Arriva Rail North DOO

[B&I]

It would be ridiculous in the extreme not to consider Metrolink's operating model when considering how Manchester's urban "S-Bahn" services should be staffed (e.g. things like the Hadfields).

Remind me, which operation requires an operating subsidy again?

Which operation consists of a low speed, low capacity toy tramway operating under light rail legislation in an urban area og nearly 3 million people, and which doesn't ? That is an apples and oranges argument

 

[northwichcat]

Or the DfT and its tame monkeys could stop pushing the whole de-staffing programme. Were customers informed of that option ? The survey strikes me as rather meaningless otherwise

Yet there is no de-staffing program on Northern. The survey asked real questions based on facts, not speculation based on what the RMT fear for post-2025 or a presumption that what happened on Southern will happen on Northern, despite the franchise terms being very different.

 

[LowLevel]

It is truly comic how, while some on here argue (credibly) that guards could be better deployed on revenue duties than doing the doors, others seem.determined to cut staffing costs at all (ahem) costs, whilst blithely unconcerned about the direct effect this will have on revenue collection (and the indirect effect it will have on the attractiveness of rail travel to other passengers).

If the RMT want to win hearts and minds on this issue, I'd suggest shutting down their own counterproductive PR team, and instead publicising some of the arguments that certain posters use on here for getting rid if the guards.

I'm just bemused at how I manage to find things to fill my day at work given all we do is ride in the back cab and occasionally wander through selling the odd ticket while delaying the doors

The latest 'never happens' in our neck of the woods is guards being very much involved in detecting and dealing with 2 train fires promptly, within a fortnight, ironically one of which was spotted by a guard who was quite legitimately in the back cab of another passing train having been missed by the driver.

A large number of guards also collaborated to have an industrial scale sex offender arrested on a suburban route and he's now awaiting trial in Crown Court.

We can't quote facts and numbers because as ever it's qualitative but still we keep plodding on.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd agree that the RMT its frequently its own worst enemy. That doesn't however excuse the shear dearth of logic applied by some on here. I've ended up far more sympathetic to the guards than I previously was, after seeing the sort of arguments being put forward for getting rid of them.

The RMT have brought this on themselves. Passengers who would have backed a second member of staff on all services without exception are backing exceptions now mainly due to how much they've suffered due to the RMT strikes. Passengers want a visible staff presence so the RMT could have got the majority on their side, instead they have an ever decreasing minority on their side due to striking at stage 1 of the dispute and escalating the strike action.

 

[B&I]

Of course you can equally argue that the key problem is the RMT 'stranglehold', not the DfT at all.......

Perhaps if a proper, professional, modern, union was representing the guards then you wouldn't have had a crowd of dinosaurs conning their members into believing the dispute was ever much more than a means to keep membership numbers up.

Or in other words, what's wrong with provoking a strike in order to break a union, regardless of its effect on passengers ?

 

[B&I]

The RMT have brought this on themselves. Passengers who would have backed a second member of staff on all services without exception are backing exceptions now mainly due to how much they've suffered due to the RMT strikes. Passengers want a visible staff presence so the RMT could have got the majority on their side, instead they have an ever decreasing minority on their side due to striking at stage 1 of the dispute and escalating the strike action.

You could have just written 'yes, the survey was meaningless' and left it at that. You're saying that the DfT's determination to get rid of guards and / or break the RMT has nothing at all to do with the situation we're in ?

 

[Robertj21a]

Or in other words, what's wrong with provoking a strike in order to break a union, regardless of its effect on passengers ?

What do you consider provoked the strikes ? (the very original reason).

 

[B&I]

What do you consider provoked the strikes ? (the very original reason).

The DfT taking steps to begin eliminating guards from Northern services ? You may consider that justified, but it's hard to say it's not the actual trigger

 

[Carlisle]

You're saying that the DfT's determination to get rid of guards and / or break the RMT has nothing at all to do with the situation we're in ?

