Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[4-SUB 4732]

Perhaps, if that is the case I am not sure what they could do other than making the conductors day concerned longer. It is just strange not calling at the last 4 stops to Ramsgate seeing as it goes that way anyway.

On a similar note, a few months ago for a number of nights, a late night service ran non stop from Ashford to Ramsgate but via Dover instead of the quicker route via Canterbury.

This is booked. The trains go non-stop round the Coast due to overnight engineering work Mon - Thu on the Canterbury West route. The Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines get a similar proposition.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Here's one from left field.

How about a regular service from Ashford to Lydd Town (for airport).

The infrastructure is already there, and they could draft in some soon to be deposed 144's from the North.

Never even heard of that place before??

How about a Kent to Gatwick service? Surely this would help a lot of people in Kent

 

[NorthKent1989]

Then since Abbey Wood is the major destination then surely there has to be trains routes via the NK line then, both slow and semi fast

And as for axing Lewisham trains from the NK line that’s ridiculous, Lewisham is a useful interchange for trains to other parts of South London and different terminals like Victoria, you cannot seriously expect the 54 bus to replace the useful link between Woolwich & Lewisham?

6tph isn’t a bad deal, however if the inner stations do go 8tph then there has to be 2 extra tph for services further out to bring the line up to 10tph to balance out the needs of Medway/Gravesend users and inner SE London users

Best case scenario is to reroute Thameslink via Lewisham (since CX will most likely be axed anyway) and have 8tph via Greenwich.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Never even heard of that place before??

How about a Kent to Gatwick service? Surely this would help a lot of people in Kent

Conflicting movements at Redhill and the previous hourly Tunbridge Wells - Three Bridges / Horsham had next to no passengers across the axis Tonbridge - Gatwick. Simply improve the service to half-hourly from Tonbridge (decent connections off of the Dover, Ramsgate, Canterbury and Hastings trains) to Redhill and then have good connections in turn.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Then since Abbey Wood is the major destination then surely there has to be trains routes via the NK line then, both slow and semi fast

And as for axing Lewisham trains from the NK line that’s ridiculous, Lewisham is a useful interchange for trains to other parts of South London and different terminals like Victoria, you cannot seriously expect the 54 bus to replace the useful link between Woolwich & Lewisham?

6tph isn’t a bad deal, however if the inner stations do go 8tph then there has to be 2 extra tph for services further out to bring the line up to 10tph to balance out the needs of Medway/Gravesend users and inner SE London users

Best case scenario is to reroute Thameslink via Lewisham (since CX will most likely be axed anyway) and have 8tph via Greenwich.

Incorrect.

When Crossrail opens, a simple and regular 15-minutely service from Dartford to Abbey Wood for connections to the likes of the Docklands, the East (Shoreditch etc), the City, the West End and Heathrow will resolve most of these issues. Who needs to go to Lewisham, and what is their end game? Example: from Greenhithe to Victoria (no longer needs a service to Lewisham to connect as there is a direct service). From Slade Green and Erith to Peckham (change at Abbey Wood and Whitechapel). From Plumstead to Green Park (change at London Bridge instead of Lewisham and Victoria).

The only extremely small reason to go to Lewisham therefore becomes to go to the likes of Hayes, Catford, Orpington. Realistically, changing at London Bridge will provide more trains (many don't stop at Lewisham) or using local buses (they go from Deptford to Hither Green, Greenwich to Catford / Bellingham / New Cross / Peckham, Maze Hill to New Cross / Blackheath, Woolwich to Mottingham / St Mary Cray / Orpington / Beckenham Hill / Beckenham Jn / Elmers End / Ladywell / Crofton Park / Forest Hill etc.) will be worthwhile.

If you need Lewisham, just go to Greenwich and get the DLR. A 7-8 minutely service connecting with 5-10 minutely DLR is still better overall for certainty and speed than waiting round for a half-hourly direct train that's no longer turn up and go.

