Your suggestions for the next Southeastern franchise

[87015]

Agreed - especially in the darker blue - and when NSE imposed a "proper" carriage washing regime. We digress however.

Out of interest, what was said wash regime? It’s 48 hours in some current operators contracts.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thameslink services, if there is an utter insistence on running towards Dartford via any of the three lines, should use 12 car 700s.

The option exists for them to be lengthened, and everywhere is good for them (even Dockyard, if you use the ASDO beacons).

If they want to keep them 8 car, send them via Longfield.

Connectivity is no good if it’s a tiny train that’s packed and people can’t get on it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Out of interest, what was said wash regime? It’s 48 hours in some current operators contracts.

Now you are asking - long time ago - from memory a daily wash and a 28 day heavy clean - including a "proper" ceiling and surfaces wipe down (apart from the obvious turn round and sweep out)

I used to ring the Control at Watford for the overnight "Metro" wash report - at say 2205 , by unit number , (to be on my desk at 0830) to make sure that the 313's were properly done - was hated for that , but it certainly got the sets cleaner. BY - to be far - did the washing without any grief.....

 

[NorthKent1989]

They manage it in the peaks. Albeit, it's 2tph Blackfriars - Beckenham Jun. Maybe that should be all day?

I think this could be possible, although you wouldn’t get the perfect “train every ten mins” format due to all the fasts, it would still be a much needed upgrade to 6tph.

I would also like for the Hayes line to be 6tph, maybe a CX to Beckenham Junction service would help

Beckenham Junction could have this sort of service

London Bridge Southern: 2tph (Mon to Sat)

Victoria to Orpington: 4tph everyday

Victoria to Maidstone/Ashford: 2tph

Charing Cross service via Ladywell: 2tph

This gives Beckenham Jnc a boost up to 10tph and a variety of routes

A Blackfriars or Victoria to Kent House service at 2tph would bolster the inner stations to 6tph

 

[LLivery]

Possibly something to do with Cutty Sark station being much more conveniently located for most tourists? (although with slower journey times from central London). And more generally, there are numerous other stations pretty close to Greenwich, so someone living as little as a quarter of a mile from Greenwich station may find it more convenient to use a different station to get to Central London: That's not the case at Earlsfield, which therefore would have a wider catchment area than Greenwich.

Realistically, once you get to a train every 10 minutes, I would suspect that additional services would have very little impact on generating demand - how many people would refuse to use the train because they might have to wait 10 minutes for the next one? So conversely, it doesn't really make sense to argue that a 10 minute frequency would be suppressing demand significantly - unless of course trains are so packed that you either can't get on them or journeys are extremely uncomfortable. And from when I've travelled on that line, off-peak that's nowhere near the case in Greenwich (peak might be another matter).

All fair points. Cutty Sark is very busy but I'm not sure if it's just as a result of closeness. Tourists often normally aren't given a rail & tube map of London, just a tube map making rail connections hardly used by them. Even the Visit London website, quite disgracefully, ignores London's non TfL rail services in the map section while promoting attractions across the NR network.

I think this could be possible, although you wouldn’t get the perfect “train every ten mins” format due to all the fasts, it would still be a much needed upgrade to 6tph.

I would also like for the Hayes line to be 6tph, maybe a CX to Beckenham Junction service would help

Beckenham Junction could have this sort of service

London Bridge Southern: 2tph (Mon to Sat)

Victoria to Orpington: 4tph everyday

Victoria to Maidstone/Ashford: 2tph

Charing Cross service via Ladywell: 2tph

This gives Beckenham Jnc a boost up to 10tph and a variety of routes

A Blackfriars or Victoria to Kent House service at 2tph would bolster the inner stations to 6tph

Can services actually turn around at Kent House?

 

[david737]

Can services actually turn around at Kent House?[/QUOTE]
Yes they can from the London direction but have to go into plat 2 (up main) which means whilst its sitting there up trains will have to go via the loop (plat 1).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Can services actually turn around at Kent House?

Yes they can from the London direction but have to go into plat 2 (up main) which means whilst its sitting there up trains will have to go via the loop (plat 1).[/QUOTE]

Which admittedly is not a heavy time penalty.

 

[ComUtoR]

Which admittedly is not a heavy time penalty.

