are you going to do about it?".

And of course there's nothing the RMT can do that's any worse than what they're already doing! Checkmate!

They've not bent over backwards to keep a guard on the train , hence the reason the dispute is still ongoing . There is a commitment to keep a second person the on the train , but there has so far been no confirmation that this second person will be safety critical nor that they will be guaranteed .
Anyway that minor detail aside , do you not think that if they could "get tough" they would ? This is the problem with this dispute there is still going to be a requirement for a guard working as they currently do because the stock and routes suitable for DOO is going to be limited at the intended introduction of the method of work hence making the option of just reaching agreement with ASLEF and ignoring the RMT until such a time that they can just start to run trains without guards . I am firmly of the view that regardless of what side you are on in this dispute the current series of events has already been planned for by the DFT . Hence why they have just handed over £24million to the franchise without comment . I mean nobody can say that the RMT was secret about their objections even before the ITT phase .

I think the point is they don't need GUARDS to collect fares, they need AFCs or similar and if the AFC is absent for any reason, the passengers get a free ride, rather like now when the guard inhabits the back cab.

or when the AFC inhabits the back cab ? Surely someone that does that as a guard is going to do the same as an OBS ?

Ive yet to have anyone credibly explain to me why someone that dwells in the back cab as a guard will be any different once you change their job title ? If anything you just give them more time to dwell in the back cab .

 

[yorksrob]

The RMT executive were called back to London last Friday to debate a proposal that was supposedly being submitted that day. This was after Andy Burnham, Bredan Barber (ACAS) thought they had negotiated a form of words with the Tory Rail Minister that they believed would help break the deadlock. The Unions executive all made their way to London but the proposal never arrived in writing.

Well, fair play to these two. They seem to be the only people actively seeking a resolution to this fiasco.

They've not bent over backwards to keep a guard on the train , hence the reason the dispute is still ongoing . There is a commitment to keep a second person the on the train , but there has so far been no confirmation that this second person will be safety critical nor that they will be guaranteed .
Anyway that minor detail aside , do you not think that if they could "get tough" they would ? This is the problem with this dispute there is still going to be a requirement for a guard working as they currently do because the stock and routes suitable for DOO is going to be limited at the intended introduction of the method of work hence making the option of just reaching agreement with ASLEF and ignoring the RMT until such a time that they can just start to run trains without guards . I am firmly of the view that regardless of what side you are on in this dispute the current series of events has already been planned for by the DFT . Hence why they have just handed over £24million to the franchise without comment . I mean nobody can say that the RMT was secret about their objections even before the ITT phase .


or when the AFC inhabits the back cab ? Surely someone that does that as a guard is going to do the same as an OBS ?

Ive yet to have anyone credibly explain to me why someone that dwells in the back cab as a guard will be any different once you change their job title ? If anything you just give them more time to dwell in the back cab .

Heads must roll in the DfT. These incompetents are clearly happy to let the Northern economy go to hell in a handcart just to prove a point.

 

[Jonfun]

I am firmly of the view that regardless of what side you are on in this dispute the current series of events has already been planned for by the DFT . Hence why they have just handed over £24million to the franchise without comment . I mean nobody can say that the RMT was secret about their objections even before the ITT phase .

Let's just look at this in a slightly different way - Northern go to great lengths to say that this dispute is unnecessary, the guards will still get a job with the same pay, all thats changing is who closes the doors.

Then we hear talk that Northern have had to take an alleged 24m payout from the governement, which we can assume compensates them for what they've lost.

What we appear to be seeing here, taking everything at face value, is that it has cost Northern 24m to change who closes the doors.

In what other industry would that level of loss be considered acceptable?

 

[Robertj21a]

Let's just look at this in a slightly different way - Northern go to great lengths to say that this dispute is unnecessary, the guards will still get a job with the same pay, all thats changing is who closes the doors.

Then we hear talk that Northern have had to take an alleged 24m payout from the governement, which we can assume compensates them for what they've lost.

What we appear to be seeing here, taking everything at face value, is that it has cost Northern 24m to change who closes the doors.

In what other industry would that level of loss be considered acceptable?

That sounds like a sizeable jump in assumptions to me.

 

[Robertj21a]

Absolutely.

In any dispute there has to be compromise.

No, there doesn't. If one party is determined to bulldoze their own requirements, regardless of logic or common sense, then it would be crazy to just meet somewhere in the middle.
(not suggesting that it applies in this case).

 

[Jonfun]

That sounds like a sizeable jump in assumptions to me.

