Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[03_179]

But the track ‘points the wrong way’ - it would need a reversal.

Thanks, Wasn't aware of that ... Seems a waste of a bit of line that could be used in an area of regeneration.

 

[brad465]

Gillingham Docks area has a lot of new and recent housing built.

Maybe the old freight line to Gillingham dock (the track is in situ) could be utilised and a new station built?

But the track ‘points the wrong way’ - it would need a reversal.

According to Google maps it's also only around 0.7 miles form the branch end to the main station on foot, around 15 minutes walking time (see image attached), so for those residents it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Indeed - certainly not worth the effort of providing a third rail, a new station and upgrading the stub.

Also worth noting most bus traffic around there would go to Chatham not Gillingham anyway - and Chatham is naturally the busiest of the five Medway stations.

 

[Andy25]

Today, if there is no new announcements of the franchisor.

In February?　Why?

No idea why Feb but that's when we're being told to expect to find out.

 

[frediculous]

Indeed - certainly not worth the effort of providing a third rail, a new station and upgrading the stub.

Also worth noting most bus traffic around there would go to Chatham not Gillingham anyway - and Chatham is naturally the busiest of the five Medway stations.

Would be of far more use as a lit cycle path than currently as a disused and overgrown railway line.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Been pondering about this for a while as I live in the SouthEastern area. The trouble is, there are loads of things I'd love to see in the new franchise, but they almost all require the Government to pay for new infrastructure, which is almost certainly not going to happen. Top of my list would be a standard 10-minute interval frequency on all the main metro lines, and having all metro services stop at Lewisham (obviously, except for the ones that don't go anywhere near Lewisham), but that probably requires a £-multi-billion rebuild of the station and lines around it.

Perhaps less unrealistically (though still unlikely) ... Is there any more capacity on HS1? From the times I've travelled to East Kent, I get the strong impression that most passengers between East Kent and London now prefer to use HS1, despite the premium fares on it. And I suspect that, if it wasn't for the premium fares, almost noone would be using the classic lines for those longer journeys to/from London. That makes me think that reducing or removing the HS1 premium and having almost everything east of Faversham/Ashford run via HS1 might be a good move for making rail more attractive to people in that area. But could HS1 support that? If it was possible, that would then presumably free up some capacity to run more semi-fast trains to Ashford/Gillingham/etc. on the classic lines.

To provide direct links between East Kent and Tonbridge/etc. You could perhaps also run a fast train Margate-Dover-Ashford-Tonbridge-Redhill (maybe continuing to Victoria or Brighton or somewhere).

 

[yorksrob]

Been pondering about this for a while as I live in the SouthEastern area. The trouble is, there are loads of things I'd love to see in the new franchise, but they almost all require the Government to pay for new infrastructure, which is almost certainly not going to happen. Top of my list would be a standard 10-minute interval frequency on all the main metro lines, and having all metro services stop at Lewisham (obviously, except for the ones that don't go anywhere near Lewisham), but that probably requires a £-multi-billion rebuild of the station and lines around it.

Perhaps less unrealistically (though still unlikely) ... Is there any more capacity on HS1? From the times I've travelled to East Kent, I get the strong impression that most passengers between East Kent and London now prefer to use HS1, despite the premium fares on it. And I suspect that, if it wasn't for the premium fares, almost noone would be using the classic lines for those longer journeys to/from London. That makes me think that reducing or removing the HS1 premium and having almost everything east of Faversham/Ashford run via HS1 might be a good move for making rail more attractive to people in that area. But could HS1 support that? If it was possible, that would then presumably free up some capacity to run more semi-fast trains to Ashford/Gillingham/etc. on the classic lines.

To provide direct links between East Kent and Tonbridge/etc. You could perhaps also run a fast train Margate-Dover-Ashford-Tonbridge-Redhill (maybe continuing to Victoria or Brighton or somewhere).

The reason so few people are inclined to use the classic lines west of Ashford is the large time penalty imposed on all such services since HS1 opened.

If regular trains with traditional express timings are reintroduced (as some suggest may happen), I expect these will be popular. One only has to consider how well sited Waterloo/Charing Cross are for various things.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Express trains will be coming in with that new franchise; I believe the calling patterns are Charing Cross, Waterloo East, London Bridge, Sevenoaks, Tonbridge, Paddock Wood, Ashford. The 'slow' trains will then call at Orpington, creating direct journeys from Ashford and beyond to Orpington which I suspect will be very useful for off-peak journeys.