Fast services will need to brake from 60mph down a rather big gradient. You get checked down with the signals and will then need to accelerate out through a 40mph till your train cleared and accelerate back up to 60mph. Any service behind is penalized because of the signalling from Shortlands

I'd be interested to know how much time loss would be planned for that move. It's slower with a stopper as you don't get stepped up till your in the platform and can pull away from Beck Jn on a single yellow and you creep into the loop and back out. Its also really crap in poor weather you you come out tentatively.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

That's a good point they definitely are really comfortable!

The seats are comfortable, yes...if you seek out the priority seats with the little bit extra legroom, if you're 6ft+ the standard airplane layout seats don't provide the seat pitch and you end up with your knees around your armpits, very much a case of squeezing an extra row of seats when profit was more important than passenger comfort

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but it seems a little insane buying new high speed bi mode units when British Rail/Network SouthEast were planning to electrify the Marshlink line by 1995. Why can’t the third rail just be extended from Ore to Ashford nowadays?

Plus, any scope of running the pre-2009 timetable again and having fast services from Charing Cross to Margate/Ramsgate again?

 

[brad465]

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but it seems a little insane buying new high speed bi mode units when British Rail/Network SouthEast were planning to electrify the Marshlink line by 1995. Why can’t the third rail just be extended from Ore to Ashford nowadays?

I agree with you in some respects, but for several reasons it's not possible/the way to go about it. There maybe legislation, or at least official railway upgrade procedures, that don't permit new 3rd rail installations anyway, with low power power potential, maintenance expense and Health & Safety [gone mad] among reasons.

I do think though, electrified or not, that line could do with upgrades to speed, redoubling and rolling stock capacity, as has inevitably been discussed in years gone by.

Plus, any scope of running the pre-2009 timetable again and having fast services from Charing Cross to Margate/Ramsgate again?

I've seen documents in the past proposing more services doing this, whether the joys of that time return in full maybe a long shot.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not sure if I’m missing something but it seems a little insane buying new high speed bi mode units when British Rail/Network SouthEast were planning to electrify the Marshlink line by 1995. Why can’t the third rail just be extended from Ore to Ashford nowadays?

Plus, any scope of running the pre-2009 timetable again and having fast services from Charing Cross to Margate/Ramsgate again?

You're not missing something. 21st century lunacy is the reason.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sorry for the random post I’m about to post but I Had a nice surprise earlier, after some flat hunting in Greenwich my partner and I got on a train to London Bridge and it skipped Deptford, presumably due to the leaf fall timetable, made me long for the good old days when the semi fasts used to run via Greenwich hope to see the return of such a service one day.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Sorry for the random post I’m about to post but I Had a nice surprise earlier, after some flat hunting in Greenwich my partner and I got on a train to London Bridge and it skipped Deptford, presumably due to the leaf fall timetable, made me long for the good old days when the semi fasts used to run via Greenwich hope to see the return of such a service one day.

If your priority is a train not stopping at Deptford, you need some new priorities!

 

[NorthKent1989]

If your priority is a train not stopping at Deptford, you need some new priorities!

I was only saying how it brought back memories of the old fast service that used to run, I’ve always stated that Deptford now needs more trains and yes I do believe the fasts are needed but further out......

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I was only saying how it brought back memories of the old fast service that used to run, I’ve always stated that Deptford now needs more trains and yes I do believe the fasts are needed but further out......

I’m glad you aren’t in charge of the procurement / train service specification of the new franchise...

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m glad you aren’t in charge of the procurement / train service specification of the new franchise...

Thank god that is only a speculative thread then, since most of our ideas on here are just that: fantasy!

 

[Barn]

Sorry for the random post I’m about to post but I Had a nice surprise earlier, after some flat hunting in Greenwich my partner and I got on a train to London Bridge and it skipped Deptford, presumably due to the leaf fall timetable, made me long for the good old days when the semi fasts used to run via Greenwich hope to see the return of such a service one day.

You do have quite a romantic attachment to semi-fasts, which was somewhat understandable when you lived in North Kent but something you will need to shake off as a Londoner!

 

[NorthKent1989]

You do have quite a romantic attachment to semi-fasts, which was somewhat understandable when you lived in North Kent but something you will need to shake off as a Londoner!

