Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to work fine on GTR (Southern) and SWR.

 

[Gems]

Seems to work fine on GTR (Southern) and SWR.

Sure it does. Although it does say it relies on the driver positioning the train correctly, that could be interesting.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Read this a while ago about SDO & Automatic SDO.

https://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/12/being-selective/

 

[Wychwood93]

Been a few who have tripped up on the Northern employees facebook page. Emotions can run away with people.

Interesting article today on the Northern internal site about platform extensions and ASD operation. Been trying to read between the lines of it all. ASD (Automatic selective door operation) is something I have not really come across. Sounds a very complex system, how reliable is it?

Down here in the land of malachite green etc. - Christchurch - it works fine. The guard and station auto p.a have, as yet, been faultless. Once the passengers get used to it they know where to stand to get a seat - for 10-car sets from Christchurch on the up go to the country end by the banner repeater (I forget the signal number). As many of you are aware there are certain stations where 'huddles' form - up peak PAX from Winchester are highly skilled. Whether they will get a seat for their 5k (?) p.a is another matter - a quick check sees an annual standard London Terminals ticket at £5128, £6008 for Zones 1-6. A basic First class is £8716 and £10168 including Zones 1-6! Sorry for the off-topic last bits re. fares - eye-watering, depends on who pays.

 

[Carlisle]

Does woodmally live in Kensington, then?

Nought’ud surprise me on this forum.

 

[muz379]

Common Sense: I don't think the RMT has any since they been striking against summat Northern can't do much about, why has it taken them almost 3 years to realize this?

I know the poster was blunt but they do have a point. Northern have agreed a franchise agreement. This agreement requires them to implement DOO. If they dont they are in breach of the agreement. So striking with an organisation that cannot change their view legally wont work. Northern cannot back down over this. The biggest problem is with Labour. If Corbyn and the party were fully behind the conductors they could lobby Parliament and the DFT to get the agreement changed. Yet as I stated previously there is no united front when it comes to Labour and Corbyn himself apart from the odd tweet has done nothing.

There is something Northern can do about it . They can go back to the DFT and say that whatever was agreed in the franchise is unworkable , we dont know what has actually been agreed with regards DCO because the information about it is redacted . There are rumours floating around that Ariva have actually agreed to DCO on all but 2 routes. So lets get over this misinformation that Northern can not do anything to avoid this dispute .

Of course we could discuss the reasons why Northern should or should not do as above , we could discuss how the DFT will and should respond to that , and i suspect we probably will find some point where there is disagreement among many of us. But its wrong to say that the franchise holder can do nothing and must blindly implement everything in the franchise . There have already been failures to meet committed obligations .

The franchise agreement does not say that the subsidy should rise to £282 million but it has . Arriva have approached the DFT to discuss the subsidy through the rest of the franchise. Thus proving that this idea that the franchise agreement is set in stone and is testament to what will happen is false . Franchise requirements are often not met and can be renegotiated .

The point is well made about the political pressure that needs to be in place and I believe this is something that is being worked on by the RMT . But I dont think that this political interest and thus pressure could be grown much without the disruption of the industrial action .

 

[td97]

Would like to say @Gems, even though I am in support of DCO/DOO in certain circumstances for Northern, I don't feel you come across as a 'hardliner' or RMT basher. It's good to have a range of views and promote discussion on the thread, from all sides including the views of you as a guard.

 

[Gems]

Would like to say @Gems, even though I am in support of DCO/DOO in certain circumstances for Northern, I don't feel you come across as a 'hardliner' or RMT basher. It's good to have a range of views and promote discussion on the thread, from all sides including the views of you as a guard.

My first post on here I made it clear that there is so much about the RMT I do not agree or like. I also made it clear I blame some of Mick Cash's generals for this. I have stories I could tell, but it would be way off topic. I am what you could call a 'floating voter' when it comes to the unions, but I have also seen a hell of a lot of good come from unions.

I have also made it clear that if the DFT would just butt out, agreements could be reached. We are not fools.

Hardened RMT. You have no idea. I'm a realist, and I see the reality.

 

[Elecman]

I think until either Wilkinson leaves orvthere is a radical change of government then therecwill be no butting out by DfT

 

[OxtedSignaller]

There is something Northern can do about it . They can go back to the DFT and say that whatever was agreed in the franchise is unworkable , we dont know what has actually been agreed with regards DCO because the information about it is redacted . There are rumours floating around that Ariva have actually agreed to DCO on all but 2 routes. So lets get over this misinformation that Northern can not do anything to avoid this dispute .

Of course we could discuss the reasons why Northern should or should not do as above , we could discuss how the DFT will and should respond to that , and i suspect we probably will find some point where there is disagreement among many of us. But its wrong to say that the franchise holder can do nothing and must blindly implement everything in the franchise . There have already been failures to meet committed obligations .

The franchise agreement does not say that the subsidy should rise to £282 million but it has . Arriva have approached the DFT to discuss the subsidy through the rest of the franchise. Thus proving that this idea that the franchise agreement is set in stone and is testament to what will happen is false . Franchise requirements are often not met and can be renegotiated .