Peak express trains are also mandated; however they are London Bridge, Paddock Wood, Ashford; although as part of TSR2 and in tandem with the Hastings and Tunbridge Wells trains some/all may also need to stop at Tonbridge. Not sure what sort of journey times are being aimed for here but a half-hourly express from either Charing Cross or Cannon Street (most likely the former) will be quite good I suspect and even if the train is slightly slower on the way to Tonbridge due to the Metro traffic density, the sheer thought of getting a seat on a 12 car and it barely stopping will probably cause a slight shift back onto classic. This is probably only being done with the view to freeing up capacity on HS1 so as more people move down to Kent and commute they can use that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The reason so few people are inclined to use the classic lines west of Ashford is the large time penalty imposed on all such services since HS1 opened.

If regular trains with traditional express timings are reintroduced (as some suggest may happen), I expect these will be popular. One only has to consider how well sited Waterloo/Charing Cross are for various things.

I have to admit I'm a bit dubious about that argument. As an example, to take the first significant destination beyond Ashford: Folkestone Central. The journey time to London via HS1 is slightly under an hour, which is very obviously commutable (albeit a bit unpleasant if you have a tube journey as well). Via the classic lines it's currently 1 hr 40-50 minutes to Charing Cross. Unfortunately I can't find any pre-HS2 timetables, but if you reasonably say that the new fast trains will knock 15 minutes off that, that's still not looking very commutable for any but the most hardy (although possibly OK for day-trippers). For London Bridge the figures would look better, but only if you work within very close walking distance of London Bridge. I would imagine the vast majority of commuters are heading either for the Oxford Circus/Tottenham Court Road area, or the Bank area, or the Canary Wharf area, and all those require some onward travel, no matter which London terminus you arrive at (except Cannon Street for Bank). Consider too that HS1 stops at Stratford International, which (awkwardness of swapping to Stratford main aside) means you can get to Canary Wharf without even going into central London at all.

I don't doubt that there will be a few people working right next to London Bridge or Waterloo, for whom faster classic trains would be better, but as a proportion of all commuters, those are going to be very small numbers. I'd therefore suggest that most people still using the classic lines from destinations east of Ashford are probably doing so mainly because of the fares differential, and that will be true even after re-introduction of the fast trains.

And there is another side to that: By running both HS1 and classic trains from places like Folkestone, Margate and Canterbury, it means that the direct commutable, fast trains, to London only run every hour, which itself is not very attractive. That's I'm speculating that, if you could get rid of the HS1 premium fares, then making those trains more frequent at the expense of a change at Ashford being usually required for destinations like Sevenoaks and London Bridge would benefit the vast majority at the expense of a small minority of passengers - and so would be better overall.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to admit I'm a bit dubious about that argument. As an example, to take the first significant destination beyond Ashford: Folkestone Central. The journey time to London via HS1 is slightly under an hour, which is very obviously commutable (albeit a bit unpleasant if you have a tube journey as well). Via the classic lines it's currently 1 hr 40-50 minutes to Charing Cross. Unfortunately I can't find any pre-HS2 timetables, but if you reasonably say that the new fast trains will knock 15 minutes off that, that's still not looking very commutable for any but the most hardy (although possibly OK for day-trippers). For London Bridge the figures would look better, but only if you work within very close walking distance of London Bridge. I would imagine the vast majority of commuters are heading either for the Oxford Circus/Tottenham Court Road area, or the Bank area, or the Canary Wharf area, and all those require some onward travel, no matter which London terminus you arrive at (except Cannon Street for Bank). Consider too that HS1 stops at Stratford International, which (awkwardness of swapping to Stratford main aside) means you can get to Canary Wharf without even going into central London at all.

I don't doubt that there will be a few people working right next to London Bridge or Waterloo, for whom faster classic trains would be better, but as a proportion of all commuters, those are going to be very small numbers. I'd therefore suggest that most people still using the classic lines from destinations east of Ashford are probably doing so mainly because of the fares differential, and that will be true even after re-introduction of the fast trains.