The only lip-service would need to be to a peak service. If you are going to route the Javelins off the Medway towns, Faversham (etc) to St Pancras with a 4tph frequency (much better) and need the Maidstone West to Abbey Wood train then the best-case scenario is an 8-car Metro train with SDO (see TSR2 requirements in the new franchise) that simply does Maidstone West, Snodland, Strood, Higham, Gravesend, Dartford, Abbey Wood, Woolwich Arsenal, Charlton, Blackheath, Lewisham, New Cross, London Bridge and Cannon Street; giving a direct train that people so massively need (apparently!) from Woolwich and Charlton to Lewisham as well as providing auxiliary capacity from Blackheath and Lewisham into London. Maidstone passengers will not sit on this comparatively slow train as they'll all be off at Abbey Wood and go to the likes of the Docklands, City and West End quickly; so it will empty out at Abbey Wood and create new capacity on the London end.

Lewisham to Victoria is hardly something the people of Erith, Plumstead and Woolwich actually care about when Crossrail will be vastly, vastly quicker. Assume Erith > Abbey Wood 6 mins; max 5 minute peak wait to Bond Street and Tottenham Court Road. Most people going to Victoria are not finishing their journey there: It's a useful staging post to go to Green Park and further West; Crossrail will take you to the likes of Tottenham Court Road (for Oxford Circus and Notting Hill), Bond Street (for Green Park, Baker Street and Westminster) and Paddington (for Earls Court, Fulham and Hammersmith) as well as going to the likes of Heathrow Airport.

I appreciate your viewpoint is not that of someone who has worked in the industry and knows passenger behaviour well but a service between Woolwich / Charlton and Blackheath / Lewisham is next to useless. Less than 1% of the passengers on the routes concerned probably need that train. This talk of the supposedly influential Charlton user group who want direct trains to Charing Cross are equally irrelevant. They should be told to bore off and change at London Bridge like normal people...!

 

[yorksrob]

Never even heard of that place before??

How about a Kent to Gatwick service? Surely this would help a lot of people in Kent

It had a passenger service from Appledore until 1967.

I like the idea of better services between Tonbridge and Redhill, however I avoid it now as it always seems to be the first line down the pan when there's trouble (the rail replacement bus for the route seems to take around two hours, or something ridiculous). It's strictly railtours only on that line for me now!

 

[bionic]

It had a passenger service from Appledore until 1967.

I like the idea of better services between Tonbridge and Redhill, however I avoid it now as it always seems to be the first line down the pan when there's trouble (the rail replacement bus for the route seems to take around two hours, or something ridiculous). It's strictly railtours only on that line for me now!

Tonbridge to Redhill could be made far better use of than it currently is. Many people don't touch it because the service is so bad and it isn't timed to connect well with anything useful. Punters from Gatwick to Tonbridge can easily spend up to an hour hanging around at Redhill. Now they've remodelled Redhill it doesn't even go through to London in the day.

London Overground transformed the ELL when they started running south of New Cross Gate. It wouldn't involve the same numbers but decent connections via the Tonbridge to Redhill line could see a significant increase in passenger interest.

 

[RichJF]

Tonbridge to Redhill could be made far better use of than it currently is. Many people don't touch it because the service is so bad and it isn't timed to connect well with anything useful. Punters from Gatwick to Tonbridge can easily spend up to an hour hanging around at Redhill. Now they've remodelled Redhill it doesn't even go through to London in the day.

London Overground transformed the ELL when they started running south of New Cross Gate. It wouldn't involve the same numbers but decent connections via the Tonbridge to Redhill line could see a significant increase in passenger interest.

I used to live near Nutfield and regularly went to either Salfords or Redhill the service was so bad on the line. I keep pushing for the Maidstone West/Strood service to be extend through to Redhill/Gatwick which wouldn't be a massive change.

 

[ScotGG]

It's almost mid November. Is there a specific date it is supposed to be announced?

 

[KingJ]

Here's one from left field.

How about a regular service from Ashford to Lydd Town (for airport).

The infrastructure is already there, and they could draft in some soon to be deposed 144's from the North.

Lydd (Town) to Airport would still be a road transfer, at which point you may as well just run the road transfer from Ashford instead of running a train service as well. However, given the rather derelict state of the station building (and that was many years ago, i've no idea what it's like today!) if you were to rebuild with the intent of serving airport traffic, you may as well build a bit closer. Overall though I don't think there's the traffic to justify it at all, definitely not currently and I would remain doubtful it would attract much more even if it did expand.

On the other hand, I do wonder if there would be sufficient commuter traffic for a peak-only Lydd (Town) - Ashford shuttle service. Although Lydd isn't massive, I do wonder if the demand would be there especially if railheading from New Romney and Lydd-on-Sea was taken in to account.