There’s wasn’t a plot to break the RMT, there was an attempt to get some meaningful negotiations and movement from them on working practices they’d all ready agreed as safe over 36 years ago.

 

[northwichcat]

You could have just written 'yes, the survey was meaningless' and left it at that. You're saying that the DfT's determination to get rid of guards and / or break the RMT has nothing at all to do with the situation we're in ?

No it wasn't. There is now proof that when the RMT say passengers support them they are only referring to 5% of passengers. It would be less misleading to say Tatton constituents want Esther McVey to resign as a MP - more than 5% of constituents would support that, even though it's likely 50% would re-elect her.

 

[northwichcat]

The DfT taking steps to begin eliminating guards from Northern services ? You may consider that justified, but it's hard to say it's not the actual trigger

Let's remember the RMT are going to all TOCs on day 1 of the franchise and asking for a guarantee of all existing services with guards will retain guards and also that all newly introduced services will get guards for the entire duration of the franchise, if they don't get an immediate yes they immediately start balloting on strike action. They even balloted Northern guards on potential DOO before the franchise started, until they found out that as old Northern had no plans to introduce DOO any strike action would be illegal and they were close to telling their members to do something that could have led to them being dismissed for gross misconduct (going on an illegal strike) - proving how utterly useless they are as a trade union.

I think it was Tony Miles who said they've referred to Northern Rail on occasions when giving notices to strikes, which if Arriva wanted to be pedantic could say is invalid and they expect all guards to be at work for Arriva Rail North on the specified dates.

 

[Starmill]

Which operation consists of a low speed, low capacity toy tramway operating under light rail legislation in an urban area og nearly 3 million people, and which doesn't ? That is an apples and oranges argument

Toy tramway? Last year, Metrolink carried 42 million passengers, the most out of any UK Light Railway except for the DLR, there was 9% growth in passenger numbers and 11% growth in revenue. Plainly this outperformed Northern significantly and is hardly a toy...

As for low-capacity and low-speed, Metrolink routes offer greater capacity and a similar top speed to the Hadfield line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which operation consists of a low speed, low capacity toy tramway operating under light rail legislation in an urban area og nearly 3 million people, and which doesn't ? That is an apples and oranges argument

I think when you compare any of the North West's network with, say, the network around London, most of it, the WCML excepted, is a "low capacity toy tramway".

FWIW the original build was very much on the cheap - but Metrolink now is very much not, and is certainly a European model "Stadtbahn" worthy of any such city.

 

[B&I]

There’s wasn’t a plot to break the RMT, there was an attempt to get some meaningful negotiations and movement from them on working practices they’d all ready agreed as safe over 36 years ago.

Bit silly of Peter Wilkinson to say the union needed to be broken then, wasn't it ? Somebody should have made sure he was on-message

 

[B&I]

No it wasn't. There is now proof that when the RMT say passengers support them they are only referring to 5% of passengers. It would be less misleading to say Tatton constituents want Esther McVey to resign as a MP - more than 5% of constituents would support that, even though it's likely 50% would re-elect her.

Asking people whether they want a guard when they are being tpld that the lack of guard is preventing their train running is obvioualy going to produce that answer. If respondents had had the option of an operating railway with a guard on the train, the answer might have been different.

McVey by the way receives 28,764 votes out of an electorate of 65,200. Why speculate when you can look these things up ?

 

[B&I]

Toy tramway? Last year, Metrolink carried 42 million passengers, the most out of any UK Light Railway except for the DLR, there was 9% growth in passenger numbers and 11% growth in revenue. Plainly this outperformed Northern significantly and is hardly a toy...

As for low-capacity and low-speed, Metrolink routes offer greater capacity and a similar top speed to the Hadfield line.

But, peculiarly dear to the hearts of certain GM residents as it may be (it would I suppose be painful to admit how little investment the conurbation has received on public transport), it isn't a heavy railway, and is therefore completely irrelevant to the DOO debate.