And there is another side to that: By running both HS1 and classic trains from places like Folkestone, Margate and Canterbury, it means that the direct commutable, fast trains, to London only run every hour, which itself is not very attractive. That's I'm speculating that, if you could get rid of the HS1 premium fares, then making those trains more frequent at the expense of a change at Ashford being usually required for destinations like Sevenoaks and London Bridge would benefit the vast majority at the expense of a small minority of passengers - and so would be better overall.

To give you some idea, I recently timed a non stop train between Ashford and Tonbridge at 23 minutes. I understand that when this was a regular service, it was around an hour to Charing Cross, so a fast train could knock a lot more than 15 mins off Folkestone -London. That is pretty competitive if you want to get to that side of town.

We have both classic and HS trains between Ashford and Ramsgate/Folkestone now, and there aren't any plans to change that, so to my mind, it would make more sense to run the classic ones fast to London to make them a reasonable proposition as well.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

To give you some idea, I recently timed a non stop train between Ashford and Tonbridge at 23 minutes. I understand that when this was a regular service, it was around an hour to Charing Cross, so a fast train could knock a lot more than 15 mins off Folkestone -London. That is pretty competitive if you want to get to that side of town.

Ummm, on the current timetable, Ashford-Tonbridge is 35 minutes stopping everywhere, so on your figures, running fast only saves 12 minutes. You could probably shave a few minutes more by running fast Folkestone Central-Ashford, but then those intermediate stations need a service somehow. Tonbridge to Charing Cross is 45 minutes stopping only at Sevenoaks, London Bridge and Waterloo, so I don't see any way that you can get a commutable hour Folkestone-Charing Cross. Obviously you can get about an hour 7 minutes Ashford-Charing Cross, but unless you work right next to London Bridge or at a pinch Waterloo/CHX, that's massively unfavourable compared to HS2's 36-38 minutes to St Pancras

 

[yorksrob]

Ummm, on the current timetable, Ashford-Tonbridge is 35 minutes stopping everywhere, so on your figures, running fast only saves 12 minutes. You could probably shave a few minutes more by running fast Folkestone Central-Ashford, but then those intermediate stations need a service somehow. Tonbridge to Charing Cross is 45 minutes stopping only at Sevenoaks, London Bridge and Waterloo, so I don't see any way that you can get a commutable hour Folkestone-Charing Cross. Obviously you can get about an hour 7 minutes Ashford-Charing Cross, but unless you work right next to London Bridge or at a pinch Waterloo/CHX, that's massively unfavourable compared to HS2's 36-38 minutes to St Pancras

Well, an hour, 7 minutes seems a reasonable time to get from Ashford to London (speaking as someone who's either lived in, or travelled to Ashford all my life). Put it this way, getting from the train door at St P, then through the tube to anywhere beyond a few stops can soak up that twenty five saved minutes easily. Charing Cross is very walkable to most of the West End.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well, an hour, 7 minutes seems a reasonable time to get from Ashford to London (speaking as someone who's either lived in, or travelled to Ashford all my life). Put it this way, getting from the train door at St P, then through the tube to anywhere beyond a few stops can soak up that twenty five saved minutes easily. Charing Cross is very walkable to most of the West End.

It may well be reasonable (though personally I'd choose 38 minutes + short tube ride over 67 minutes + walk) almost any time if it wasn't for the fares premium. But I don't see that's really relevant to my suggestion, since I suggested that almost all services EAST of Ashford should run via HS2 (if capacity allows). Obviously that means that Ashford itself would retain direct services to Charing Cross - although you could quibble about whether any of those would be fast.

 

[yorksrob]

It may well be reasonable (though personally I'd choose 38 minutes + short tube ride over 67 minutes + walk) almost any time if it wasn't for the fares premium. But I don't see that's really relevant to my suggestion, since I suggested that almost all services EAST of Ashford should run via HS2 (if capacity allows). Obviously that means that Ashford itself would retain direct services to Charing Cross - although you could quibble about whether any of those would be fast.

Well, you see I'd rather have a fastish option to Waterloo and the West End, rather than lots of fast trains - all of them dropping me in St Pancras, which is on the Northern edge of central London. That is useful in many circumstances, but I would like the choice - and I would expect so too would those East of Ashford.

