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Could we see a Maglev Transrapid system in the UK?

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Malcwatt

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Hello everyone

I'd like to start a sensible discussion about Maglev, in particular the Transrapid system and its benefits, or otherwise, especially in regard to the UK.

I'm happy that it has been moved into "Speculative Ideas" and am able to supply quite a lot of information.
 
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Tunnel Bore

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I think the fact that in China they built one short line from Pudong airport to (almost) Shanghai but then nothing else despite their massive spending on other infrastructure projects and their love of eye-catching technology tells you all you need to know about how good the case for Maglev really is.

As a kid I was captivated by Eric Laithwaite's Christmas lectures on TV and later saw him give a live demonstration of his linear levitating motors. It's not that I don't think the technology is interesting; it's that I don't think it makes sense as an overall solution for transport.
 

Malcwatt

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It's a lot more complicated than that, TB, if I may use your initials.
There was a plan to extend the Shanghai maglev to Beijing but, as usual, politics got in the way. Plus the Chinese weren't happy, as I understand it, in the pace of technology transfer. Neither were the Germans when they found the Chinese reverse engineering the transrapid!
Suffice to say, the Chinese are now developing their own 600km/h maglev, looking a lot like Transrapid, which they claim is totally "home grown".
They intend to build a maglev track between Shanhai and Beijing, having it operating in the early 2020s, producing a journey time of around 2 hours compared with four and a half at present.
What I am really interested in is the UK Ultraspeed proposal to build a Glasgow to the capital link, turned down by the government in 2010.
 

jopsuk

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high speed surface transport that isn't conventional rail faces massive challenges. One big advantage conventional High Speed has over maglev, hyperloop (which is maglev in a vacuum tube and nothing more) is that you can easily route the trains, in most cases, into existing city centre stations, using standard tracks for the last few miles. This gives you city centre-city centre travel and integration with local transit.

You can see this partly with the Shanghai Transrapid- although it does interchange with local metro, this is done at a terminus some distance from the city centre, and the proposed longer Transrapid line was cancelled in favour of conventional high speed rail at a far lower cost to build and operate
 

Malcwatt

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Hyperloop is a different kettle of fish, my personal feeling is that it will never be commercially successful, well not for passengers at least. Goods perhaps, but they need to be really time sensitive if the need to be hurtled around at 700mph!

The Shanghai Maglev was built as a demonstrator line, never with the intention of making a profit. It was hoped that the "in town" terminus would help develop business growth in that area. That didn't happen, unfortunately. However it has been running for quite a number of years at 99.98% availability, timing accurate to with a couple of seconds and proved it runs in severe weather conditions, snow and a cyclone closing down all other public transport.

Bringing maglev into the city centre does give problems, however it can run elevated over other rail lines or motorways.
True it can't run on standard track, this could be looked at as an advantage in that it would have its own dedicated platforms and station entry, meaning it wouldn't be delayed by, or cause delays to, normal rail traffic as, perhaps, High Speed Rail might suffer.
 

PeterC

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SNIP

Bringing maglev into the city centre does give problems, however it can run elevated over other rail lines or motorways.
True it can't run on standard track, this could be looked at as an advantage in that it would have its own dedicated platforms and station entry, meaning it wouldn't be delayed by, or cause delays to, normal rail traffic as, perhaps, High Speed Rail might suffer.
Depending on your viewpoint the need for a totally dedicated route maybe a good or bad thing. A project will have to be all or nothing.
 

edwin_m

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Maglev also has the same problems with junctions as most other "novel" guided transit systems. Any junction has to have a moveable section of guideway, so takes a long time to switch and all routes, or all but one, can only be traversed at low speed. This probably explains why most maglevs are proposed as point-to-point routes. If several routes were to share the expensive and difficult access to a city centre for instance, then there would have to be a junction near the edge of the city which would have quite a big effect on journey times because all routes except the straight one would have to slow down when they are just getting up to speed.
 