 

[northwichcat]

Bit silly of Peter Wilkinson to say the union needed to be broken then, wasn't it ? Somebody should have made sure he was on-message

It was at an event organised by a Tory in an area served by Southern when they were strikes going on at Southern. He later said he got carried away and apologised, a bit like Labour MP Laura Smith calling for the entire country to walk out in protest at Tory austerity at the Labour Party conference, only for Labour to clarify that she got carried away and Labour do not support that.

 

[northwichcat]

Asking people whether they want a guard when they are being tpld that the lack of guard is preventing their train running is obvioualy going to produce that answer. If respondents had had the option of an operating railway with a guard on the train, the answer might have been different.

No. There were no questions which stated or implied the reason for no services on Saturdays was down to guards striking. Passengers were asked if they wanted a guaranteed second member of staff on board and many responded saying "No, as I want my train to run even when the guards go on strike" or something a lot less polite than that!

McVey by the way receives 28,764 votes out of an electorate of 65,200. Why speculate when you can look these things up ?

How many people voted for McVey bears no relation to how many want her to resign. Some who voted for her might want her to stand down, while some who voted for other candidates might want her to remain until the next election.

 

[scrapy]

Regarding the passenger survey that is being quoted.

Who commissioned it?
On what dates and at which locations was the research carried out?
What is the sample size?
Where are the results published?

 

[CN75]

The DfT civil servants have stated they want to break the stranglehold of RMT on the industry. DfT Director of Passenger Services (a civil servant who is supposed to be impartial) said in 2016 that the rail unions opposition 'had to be broken.

It is not a matter of a good versus evil in the DfT’s eyes - they simply want the best railway for the best price for the customers. The Northern franchise is the best ever since privatistion in terms of investment, but there is a modernisation requirement on Northern on how some trains are operated too.

I have lived in Germany, and whilst what you say is correct they do not have the same levels of anti social behaviour and outright criminality on the network as we have here.

If you want doo then fine - good for you. But don't even think of throwing hissyfits when the levels of violence and alike rocket. Because I will say this - my priority is the train and it's safe operation. What happens on the cushions is not my concern until the train stops.

Then I will ring the police and wait until they arrive. I'm too good looking and long in the tooth to go sorting out the mess in the saloon.

Some guards argue that the trains are too unsafe to move out of cabs when it is dark or late at night for their own personal safety. It’s one reason sometimes given (another being safety is the only priority) for not checking tickets or doing much to help customers when it’s less appealing, even though that is when guards could really prove their worth. The RMT are well known for threatening industrial action as a response to management of various TOCs attempting to improve guard standards. It’s presumably another appealing reason for the DfT insuring TOCs against losses from any industrial action.

As trains get longer or formed up of sets without corridors already, the passengers’ chances against a pervading crimewave are as bad now as they would be without guards sat in the back cab looking out of the window and refusing to check tickets after sunset. Station staffing and CCTV would be a much better use of money if the expenditure on guards was being justified for passenger security, as shown by the crime levels on DOO services.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the passenger survey that is being quoted.

Who commissioned it?
On what dates and at which locations was the research carried out?
What is the sample size?
Where are the results published?

No-one's had time to do proper analysis on the results yet but it's a 4 figure number done by volunteer passengers fed up with the current situation, carried out at stations on lines in to Manchester and also at Manchester Piccadilly, with the intention of building on what Transport Focus did in their recent passenger survey on the strikes. It also included asking people in Northern uniforms and included asking people boarding at stations with varying staffing levels from no staff to staffing 24/7. Both RMT and ASLEF members responded - one or two of the latter made clear they had 100% confidence that their union won't agree to any unsafe methods of working trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it isn't a heavy railway, and is therefore completely irrelevant to the DOO debate.

Totally false. It is completely relevant.

 

[Robertj21a]

Bit silly of Peter Wilkinson to say the union needed to be broken then, wasn't it ? Somebody should have made sure he was on-message

I think everyone accepts that it was a daft, totally stupid, thing for him to say. However, as others often highlight, his comments only came *after* the RMT had started their hostilities.