On a separate note, it looks like the franchise (news) discussion topic has been merged in to the franchise (speculation and ideas) topic. Took me a while to find where it had disappeared to!

 

[yorksrob]

On the other hand, I do wonder if there would be sufficient commuter traffic for a peak-only Lydd (Town) - Ashford shuttle service. Although Lydd isn't massive, I do wonder if the demand would be there especially if railheading from New Romney and Lydd-on-Sea was taken in to account.

It would certainly be interesting to try. Potential Speller act reopening ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Lydd (Town) to Airport would still be a road transfer, at which point you may as well just run the road transfer from Ashford instead of running a train service as well. However, given the rather derelict state of the station building (and that was many years ago, i've no idea what it's like today!) if you were to rebuild with the intent of serving airport traffic, you may as well build a bit closer. Overall though I don't think there's the traffic to justify it at all, definitely not currently and I would remain doubtful it would attract much more even if it did expand.

According to Wikipedia:

Airlines and destinations[edit]
As of November 2018, there are no more scheduled services after the only operator, LyddAir ceased its sole route to Le Touquet.

So I'd say you're right, there wouldn't currently be enough (any?) demand to go to the airport by rail!

On the other hand, I do wonder if there would be sufficient commuter traffic for a peak-only Lydd (Town) - Ashford shuttle service. Although Lydd isn't massive, I do wonder if the demand would be there especially if railheading from New Romney and Lydd-on-Sea was taken in to account.

Again, looking at Wikipedia:

The future reuse of the station as a "rail transport interchange" has been written into Shepway District Local Plan which safeguards the route against development prejudicial to the reopening of the line from Appledore to the public.[8] Although reopening of the line to passengers has been mooted from time to time - particularly with regard to improving public access to Lydd Airport[9] - the plans have never materialised. One obstacle in the way of reopening is the 13 level crossings and occupational farm crossings between Appledore and Lydd, which would have to be converted to automatic full-barrier crossings with obstacle detection. Furthermore, neither the line through Lydd nor the Ashford to Hastings line is electrified, requiring passengers to change at Ashford International to diesel railcars.[10]

That suggests a fair bit of work, and the population of Lydd - about 6000 - isn't that great. It's possible, but I would hazard a guess that not that many people in Lydd currently make that commute anyway. To add to the obstacles, a peak hour only service is intrinsically going to be unattractive to people wondering what happens if they miss their train or people who need a bit of flexibility. Probably if you did open it, people would adapt, more commuters would take advantage by moving to Lydd, so traffic would slowly build up - but it would take a while. If you could somehow link to New Romney and the heritage railway, then you'd pick up a fair bit of tourist traffic, but that's an order of magnitude more investment, probably requiring a new section of railway. I would imagine there are plenty of other places on the SE network where the same investment would give much greater returns.

 

[yorksrob]

According to Wikipedia:



So I'd say you're right, there wouldn't currently be enough (any?) demand to go to the airport by rail!

On the other hand, I do wonder if there would be sufficient commuter traffic for a peak-only Lydd (Town) - Ashford shuttle service. Although Lydd isn't massive, I do wonder if the demand would be there especially if railheading from New Romney and Lydd-on-Sea was taken in to account.

Again, looking at Wikipedia:



That suggests a fair bit of work, and the population of Lydd - about 6000 - isn't that great. It's possible, but I would hazard a guess that not that many people in Lydd currently make that commute anyway. To add to the obstacles, a peak hour only service is intrinsically going to be unattractive to people wondering what happens if they miss their train or people who need a bit of flexibility. Probably if you did open it, people would adapt, more commuters would take advantage by moving to Lydd, so traffic would slowly build up - but it would take a while. If you could somehow link to New Romney and the heritage railway, then you'd pick up a fair bit of tourist traffic, but that's an order of magnitude more investment, probably requiring a new section of railway. I would imagine there are plenty of other places on the SE network where the same investment would give much greater returns.

Or one could call it a "tram train", in which case all the level crossings become miraculously "safe".

The route doesn't have much in the way of signalling (except the approach to Appledore Junction), so line of sight driving might be an option. With the exception of the crossing of the A259 (which already has wig/wags), the roads crossed are all extremely minor.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There is work undergoing to make the terminal and runway ready for bigger and more aircraft. In theory it’s exceptonally well-sited for road traffic from the likes of Ashford, Dover, Canterbury, Hastings and even Faversham, Maidstone and Thanet.