Oh of course, I was after all a Sydenham lad for many years, Greenwich does have the luxury of great transport links plus being 7 mins away from London Bridge is
Useful, still I can’t quite shake off my Medway links just yet

My post was more nostalgia based then anything else

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m hoping to join the Greenwich line users group

 

[yorksrob]

Here's one from left field.

How about a regular service from Ashford to Lydd Town (for airport).

The infrastructure is already there, and they could draft in some soon to be deposed 144's from the North.

 

[bionic]

Crossrail to Grain

 

[brad465]

Here's one from left field.

How about a regular service from Ashford to Lydd Town (for airport).

The infrastructure is already there, and they could draft in some soon to be deposed 144's from the North.

I'm sure the planned expansion would make a need for it for sure if it gets more flights than already there. However, I would like to think we should have seen the back of any Pacers by the time the expansion is complete and effects operational (without going into that field of discussion), so would hope by the time such an idea would happen some other DMUs could be cascaded instead

 

[yorksrob]

I'm sure the planned expansion would make a need for it for sure if it gets more flights than already there. However, I would like to think we should have seen the back of any Pacers by the time the expansion is complete and effects operational (without going into that field of discussion), so would hope by the time such an idea would happen some other DMUs could be cascaded instead

Well, my first preference would of course be thumpers, but they've not been around for a while !

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Lydd is an interesting proposition. Huge work will be needed to get the branch up to scratch and even create a situation whereby flasks can be loaded. This is the sort of thing where a battery unit would work very nicely.

When the Southeastern consultation came out my suggestion was some form of 387-esque unit that would be able to work with the 375s; working on express Charing Cross - Ashford services and portion working to Hastings via Rye (375s to Dover / Canterbury / Ramsgate) instead of over-heavy bi-mode units on HS1 and massive conflicting moves across the entire layout.

Indeed, I actually said the Dover service (with the Hastings portions) should be half-hourly to Charing Cross as an Express; and the Canterbury route should be half-hourly to St Pancras during off-peak. With a suitable connection (e.g. 15 minutes either way) between the routes it wouldn’t make life overly difficult.

 

[BluePenguin]

Lydd is an interesting proposition. Huge work will be needed to get the branch up to scratch and even create a situation whereby flasks can be loaded. This is the sort of thing where a battery unit would work very nicely.

When the Southeastern consultation came out my suggestion was some form of 387-esque unit that would be able to work with the 375s; working on express Charing Cross - Ashford services and portion working to Hastings via Rye (375s to Dover / Canterbury / Ramsgate) instead of over-heavy bi-mode units on HS1 and massive conflicting moves across the entire layout.

Indeed, I actually said the Dover service (with the Hastings portions) should be half-hourly to Charing Cross as an Express; and the Canterbury route should be half-hourly to St Pancras during off-peak. With a suitable connection (e.g. 15 minutes either way) between the routes it wouldn’t make life overly difficult.

Hmm that is an interesting idea, it could work. It would certainly be helpful for people to get to stations in Sussex as well as restoring the heavily missed fast service to Ashford and beyond. I completely agree with your idea but would like the Dover service to be re-extended to Ramsgate. Off peak it sucks to have to get off at Dover or Ashford if you don't want St Pancras.

It is particularly terribly annoying how the last service from Charing Cross late at night terminates at Dover Priory, waits there for a short while before speeding through Deal and Sandwich to Ramsgate when it could have stopped another 4 times en route seeing as though it is going to Ramsgate anyway. I have complained to Southeastern about this repeatedly.

 

[BluePenguin]

I was only saying how it brought back memories of the old fast service that used to run, I’ve always stated that Deptford now needs more trains and yes I do believe the fasts are needed but further out......

I agree with you, fast services for the win!

I’m glad you aren’t in charge of the procurement / train service specification of the new franchise...

Why is that? Do you live in Deptford and so object to a reduction in servicing calling at your station? Greenwich is more interesting than Deptford and has more boarding and alighting from what I have seen off peak.

You do have quite a romantic attachment to semi-fasts, which was somewhat understandable when you lived in North Kent but something you will need to shake off as a Londoner!