Even with the benefit of hindsight (and knowing that some on here will mis-read whatever I write......), I suppose that it's not really all that surprising that he made comments about the RMT needing to be 'broken'. As has been very evident since those fateful words, the RMT is indeed a union with prehistoric tendencies and a general lack of understanding of the 'real' outside world. Their belief appears to be that common sense and co-operation with management are things that must be avoided at all times.

If the government/DfT/TOCs were dealing with a co-operative, modern-thinking, pragmatic, union who truly considered the long term future of their members then you would, most probably, be seeing a fundamentally different situation at the present time. Unfortunately, those glorious times are still many months/years away or, more accurately, have now been lost forever.

 

[pt_mad]

It is not a matter of a good versus evil in the DfT’s eyes - they simply want the best railway for the best price for the customers. The Northern franchise is the best ever since privatistion in terms of investment, but there is a modernisation requirement on Northern on how some trains are operated too.



Some guards argue that the trains are too unsafe to move out of cabs when it is dark or late at night for their own personal safety. It’s one reason sometimes given (another being safety is the only priority) for not checking tickets or doing much to help customers when it’s less appealing, even though that is when guards could really prove their worth. The RMT are well known for threatening industrial action as a response to management of various TOCs attempting to improve guard standards. It’s presumably another appealing reason for the DfT insuring TOCs against losses from any industrial action.

As trains get longer or formed up of sets without corridors already, the passengers’ chances against a pervading crimewave are as bad now as they would be without guards sat in the back cab looking out of the window and refusing to check tickets after sunset. Station staffing and CCTV would be a much better use of money if the expenditure on guards was being justified for passenger security, as shown by the crime levels on DOO services.

What worries me about the whole scenario, is the potential perceived threat of de-skilling across a wide number of staff.

The government was mentioned as wanting the best railway for the best price, i.e. value, and that's understandable in many ways. But at the same time it's this government who talk about skilling up our population for skilled jobs. If Brexit goes through there is talk of more of a high skills based migration system. So people are going to need to be able to compete with their skills.

If we put ourselves in the mindset of a guard at one of these franchises where their grade or skillset may be threatened, would you in today's climate really want to consent voluntarily to being (what many perceive as) downgraded to an OBS?

Watching news and politics there's a lot of politicians and business people saying skilled jobs, skilled work, people having the skills they need to prosper etc etc etc. Who'd want to give up their safety critical skills and accreditation in this climate? At least without a huge resistance?

Some will argue that they will keep their wage, until at least middle of next decade. Fine. But will they keep their skillset? And it's not just about job credit within the railway. If these people decide to compete for jobs elsewhere in other industries, I'm sure safety critical skills where they are in charge of the train will stand them in better stead than non safety customer service skills alone.

Guards probably consider themselves skilled workers as things stand, given the time it takes to train up as one. And other industries would probably view them as skilled workers should they apply for jobs. Strathclyde style ticket checkers, customer hosts etc I'm not sure would be seen in the same way in the wider competition for jobs as someone in charge of the train and it's safety would be seen.

 

[B&I]

What worries me about the whole scenario, is the potential perceived threat of de-skilling across a wide number of staff.

The government was mentioned as wanting the best railway for the best price, i.e. value, and that's understandable in many ways. But at the same time it's this government who talk about skilling up our population for skilled jobs. If Brexit goes through there is talk of more of a high skills based migration system. So people are going to need to be able to compete with their skills.

If we put ourselves in the mindset of a guard at one of these franchises where their grade or skillset may be threatened, would you in today's climate really want to consent voluntarily to being (what many perceive as) downgraded to an OBS?

Watching news and politics there's a lot of politicians and business people saying skilled jobs, skilled work, people having the skills they need to prosper etc etc etc. Who'd want to give up their safety critical skills and accreditation in this climate? At least without a huge resistance?