Malcwatt

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PeterC - agreed. However extending the system, either from a station or from mid route would not pose insurmountable problems.
 

Malcwatt

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edwin_m
The transrapid specs show a highspeed bendable switch with a turnout radius of 2886 m which equates to a speed around 400km/h.
There is also a low speed bendable speed switch with a turnout radius of 721 m speed just under 200 km/h.
Does this answer your issue?
Once I fathom out how to share images on the forum, I will gladly share these with you.
 

edwin_m

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edwin_m
The transrapid specs show a highspeed bendable switch with a turnout radius of 2886 m which equates to a speed around 400km/h.
There is also a low speed bendable speed switch with a turnout radius of 721 m speed just under 200 km/h.
Does this answer your issue?
Once I fathom out how to share images on the forum, I will gladly share these with you.
You can just post a link.

How long a section has to be moveable to achieve a curve on that radius? Must be well into the hundreds of metres.
 

Malcwatt

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Edwin_m
148.6m and 74.3m respectively.
Turn radius.png
 

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Bletchleyite

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Hello everyone. I'd like to start a sensible discussion about Maglev, in particular the Transrapid system and its benefits, or otherwise, especially in regard to the UK.
Are you interested in joining in?

FWIW, I've been on the Chinese one, and while it feels ICE through and through and was a nice curiosity, one noticeable thing is that they mostly only operate it at 250km/h (or was it 300km/h?) rather than the full 400km/h, because the cost of full speed is so high in energy terms. So there is little gain there in practice over conventional steel-on-steel high speed rail.
 

Bletchleyite

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What I am really interested in is the UK Ultraspeed proposal to build a Glasgow to the capital link, turned down by the government in 2010.

The UK simply isn't big enough to need that sort of speed, and for those people who really *do* need it there's planes.

China is huge but has most people clustered into a relatively small number of very, very large cities - this provides an almost unique "perfect market" for this kind of thing - speed *and* capacity.
 

furnessvale

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Maglev also has the same problems with junctions as most other "novel" guided transit systems. Any junction has to have a moveable section of guideway, so takes a long time to switch and all routes, or all but one, can only be traversed at low speed. This probably explains why most maglevs are proposed as point-to-point routes. If several routes were to share the expensive and difficult access to a city centre for instance, then there would have to be a junction near the edge of the city which would have quite a big effect on journey times because all routes except the straight one would have to slow down when they are just getting up to speed.
This, plus the inability to have through running from existing railways are the achilles heels of novel transport systems of whatever type.

When/if HS2 is built to Birmingham trains for many locations north thereof will share the infrastructure.

When/if a maglev or monorail is built to Birmingham, trains to........er........Birmingham will be able to use it.
 

Malcwatt

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FWIW, I've been on the Chinese one, and while it feels ICE through and through and was a nice curiosity, one noticeable thing is that they mostly only operate it at 250km/h (or was it 300km/h?) rather than the full 400km/h, because the cost of full speed is so high in energy terms. So there is little gain there in practice over conventional steel-on-steel high speed rail.
Here's a link to the Shanghai Maglev site, showing times and speeds of the trains
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/ci...PbxnwqsCQpvT3sgw9nsP6Y2TUrUMV0TTfz4pYp27RjnZc
 

Malcwatt

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The UK simply isn't big enough to need that sort of speed, and for those people who really *do* need it there's planes.

China is huge but has most people clustered into a relatively small number of very, very large cities - this provides an almost unique "perfect market" for this kind of thing - speed *and* capacity.
UK Ultraspeed put together this potential travel time list, perhaps it demonstrates the benefits of higher and sustained acelleration to give an overall higher average speed. Also the plan was to connect most of the major cities and airports, not just to London, but to each other
 

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Malcwatt

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This, plus the inability to have through running from existing railways are the achilles heels of novel transport systems of whatever type.

When/if HS2 is built to Birmingham trains for many locations north thereof will share the infrastructure.