Given the main line nature of the routes, I'm sure you could have three trains an hour from Folkestone and Canterbury West, joining at Ashford, with two to St Pancras and one to Charing Cross.

 

[JamesRowden]

Ummm, on the current timetable, Ashford-Tonbridge is 35 minutes stopping everywhere, so on your figures, running fast only saves 12 minutes. You could probably shave a few minutes more by running fast Folkestone Central-Ashford, but then those intermediate stations need a service somehow. Tonbridge to Charing Cross is 45 minutes stopping only at Sevenoaks, London Bridge and Waterloo, so I don't see any way that you can get a commutable hour Folkestone-Charing Cross. Obviously you can get about an hour 7 minutes Ashford-Charing Cross, but that's massively unfavourable compared to HS2.

I think that all 4tph of the required off-peak service between Charing Cross and Ashford via Tonbridge should call at Orpington considering that:

• HS1 offers a faster route between Central London and East Kent
• The population of South East London
• There's only capacity for a half hourly stopping service between Orpington and Sevenoaks

Well, an hour, 7 minutes seems a reasonable time to get from Ashford to London (speaking as someone who's either lived in, or travelled to Ashford all my life). Put it this way, getting from the train door at St P, then through the tube to anywhere beyond a few stops can soak up that twenty five saved minutes easily. Charing Cross is very walkable to most of the West End.

Ashford International to Charing Cross is only 53 minutes via HS1/Victoria/Bakerloo. You're not going to match that via Tonbridge. Might as well provide South East London (areas with metro services to Orpington) with a better service to East Kent instead. An Orpington call only adds two minutes to an Ashford-Tonbridge-London service.

 

[yorksrob]

Ashford International to Charing Cross is only 53 minutes via HS1/Victoria/Bakerloo. You're not going to match that via Tonbridge. Might as well provide South East London (areas with metro services to Orpington) with a better service to East Kent instead. An Orpington call only adds two minutes to an Ashford-Tonbridge-London service.

From my travels on the tube, I find that a highly optimistic timing. I don't know who came up with it, however I rarely find negotiating the tube that Quick.

I understand that Orpington is an important population centre, but I don't understand why it needs four trains an hour to Ashford ?

 

[JamesRowden]

From my travels on the tube, I find that a highly optimistic timing. I don't know who came up with it, however I rarely find negotiating the tube that Quick.

I understand that Orpington is an important population centre, but I don't understand why it needs four trains an hour to Ashford ?

Would you rather have a train every 30 minutes which takes 60 minutes, or a train every 10/20 minutes where the faster 2tph take 50 minutes and the slower take the same 60 minutes?

 

[yorksrob]

Would you rather have a train every 30 minutes which takes 60 minutes, or a train every 10/20 minutes where the faster 2tph take 50 minutes and the slower take the same 60 minutes?

Obviously, from a personal point of view, I'd prefer as frequent service as possible. But that has to be balanced with the wider needs of the network. As a regular traveller to Ashford, I'f rather have a fast train from the South side of London somewhere in the mix. But you must understand that the service at my local station is hourly, so to me, any where with half-hourly isn't doing too bad.

You have two stoppers from Sevenoaks calling at Orpington, plus two from Ashford. Why do you need both fasts from Ashford to stop there as well ? (one should be enough to provide through opportunities to the seaside).

 

[JamesRowden]

Obviously, from a personal point of view, I'd prefer as frequent service as possible. But that has to be balanced with the wider needs of the network. As a regular traveller to Ashford, I'f rather have a fast train from the South side of London somewhere in the mix. But you must understand that the service at my local station is hourly, so to me, any where with half-hourly isn't doing too bad.

You have two stoppers from Sevenoaks calling at Orpington, plus two from Ashford. Why do you need both fasts from Ashford to stop there as well ? (one should be enough to provide through opportunities to the seaside).

It only adds 2 minutes to the journey time, it is by the far the fastest route between South East London and East Kent, it is not the fastest route between Central London and East Kent, and all of the Hastings services will be running non-stop between Tonbridge and London Bridge.

 

[yorksrob]

It only adds 2 minutes to the journey time, it is by the far the fastest route between South East London and East Kent, it is not the fastest route between Central London and East Kent, and all of the Hastings services will be running non-stop between Tonbridge and London Bridge.