The point is well made about the political pressure that needs to be in place and I believe this is something that is being worked on by the RMT . But I dont think that this political interest and thus pressure could be grown much without the disruption of the industrial action .

Having the routes cleared for DOO and having the rolling stock to operate DOO are two separate things... I would imagine yes they clear the majority of routes in case the new stock or a follow on order is used to operate over it like on the Southern coast if 377 stock is used the train reverts to DCO even with the conductor on board yet when it's a 313 the Conductor works the train.

 

[Carlisle]

Abellio aren't as anti-DCO as you make out. In fact, what was the last franchise Abellio have run where they didn't try to introduce some form of DCO?

A cynic might suggest it was merely an effective tool aimed at ensuring their bids reached the top of the pile, fully aware in many cases the politicians weren’t going have the stomach to actually see it through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Was there ever even any suggestion of DOO on the previous Northern franchise which was Abellio (in part)? I don't think there was.

As for other Abellio franchises, the 350s are not kitted out for it (and because of the flat bodyside profile it might not be possible to fit cameras without being out of gauge, though that said 700s have flat bodyside profiles and cameras), but I wouldn't bet against it being mooted when the Aventras show up.

 

[northwichcat]

Was there ever even any suggestion of DOO on the previous Northern franchise which was Abellio (in part)? I don't think there was.

DOO came up when the tram-train trial started be talked about, which coincided with class 180s arriving on a short term basis which were set up for driver releasing, which I'm sure led to a RMT ballot. The 180s ended up operating with guards both releasing and closing but because there were no modifications to the SDO feature it was disabled and local door release had to be used at some stations due to the unions refusing driver release. I'm pretty sure the situation with tram-trains ended up being Stagecoach Supertram operating the service using vehicles which had been procured on behalf of Northern - they still don't have guards but guard-less Supertram services don't result in strike action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do they not have conductors? Regular Supertrams do, though admittedly these are more OBS like than guard like.

 

[northwichcat]

Do they not have conductors? Regular Supertrams do, though admittedly these are more OBS like than guard like.

They have revenue only conductors. That doesn't satisfy what the RMT demand for Northern services.

 

[jtuk]

This is entirely the RMT's fault but Northern are certainly doing their best to join the RMT in irritating me, given the service on the Macclesfield-Manchester line has dropped from normal but stopping at 7 when they did strike on the odd Saturday but before it was every week, to every two hours, then every two hours between 3 and 7 in the afternoon, to absolutely nothing today. Seriously? Nothing? It's a good job we still have alright local bus services as an alternative, oh wait, we don't have those either

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is entirely the RMT's fault but Northern are certainly doing their best to join the RMT in irritating me, given the service on the Macclesfield-Manchester line has dropped from normal but stopping at 7 when they did strike on the odd Saturday but before it was every week, to every two hours, then every two hours between 3 and 7 in the afternoon, to absolutely nothing today. Seriously? Nothing? It's a good job we still have alright local bus services as an alternative, oh wait, we don't have those either

That's not entirely Northern's fault, it's that fewer and fewer of the stand-in guards are volunteering. The lack of replacement buses is, however, entirely Northern's fault - when First North Western went through a period like this in the 2000s (both Saturday and Sunday in that case) they operated a very extensive network of replacement buses (at least hourly on the majority of lines), which while slower than trains were quite nice as you got a posh coach instead of a Pacer.

To be fair, you mostly got said coach to yourself, which might be why Northern haven't bothered.

 

[northwichcat]

Under FNW it was a temporary timetable where a few services on each line were replaced by buses, so unless you were catching the last replacement bus it worked out better to travel an hour earlier or later and when you got a much faster train. Plus the reliability of the replacement bus services was very poor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Under FNW it was a temporary timetable where a few services on each line were replaced by buses, so unless you were catching the last replacement bus it worked out better to travel an hour earlier or later and when you got a much faster train. Plus the reliability of the replacement bus services was very poor.

No, there was a period of time in which there were no train services at all on Saturday and Sunday, and the entire network was run using buses.

 

[northwichcat]

No, there was a period of time in which there were no train services at all on Saturday and Sunday, and the entire network was run using buses.

That must have been only one or two routes. I was using FNW services regularly on Saturdays from 2001 to 2004 and it was only last train replaced by buses and some missing middle of the day services on lines I used. On weekdays the peak time extras temporarily disappeared as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That must have been only one or two routes. I was using FNW services regularly on Saturdays from 2001 to 2004 and it was only last train replaced by buses and some missing middle of the day services on lines I used. On weekdays the peak time extras temporarily disappeared as well.

I think you're thinking of different strikes, there were several sets, FNW did not have a smooth time of things generally.