When/if a maglev or monorail is built to Birmingham, trains to........er........Birmingham will be able to use it.
The maglev route was to be London to Glasgow starting on the west coast and moving to the east coast. It would have included many of the cities HS2 stock would run to at a much higher speed.
 

Malcwatt

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As with other mass transport system, be they air, rail or sea, the problem seems to be with the "last mile".
That is moving a high number of passengers arriving at one point to disparate destinations.
Once that problem is solved (it could call for another conversation thread, perhaps Personal Rapid Transit?) then it doesn't really matter where the stations are so long as they are fairly near the centres of population, work, shopping or entertainment.
 

si404

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The maglev route was to be London to Glasgow starting on the west coast and moving to the east coast. It would have included many of the cities HS2 stock would run to at a much higher speed.
At the same cost, if not more, than a captive HS Rail route along the same corridor.

Thus London-Glasgow Maglev would cost a bit more than HS2 (as it's more track miles and lots of difficult terrain), but additionally would not serve Stoke, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, East Midlands, Newcastle or Edinburgh at all (other than using existing rail connections at interchanges) unless you spend even more money and build branches/loops.
As with other mass transport system, be they air, rail or sea, the problem seems to be with the "last mile".
Except here, its more like the last 20 (Liverpool), or 80 (Newcastle) miles, unless you throw down a load of money.

Sure, that's a problem with air and sea too, but with rail the 'last mile' is much more in that mile ballpark. Thus there's little reason to try and supercede rail unless you need that speed boost to cover large distances. We might, perhaps, need super-duper-fast tracks to provide capacity relief for HS2 (cf Chūō Shinkansen), but that Japanese example is somewhat similar to our HS2 vs WCML - takes a more direct line, skips out various secondary cities in favour of just serving the big ones, and so we're unlikely to see a similar Maglev given it's under-construction as rail.
 

edwin_m

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For balance of all these links to a site which is unashamedly promoting the technology, here is the 2007 Smith/Kemp report commissioned by the UK Government.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives...supportingdocs/railwhitepapermaglevreport.pdf
Conclusions

1. In terms of energy consumption per seat, the proposed Transrapid system operating at 500 km/h would use between 2 and 3 times as much energy as an IC225 and roughly 40% more than a 300 km/h TGV running on a direct route. Replacing conventional train services with Transrapid would increase the UK’s CO2 emissions.


2. In comparison with 200 km/h rail, Transrapid would offer a worthwhile journey time improvement to passengers over longer journeys, such as London to Scotland. Over shorter journeys, such as London to Birmingham, city-centre to city-centre times are likely to be no better than for existing train services, unless the system has direct access to city centres.

3. Encouraging travellers to switch from a fuel-efficient car to Transrapid might be beneficial environmentally if there is only one person in a car: it depends on the mix of fuels used for electricity generation. For 2 or more people travelling together, it would be more environmentally friendly for them to use a car. While it is almost always environmentally beneficial to persuade car users to switch to a 200 km/h train, there is no general environmental case to persuade car users to switch to a 500 km/h maglev.

4. Transrapid would not replace conventional train services, as it would serve different communities, but would supplement them. Having stations on the outskirts of cities, not in the centre, would encourage car use and the service would encourage travel growth, including long-distance commuting. Overall, the construction and operation of a 500 km/h maglev system would increase the UK’s emissions of CO2, thus requiring greater economies elsewhere if national targets are to be met.

5. During Transrapid acceleration, the load taken from a grid supply point would be more than 50 MW per train. In addition, trains could regenerate up to 40 MW into the supply. This would require new connections to the EHV grid and, in places, may require its reinforcement. On the assumption that a fully-developed Transrapid
system would operate with around 60 trains, the total additional electrical load would be more than 1 GW – equivalent to a nuclear power station with the capacity of
Sizewell B.

6. The Transrapid Shanghai project does not comply with UK safety standards for guided transport systems. Major changes to both vehicles and infrastructure would be
necessary unless safety standards are relaxed.