I would have thought that for connectivity purposes to South East London, it would be better to have a fast from East Kent and one from Hastings. SE Londoners might like a trip to the Sussex coast occasionally.

 

[JamesRowden]

I would have thought that for connectivity purposes to South East London, it would be better to have a fast from East Kent and one from Hastings. SE Londoners might like a trip to the Sussex coast occasionally.

Unlike the East Kent services, the slower Hastings service will still be significantly faster than any other service to/from Central London for the entirety of its route that half of the hour. Only 12 minutes slower than the fast service.

Your suggestion also would break the service specification of an every 10/20 minutes (or more evenly distributed) service pattern between London and Tunbridge Wells.

 

[yorksrob]

Unlike the East Kent services, the slower Hastings service will still be significantly faster than any other service to/from Central London for the entirety of its route that half of the hour. Only 12 minutes slower than the fast service.

Your suggestion also would break the service specification of an every 10/20 minutes (or more evenly distributed) service pattern between London and Tunbridge Wells.

If the slower train is fast enough for Hastings, then that's fine.

I still don't think Orpington needs both fast trains to the Kent coast to stop there.

 

[JamesRowden]

If the slower train is fast enough for Hastings, then that's fine.

I still don't think Orpington needs both fast trains to the Kent coast to stop there.

We will see what the DfT and bidders conclude after the franchise is awarded (the specification states that at least 4tph of the Ashford / Tunbridge Wells services must call at Orpington, so doesn't exclude the option of stopping all 6tph at Orpington).

 

[JamesRowden]

Another option is having a 4tph semi-fast service between Ashford and Charing Cross:

• 2tph Faster west of Tonbridge
• 2tph Faster east of Tonbridge

This would provide the fastest services to Central London from the stations between Tonbridge and Ashford, and provide fast journeys between Orpington and East Kent.

 

[yorksrob]

We will see what the DfT and bidders conclude after the franchise is awarded (the specification states that at least 4tph of the Ashford / Tunbridge Wells services must call at Orpington, so doesn't exclude the option of stopping all 6tph at Orpington).

Indeed. It doesn't exclude a fast London - Ashford either.

 

[JamesRowden]

Indeed. It doesn't exclude a fast London - Ashford either.

HS1 is a fast London - Ashford, but I assume you mean via Tonbridge.

I think that the fact that the Southeastern franchise operates the HS1 services means that the additional cost and unreliability of running more than 4tph of services between Charing Cross and Ashford via Tonbridge (if even practical outside the peak where trains are timetabled slower to maximise capacity) would make such a move loss making. The DfT / national debt would effectively need to pay for it, and if the DfT were willing it would probably be in the franchise requirements in the first place.

The Southeastern franchise will be competing with the car for South East London to East Kent journeys, meaning that stopping 4tph of off-peak East Kent services at Orpington could well be profit making.

 

[yorksrob]

HS1 is a fast London - Ashford, but I assume you mean via Tonbridge.

Yes I did

I think that the fact that the Southeastern franchise operates the HS1 services means that the additional cost and reliability of running more than 4tph of services between Charing Cross and Ashford via Tonbridge (if even practical outside the peak where trains are timetabled slower to maximise capacity) would make such a move loss making. The DfT / national debt would effectively need to pay for it, and if the DfT were willing it would probably be in the franchise requirements in the first place.

The Southeastern franchise will be competing with the car for South East London to East Kent journeys, meaning that stopping 4tph of off-peak East Kent services at Orpington could well be profit making.

I doubt that is the case, but we shall have to wait and see.

 

[telstarbox]

The population density around Orpington isn't massive though.

 

[JamesRowden]

The population density around Orpington isn't massive though.

I was thinking about connections at Orpington, but you made me realise that Bromley South and Swanley serve a significant amount of that demand with services via Maidstone East and Chatham. So therefore there isn't as much of a benefit to stopping more East Kent services at Orpington as I initially thought.

It explains why the Hastings services presently stop at Orpington and the East Kent services don't.

 

[cav1975]

Gillingham Docks area has a lot of new and recent housing built.

Maybe the old freight line to Gillingham dock (the track is in situ) could be utilised and a new station built?

Could use a class 139 Parry People Mover.