It would be nice to see it succeed as an airport. Anything that takes traffic away from Gatwick and Stansted would be great!

 

[Javelin700]

It's mid November, shouldn't the dft be making an announcement on the franchise operater soon?

 

[ScotGG]

Indeed that's what I asked a few days ago. Rumours have swirled of another delays but others have denied. I'd love to know what's happening. I expect a poor franchise given the lack of bidders (and issues with each one) and thought they might bury it beneath Brexit issues.

 

[Andy25]

It's mid November, shouldn't the dft be making an announcement on the franchise operater soon?

Currently being told it will be nearer Feb before a winner is announced

 

[Javelin700]

Oh OK, that's a really short amount of time before the new franchise is scheduled to begin, unless the dft are planning on giving govia another short extension to the existing contract.

 

[Andy25]

Oh OK, that's a really short amount of time before the new franchise is scheduled to begin, unless the dft are planning on giving govia another short extension to the existing contract.

If you look at how quickly the gov took on the east coast they seem to be able to get started quite quickly. And I'm sure pre-planning goes on behind the scenes.

Obviously major changes are planned to be phased in, and orders placed for new rolling stock etc.

 

[Javelin700]

If you look at how quickly the gov took on the east coast they seem to be able to get started quite quickly. And I'm sure pre-planning goes on behind the scenes.

Obviously major changes are planned to be phased in, and orders placed for new rolling stock etc.

Yeah I suppose you have a point there, I just thought the timing was a bit short given that normally when the dft announce a new franchise winner, its about 4 or 5 months before the new franchise is scheduled to begin.

 

[brad465]

I was recently reading some of the Class 319 storage thread and it was noted that Southeastern wouldn't have been able to take them on as, in spite of a rolling stock shortage, there would be nowhere to store them. Based on this would the new franchise winner be planning to build new siding/depot spaces somewhere for any new and/or cascaded rolling stock? I can't see where new builds would fit in terms of land space and accessibility for staff, so expanding existing spaces, or if it were feasible to take over some freight yard space (e.g. Tonbridge West Yard or Hither Green) may have to be explored.

 

[ScotGG]

Plumstead alone could see 4-6 track sidings built north of the existing 3 track sidings. Crossrail have now finished with the land and their permanent 11 track sidings is nearing completion just to the east freeing up a chunk of land.

Not huge but easy enough to do it seems - its already NR land and will be vacant very soon.

EDIT: I had a google and the land footprint is big enough for 10 new tracks i'd say for 12 car. Easily.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...0x260eae2ec8a63001!8m2!3d51.484807!4d0.087142

 

[brad465]

Yes that would be a good shout, as long as housing developers don't bribe them into selling it (if that's even a thing for them).

I also think the Ashford area has potential if more mainline stock was needed and/or moved out of inner London storage, where old sidings west of the station, that used to store old slam door stock, were empty when I passed them last month, and could be renovated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or one could call it a "tram train", in which case all the level crossings become miraculously "safe".

Because a tram can stop in the distance it can see to be clear, using things like track brakes and being much lighter than a train and driven on sight. Not just "because".

 

[Javelin700]

I heard that there are plans for a new maintenance facility to be located at Hoo junction.

 

[ScotGG]

Plumstead site can't really be used for anything else besides more sidings - certainly not housing. It has industrial to one side, sidings to another including electricity sub station for third rail and elevated sewer to the other. Its inaccessible to the public really. Even given very lax rules for housing location now homes would be difficult to be approved.

 

[brad465]

I heard that there are plans for a new maintenance facility to be located at Hoo junction.

There maybe potential in the North Yard area and/or expanding the site northward, but the southern yard normally looks pretty full of freight stock to make it seem redundant enough to change purpose. One does wonder how much the construction traffic will be hated, given not a million miles away the Lower Thames Crossing is expected to be built

 

[Japan0913]

Currently being told it will be nearer Feb before a winner is announced

Today, if there is no new announcements of the franchisor.

In February?　Why?

 

[03_179]

Gillingham Docks area has a lot of new and recent housing built.

Maybe the old freight line to Gillingham dock (the track is in situ) could be utilised and a new station built?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

But the track ‘points the wrong way’ - it would need a reversal.