7. Prototype running on the largely flat routes in Germany and Shanghai has not demonstrated that the proposed levels of lateral and vertical acceleration, to which passengers on a more hilly and sinuous UK system would be subjected, would be acceptable. Until this issue is resolved, any proposals that define both the route and
the journey time can only be hypothetical.

8. It is not clear how an intercity maglev project could be structured commercially to comply with European Directives on interoperability or competition policy.

9. A realistic costing of the whole project should include land acquisition, service diversion, provision of feeder services to city centres and power supply feeds. We
have seen no evidence that these are included in the estimates to date.

10.Because the wheel/rail system produces increasing damage as speeds increase, the track maintenance costs also increase sharply with speed. At first sight, the
elimination of direct contact in the maglev looks attractive, but experience is limited on the long term maintenance costs of the maglev infrastructure.

11. Maglev systems would not allow the flexibility of interoperability with the existing rail network. This has implications for the phased introduction of a nationwide system and for city centre access. The switching system of maglev is necessarily cumbersome.
 

WideRanger

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Sure, that's a problem with air and sea too, but with rail the 'last mile' is much more in that mile ballpark. Thus there's little reason to try and supercede rail unless you need that speed boost to cover large distances. We might, perhaps, need super-duper-fast tracks to provide capacity relief for HS2 (cf Chūō Shinkansen), but that Japanese example is somewhat similar to our HS2 vs WCML - takes a more direct line, skips out various secondary cities in favour of just serving the big ones, and so we're unlikely to see a similar Maglev given it's under-construction as rail.

The Chuo Shinkansen is planned as a Maglev route. Although they are constructing the infrastructure so that it can be converted to standard Shinkansen if necessary.
 

si404

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The Chuo Shinkansen is planned as a Maglev route. Although they are constructing the infrastructure so that it can be converted to standard Shinkansen if necessary.
Indeed, that's why I mention it.

Though your second point is interesting. And actually, conventional HSR on that corridor would still be significantly faster than the existing HSR due to improvements in that technology, and the sheer amount of money put into having a very very direct bee-line alignment future-proofed for crazy speeds.
 

Pigeon

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As a kid I was captivated by Eric Laithwaite's Christmas lectures on TV and later saw him give a live demonstration of his linear levitating motors. It's not that I don't think the technology is interesting; it's that I don't think it makes sense as an overall solution for transport.

I hope you forgot all the stuff about gyroscopes!

I agree the technology is interesting; it's very whizzy and sci-fi to be able to make a plain simple metal plate hover in the air and move about with nothing touching it. Trouble is (as is often the case when some whizzy sci-fi concept turns out to actually be possible in reality) it's next to useless for any purpose other than showing off how whizzy and sci-fi you are. In the case of maglev, this is because it's a solution to a problem which not only has already been solved, but has been solved so long ago that the existing solution has been implemented on a national or international scale, and the old and new solutions are entirely incompatible. In the case of maglev in the UK, it's also particularly prominent that any advantage the new solution does have over the old is rendered nugatory by the small and crowded nature of the country, and the same factor makes the disadvantage of incompatibility all that much the more significant.

High speed transport is a waste of energy. That maglev has less loss from track-interaction drag than wheels on rails does not significantly change this. At the kinds of speeds that "high speed" refers to in this kind of discussion, the loss from air resistance is so large that it swamps everything else. For a journey of a given distance, the energy lost to air resistance rises as the square of the speed (and the power required as the cube) - ie. to do it in half the time requires four times as much fuel (and an engine eight times as powerful). So "high speed" means that any claim about rail being "green transport" goes right out the window before you even start.

Nor is there any need for rail to keep increasing speed in order to match speed increases of alternative methods of transport - because there aren't going to be any. There's no chance that either the statutory 70mph national maximum road speed limit or the effective 40mph single-carriageway limit are going to increase, but congestion will increase, so roads are only going to get slower. Aircraft speeds, if anyone cares, are what they are because they have already hit practical limits imposed by physics, so no increase there either.