Who doesn't though? When you live in East or North Kent, every minute is significant. Londoners have very frequent services and shorter journey times compared to the rest of us further out and can also wake up much later in the morning. It is selfish to want to have as many services as possible calling in suburbia at the detriment of services meant to serve people further out. Mind you, its understandable that as capacity constraints get worse that service levels will need to increase somehow.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Hmm that is an interesting idea, it could work. It would certainly be helpful for people to get to stations in Sussex as well as restoring the heavily missed fast service to Ashford and beyond. I completely agree with your idea but would like the Dover service to be re-extended to Ramsgate. Off peak it sucks to have to get off at Dover or Ashford if you don't want St Pancras.

It is particularly terribly annoying how the last service from Charing Cross late at night terminates at Dover Priory, waits there for a short while before speeding through to Deal and Sandwich to Ramsgate when it could have stopped another 4 times en route seeing as though it goes to Ramsgate anyway. I have complained to Southeastern about this repeatedly.

The only thing about that latter paragraph is that if the Conductor is at Dover and has finished for the day and the driver is at Ramsgate and the unit goes straight to depot avoiding the station?

 

[BluePenguin]

The only thing about that latter paragraph is that if the Conductor is at Dover and has finished for the day and the driver is at Ramsgate and the unit goes straight to depot avoiding the station?

Perhaps, if that is the case I am not sure what they could do other than making the conductors day concerned longer. It is just strange not calling at the last 4 stops to Ramsgate seeing as it goes that way anyway.

On a similar note, a few months ago for a number of nights, a late night service ran non stop from Ashford to Ramsgate but via Dover instead of the quicker route via Canterbury. This service also could have stopped at the stations on route.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I agree with you, fast services for the win!

Why is that? Do you live in Deptford and so object to a reduction in servicing calling at your station? Greenwich is more interesting than Deptford and has more boarding and alighting from what I have seen off peak.

Who doesn't though? When you live in East or North Kent, every minute is significant. Londoners have very frequent services and shorter journey times compared to the rest of us further out and can also wake up much later in the morning. It is selfish to want to have as many services as possible calling in suburbia at the detriment of services meant to serve people further out. Mind you, its understandable that as capacity constraints get worse that service levels will need to increase somehow.

Most services from Greenwich, if not stopping at Deptford, had a minute or two of slack stuffed in before North Kent East anyway and stopped at the junction. Realistically the North Kent (explicitly the Greenwich between North Kent East and Charlton and then the North Kent) needs a regular, reliable service pattern. 7-8 minutely, all stops via Greenwich to Slade Green. 4 to Dartford, 2 to Barnehurst, 2 to Sidcup.

It is of extremely little benefit to anyone to have services that don’t stop at some stations. Customers these days don’t want to have to second-guess where their train is stopping in the evening peak and I don’t blame them - there’s no need for fast trains.

Any point between Stone Crossing and Strood (also towards Rainham) that ‘needs a direct service’ or a ‘semi-fast service’ could easily achieve it other ways. This notion that everyone wants to go to Greenwich is nonsensical: it’s the same for Woolwich. The priority now is Abbey Wood and Abbey Wood alone as getting people to change their habits and stop going to Greenwich for the Docklands and clogging up the DLR is crucial.

If people seriously need to go to Lewisham (which they can’t now anyway from Medway), they could change at Dartford or you could simply seek to extend certain trains back. This new non-stop New Eltham to London Bridge is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen at off-peak times and it’s no wonder Sidcup Line trains are empty. It’s the most lightly-used of the 3 routes and the Bexleyheath line is the one with the highest ‘mean average’ boarding figures per station at over 2,000,000 per station from Blackheath to Barnehurst.

As all Bexleyheath line trains have to go via Lewisham and as Sidcup Line trains can present towards Lewisham with relative ease, it will be nice to see something like (off-peak, at least):
- 2tph Victoria to Gravesend via Lewisham and Sidcup
- 2tph Cannon Street to Crayford via Lewisham and Sidcup
- 2tph Charing Cross to Gillingham via Lewisham and Bexleyheath
- 2tph Charing Cross to Gravesend via Lewisham and Bexleyheath

No idea what you’d do with Thameslink. Scrap the poxy thing perhaps?