 

[Killingworth]

This is entirely the RMT's fault but Northern are certainly doing their best to join the RMT in irritating me, given the service on the Macclesfield-Manchester line has dropped from normal but stopping at 7 when they did strike on the odd Saturday but before it was every week, to every two hours, then every two hours between 3 and 7 in the afternoon, to absolutely nothing today. Seriously? Nothing? It's a good job we still have alright local bus services as an alternative, oh wait, we don't have those either

You're very lucky to have any buses, let alone have had a few trains. The Hope Valley line has had no Saturday service whenever a strike day has been declared. Edale is 3 miles from the nearest bus, and that requires a serious climb via Hollins Cross over the ridge below Mam Tor to Castleton. I know, we're outdoor hardy types in the Peak District, but Northern suggest we make our way to Hope to catch a bus to Sheffield. Hope is further away than Castleton, but to get to Manchester that bus will need to connect with a TPE or East Midlands fast service to Piccadilly.

A normal journey from Edale to Chinley takes a few minutes. On a Saturday it is still possible. An East Midlands service out of Sheffield shortly after 6, or out of Piccadilly after 23.00.

The Hope Valley is not the only line suffering in this dispute. A dispute about working practices that, if implemented, would have minimal effect on the line other than to possibly allow the doors to be opened a little quicker.

 

[yorksrob]

Which goes to show we, as passengers owe no favours to any of the parties in this dispute.

Members of the RMT can say that management are their target, but the constant disruption of Saturdays feels like a personal vendetta against ourselves.

 

[Gems]

Which goes to show we, as passengers owe no favours to any of the parties in this dispute.

Members of the RMT can say that management are their target, but the constant disruption of Saturdays feels like a personal vendetta against ourselves.

I will confess I'm getting awfully uncomfortable with it. I'm not alone either.

 

[DaveB10780]

I feel that the RMT have now got used to Saturday's being a non working day. I am not saying by any means that the other parties have covered themselves in glory but the bottom line is that the RMT have messed up many peoples weekends and seem to not care in the slightest. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Get back to work or if not and jobs are lost as a consequence it would be fully deserved.

 

[Killingworth]

Leaving aside the dispute for a minute, I couldn't help seeing on the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme thread that all the Hope Valley stations now feature in the worst 100 in the country for time keeping when trains do run. The cancellations on Saturdays don't count.

Seen from north Derbyshire the rail industry seems to have a collective death wish!

 

[Bevan Price]

I feel that the RMT have now got used to Saturday's being a non working day. I am not saying by any means that the other parties have covered themselves in glory but the bottom line is that the RMT have messed up many peoples weekends and seem to not care in the slightest. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Get back to work or if not and jobs are lost as a consequence it would be fully deserved.

I have some sympathy for the guards, but I think their tactics are misguided. The real cause of the dispute originates with DfT, but all they are doing is antagonise the unfortunate "piggies in the middle"- the passengers. It should be obvious by now that the DfT cares *** all about the passengers and is "content" to let the strikes continue forever.

All the guards are doing is lose pay on a probably futile exercise that they will not be allowed to win whilst (for the next 10-20 years) we have a series of Tory-led governments.
In my opinion, Mr Cash and his RMT are in danger of doing to the railways what Mr Scargill and NUM did for the UK coal mining industry.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have some sympathy for the guards, but I think their tactics are misguided. The real cause of the dispute originates with DfT, but all they are doing is antagonise the unfortunate "piggies in the middle"- the passengers. It should be obvious by now that the DfT cares *** all about the passengers and is "content" to let the strikes continue forever.

All the guards are doing is lose pay on a probably futile exercise that they will not be allowed to win whilst (for the next 10-20 years) we have a series of Tory-led governments.
In my opinion, Mr Cash and his RMT are in danger of doing to the railways what Mr Scargill and NUM did for the UK coal mining industry.

Quite - and that very point has been made a number of times before. However, they still give the appearance of believing that their view is the only one that matters, and that the government/DfT will eventually roll over and agree to all their demands. This terribly blinkered approach, coupled with a mistaken belief that the general public are supporting them, is why others keep highlighting the similarities with Scargill and the NUM.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Which goes to show we, as passengers owe no favours to any of the parties in this dispute.

Members of the RMT can say that management are their target, but the constant disruption of Saturdays feels like a personal vendetta against ourselves.

Of course we as passengers are collateral damage in this dispute. However it is not just passengers, but businesses that are now starting to suffer.

A friend of mine and his wife used to often go on a Saturday and visit pubs in Manchester and the breweries along the inappropriately named Temperance Street under the arches south of Piccadilly. This week they managed to get there on Friday instead as some places were open.

Staff wondered why they hadn't been around for a while and they told them that it was because of the strike. They were told that some staff at the venue had had to leave early and lose pay as a result; in addition they were told that the strike had been a contributory factor in the recent closure of a number of bars although I don't know which.

With a lot of pubs and bars dependent upon a boost before Christmas before the health police try to impose "dryanuary" on us, the lack of trains and alternative means of public transport means this type of business in our city centres in particular are going to have a tough time.

 

[northwichcat]

I think you're thinking of different strikes, there were several sets, FNW did not have a smooth time of things generally.

I'm pretty sure in general FNW didn't operate replacement bus services on strike days, maybe you were lucky and the line you wanted to use had some sort of replacement service on strike days but most certainly didn't. The two periods of lengthy disruption I recall were one where ASLEF members stopped working overtime (which is what I was referring to earlier on) and one where Piccadilly station was being redeveloped.