And in the UK, journey distances are too small for there to be any point increasing public transport speeds anyway. All that happens is that the total journey time comes to be dominated by the time spent getting to and from the stations at either end. We're already well into this region with HS2, where for all the masturbating over knocking a few minutes off the time spent on the train, it makes a lot less difference, proportionally, to the total journey time even in the most favourable cases, and does nothing at all for the majority of the population, who don't live within a few miles of its measly handful of stations. (And all the more so when the difficulty in finding suitable station sites means they end up being put in unsuitable places instead, like Toton, ffs, yes it may be half way between Derby and Nottingham but that just means it serves neither of them, not both.)

A totally incompatible system just makes things even worse because everything has to be new, and yet still somehow fit in with all the stuff we have already. The only thing it can be is an isolated point-to-point system, unintegrated with existing transport and with even more awkwardly-sited endpoints - yet still trying to serve those routes which are already the best provided for by existing facilities. It would basically be an utter waste of resources that are much better spent on improving those areas where the existing facilities don't provide a good, or any, service.

And that's all before even getting as far as considering the specific system this thread is about - ie. "Transrapid". This is one of the stupidly-resource-intensive maglev configurations where instead of putting all the electrical parts on board the vehicle and keeping the track as simple as possible, it's done the other way round so the whole flipping track is a traction motor. How anyone can be dumb enough to even consider this for any scale larger than a laboratory experiment is beyond me. It's bad enough for small local shuttles, but we're being asked to consider it for inter-city distances. Hundreds of miles of great big copper coils - hundreds of thousands of miles of wire - and most of the time it isn't even doing anything, just sitting there waiting to wake up for a second or so when a train comes past. Copper is a finite resource and there is already concern that it will run out - on a much shorter timescale than other finite resources like oil that there is much more fuss about - and while there are many alternative sources of energy, most of them are electrical, so they depend on copper, and there is no alternative to that (perhaps aluminium, but it's a poor substitute, and not suitable for most uses). An electricity-dependent society trying to get by without copper is a worse mess than an oil-dependent society trying to get by without oil, and when it's the same society in both positions at the same time...
 

Malcwatt

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At the same cost, if not more, than a captive HS Rail route along the same corridor.

Thus London-Glasgow Maglev would cost a bit more than HS2 (as it's more track miles and lots of difficult terrain), but additionally would not serve Stoke, Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, East Midlands, Newcastle or Edinburgh at all (other than using existing rail connections at interchanges) unless you spend even more money and build branches/loops.
Except here, its more like the last 20 (Liverpool), or 80 (Newcastle) miles, unless you throw down a load of money.

Sure, that's a problem with air and sea too, but with rail the 'last mile' is much more in that mile ballpark. Thus there's little reason to try and supercede rail unless you need that speed boost to cover large distances. We might, perhaps, need super-duper-fast tracks to provide capacity relief for HS2 (cf Chūō Shinkansen), but that Japanese example is somewhat similar to our HS2 vs WCML - takes a more direct line, skips out various secondary cities in favour of just serving the big ones, and so we're unlikely to see a similar Maglev given it's under-construction as rail.
I don't know what route you were looking at, s1404, The Ultraspeed route was Glasgow to Edinburgh, then on to Newcastle, south to Teesside, then to Leeds, over the Pennines to Manchester, with a spur to Liverpool. South from Manchester to Birmingham via Manchester Airport, then NEC/Birmingham International, diverging north of London to terminate at Stratford and Heathrow.
Total route length 286 miles (458Km) at £30m per Km, serving 14 stations.
Admittedly these estimates were from 2011, so inflation may well have increased some costs. However the guideway manufacturer, Max Bogl, has developed a lighter and cheaper concrete guideway (the original having greater steel content) reducing costs by 30%.
 

Malcwatt

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Malcwatt

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The Chuo Shinkansen is planned as a Maglev route. Although they are constructing the infrastructure so that it can be converted to standard Shinkansen if necessary.
Where did you see that report (converting to standard Shinkansen)?
 
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