Somehow I don't think we'll ever find out whether 24m is an accurate figure or not.

 

[furnessvale]

or when the AFC inhabits the back cab ? Surely someone that does that as a guard is going to do the same as an OBS ?

Ive yet to have anyone credibly explain to me why someone that dwells in the back cab as a guard will be any different once you change their job title ? If anything you just give them more time to dwell in the back cab .

P45 anyone? That is what happens in the real world to anyone refusing to do their job.

 

[LOL The Irony]

P45 anyone? That is what happens in the real world to anyone refusing to do their job.

Have you seen what unions do anytime someone screws up to the point that they need to be sacked? If you're a union member, it's pretty much impossible to get the boot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

or when the AFC inhabits the back cab ? Surely someone that does that as a guard is going to do the same as an OBS ?

With no safety role they have no reason or excuse to be sitting in the back cab, other than if it is necessary to retreat for their own safety in which case there will be CCTV evidence of a threat. That being the case such AFCs/OBSs won't last long in employment, unlike the subset of lazy guards who go and hide there so as not to do their job and have an excuse of "but safety critical stuff needed doing" with no way to prove otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you seen what unions do anytime someone screws up to the point that they need to be sacked? If you're a union member, it's pretty much impossible to get the boot.

An advantage of the RMT not recognising the role?

You don't see Southern OBSs hiding in the cab. Mind you you don't see SWR revenue guards hiding there either, there seems to be a totally different culture on those two franchises.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

How could they do that if most of the trains are not yet equipped for DCO yet? How also, if they need guards to collect revenue and check tickets, even if they had trains equipped for DCO?
Perhaps I missed something in your point.

Let's be honest, the need for a guard on the train is diminishing by the day.

Selling tickets? No need, most passengers buy in advance online or at stations via ticket offices or machines. You can even buy a ticket on your smartphone while you're on the train.

Checking tickets? No need, major stations have automated barriers and others can have random barrier checks as and when required.

Announcements? No need, most passengers see them as obtrusive, patronising and unnecessary.

So that only leaves door operation, and once that can be done by the driver there'll be no need for a guard at all.

So if I were Northern I'd be issuing the 6-month redundancy notices now and filling any temporary vacancies with agency staff like they do with RPIs at stations. It should only take a day or so to train them up - a morning showing them how to open and close doors and an afternoon showing them how to shut yourself in your back cab and have a snooze!

 

[SC43090]

Somehow I don't think we'll ever find out whether 24m is an accurate figure or not.

You could try a freedom of information act.....

SC 43090

 

[Carlisle]

In what other industry would that level of loss be considered acceptable?

Whats your point? Don’t you think a fully commercial operation would long since have issued new contracts or become insolvent and closed, either way those refusing compromise would by now no longer be employed by the company. Unions know the franchised passanger railway is really just pretend capitalism and those natural cheques and balances don’t apply so can organise these long and disruptive campaigns with almost no fear of any real consequences

 

[Puffing Devil]

What would be the legality of closing down the franchise and making all the staff redundant, whilst establishing a new franchise company recruiting only those staff that they wanted to retain? They could recruit and train an army of onboard staff before making the transition which would be seamless for all other staff apart from the guards, as that role would be gone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would be the legality of closing down the franchise and making all the staff redundant, whilst establishing a new franchise company recruiting only those staff that they wanted to retain? They could recruit and train an army of onboard staff before making the transition which would be seamless for all other staff apart from the guards, as that role would be gone.

They don't need to do that, they could just sack all the guards for gross misconduct as they have now been on strike long enough that protections no longer apply - basically the Liverpool Dockers "nuclear option".

If they are going to do that, though, that would require the "order for a fleet replacement and long-term rail replacement bus" option also to be taken. It's not as easy as Southern where "right, DOO tomorrow" was an option as all the fleet was capable of it and the drivers had agreed it.

 

[Puffing Devil]

They don't need to do that, they could just sack all the guards for gross misconduct as they have now been on strike long enough that protections no longer apply - basically the Liverpool Dockers "nuclear option".

If they are going to do that, though, that would require the "order for a fleet replacement and long-term rail replacement bus" option also to be taken. It's not as easy as Southern where "right, DOO tomorrow" was an option as all the fleet was capable of it and the drivers had agreed it.

Not knowing all the intricacies.... I'm assuming a second person could be recruited now replace the guard role and to close the doors on all stock that required it and a cut-over to full DOO made fleet by fleet as new stock came in. Subject to driver agreement.