Some will argue that they will keep their wage, until at least middle of next decade. Fine. But will they keep their skillset? And it's not just about job credit within the railway. If these people decide to compete for jobs elsewhere in other industries, I'm sure safety critical skills where they are in charge of the train will stand them in better stead than non safety customer service skills alone.

Guards probably consider themselves skilled workers as things stand, given the time it takes to train up as one. And other industries would probably view them as skilled workers should they apply for jobs. Strathclyde style ticket checkers, customer hosts etc I'm not sure would be seen in the same way in the wider competition for jobs as someone in charge of the train and it's safety would be seen.

The difficulty is that all the highfallutin rhetoric about a high skills workforce is undermined by the appalling quality of education and vocational training, and the continued drive to reduce as mich of the workforce as possible to low paid casual status

 

[B&I]

It was at an event organised by a Tory in an area served by Southern when they were strikes going on at Southern. He later said he got carried away and apologised, a bit like Labour MP Laura Smith calling for the entire country to walk out in protest at Tory austerity at the Labour Party conference, only for Labour to clarify that she got carried away and Labour do not support that.

'He got carried away'. Something that politically neutral, scrupulously fair civil servants are well-known for doing. Also what the hell was a civil servant doing at a political meeting ?

Can't you just admit that, just maybe, there might be ulterior motives behind the DfT / government's actions, at least some of the time, and perhaps they don't always have passsngers' best interests uppermost in their minds ? Your defence of DOO and everyone associated with it is starting to remind me of how uppity Brexsbytarians get when anyone criticises Farage, Banks or any of their other heroes.

 

[B&I]

No. There were no questions which stated or implied the reason for no services on Saturdays was down to guards striking. Passengers were asked if they wanted a guaranteed second member of staff on board and many responded saying "No, as I want my train to run even when the guards go on strike" or something a lot less polite than that!

Exactly. Their responses were conditioned by the ongoing strike. If they were told that it was possivle to have a guard aboard the train and no strikes, how would they have responded ?

How many people voted for McVey bears no relation to how many want her to resign. Some who voted for her might want her to stand down, while some who voted for other candidates might want her to remain until the next election.

I struggle to understand the relevance of this to the issue of DOO on Northern, and some people get very upset indeed if this thread goes off topic, so I'd better not respond further.

 

[B&I]

I think everyone accepts that it was a daft, totally stupid, thing for him to say. However, as others often highlight, his comments only came *after* the RMT had started their hostilities.

Even with the benefit of hindsight (and knowing that some on here will mis-read whatever I write......), I suppose that it's not really all that surprising that he made comments about the RMT needing to be 'broken'. As has been very evident since those fateful words, the RMT is indeed a union with prehistoric tendencies and a general lack of understanding of the 'real' outside world. Their belief appears to be that common sense and co-operation with management are things that must be avoided at all times.

If the government/DfT/TOCs were dealing with a co-operative, modern-thinking, pragmatic, union who truly considered the long term future of their members then you would, most probably, be seeing a fundamentally different situation at the present time. Unfortunately, those glorious times are still many months/years away or, more accurately, have now been lost forever.

Again, you could have saved a lot of time by writing 'everything's the RMT's fault, the DfT are great, vote Tory'.

 

[Robertj21a]

Again, you could have saved a lot of time by writing 'everything's the RMT's fault, the DfT are great, vote Tory'.

Not at all sure how you could read that into it !. My point was to try to consider how things might have been if the RMT had been less of a dinosaur. I'm not sure that the DfT, or politics at all really, are much to do with the way in which the RMT decides to run their union.

 

[Carlisle]

'
Can't you just admit that, just maybe, there might be ulterior motives behind the DfT / government's actions, at least some of the time, and perhaps they don't always have passsngers' best interests uppermost in their minds ? Y.

Evolving technologies throughout the railways existence have always delivered products and systems eg traction, signalling, p way equipment, information and communication methods etc that are less labour intensive than the previous generations were, as in many other walks of life