Passenger not allowed on station

[ComUtoR]

In a number of the Asian cultures "saving face" is vitally important - being aware of this is not being racist, it's more cultural awareness.

So brown skin + beard + male = Asian culture ? That is an assumption they are following any form of religion or culture. I.e. complete stereotype.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So brown skin + beard + male = Asian culture ? That is an assumption they are following any form of religion or culture. I.e. complete stereotype.

I've not even seen the guy. It is just something to be aware of as a possibililty.

 

[ComUtoR]

I've not even seen the guy. It is just something to be aware of as a possibililty.

How do you know what religion of culture someone is following based on what they look like ? How do you know that because someone is African they go home and beat their wife ? After all isn't that the stereotype ? My Asian neighbor must have a smelly house because they all do right ? That is not cultural awareness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you know what religion of culture someone is following based on what they look like ? How do you know that because someone is African they go home and beat their wife ? After all isn't that the stereotype ? My Asian neighbor must have a smelly house because they all do right ? That is not cultural awareness.

Oh, behave.

I'm saying that this may be the case, not that it is the case.

 

[methethpropbut]

A strange conversation this. He had the choice to lose face to one person, or to lose face to the whole world. He chose the latter.

 

[ComUtoR]

A strange conversation this. He had the choice to lose face to one person, or to lose face to the whole world. He chose the latter.

Was that because he was ignorant of the ticket validity or because he was Asian ?

If it was because he was Asian and they believe men are superior; should we be culturally sensitive and accept that he was acting on his faith and support him with retraining ? Or sack him for being a bully ?

 

[Wolfie]

Was that because he was ignorant of the ticket validity or because he was Asian ?

If it was because he was Asian and they believe men are superior; should we be culturally sensitive and accept that he was acting on his faith and support him with retraining ? Or sack him for being a bully ?

You are in danger of overegging what in retrospect was initially perhaps a fair point.
Giving you a literal answer though we should actually prosecute him for breaking the law.

 

[ComUtoR]

You are in danger of overegging what in retrospect was initially perhaps a fair point.

Stereotyping him for being Asian is a fair point ? Racially profiling him ? Do you really believe that was fair ? Fair would be to judge him on his actions and carry out an investigation according to the internal procedures and policies. If him being an Asian male came up in that investigation it would be thrown out and the TOC would be liable for legal action against them for acting inappropriately and discriminatory.

Giving you a literal answer though we should actually prosecute him for breaking the law.

Which law did he break ?

I'm interested to know why she didn't just tap out the gate or use her ticket to let her through the gate. He wasn't physically restraining her. Did the gates not open when she tried to exit ?

 

[Wolfie]

Stereotyping him for being Asian is a fair point ? Racially profiling him ? Do you really believe that was fair ? Fair would be to judge him on his actions and carry out an investigation according to the internal procedures and policies. If him being an Asian male came up in that investigation it would be thrown out and the TOC would be liable for legal action against them for acting inappropriately and discriminatory.

You misunderstood my meaning. I meant that you initially had a fair point but by constantly stretching it and making unsubstantiated assertions and leaps of logic...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Did the gates not open when she tried to exit ?

I'm sure if it did, we wouldn't be reading this thread now. I think that's just about a foregone conclusion; why would anyone engage in a very unpleasant encounter like that if it was entirely avoidable!

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm sure if it did, we wouldn't be reading this thread now. I think that's just about a foregone conclusion;

Is there then a question of the gate refusing exit and the staff member, rightly or wrongly, determining ticket validity due to the gate refusing the ticket ?

why would anyone engage in a very unpleasant encounter like that if it was entirely avoidable!

I have seen the weirdest things at the gateline recently. A passenger had a stand up blazing row (lots of expletives) because they wouldn't use their ticket and expected the gate to be opened for them. It happens on a semi regular basis where people outright refuse to take their season tickets out the holder and stick it through the gate.

I stood chatting near the gates a few weeks ago and observed some really confrontational people and watched a few incidents escalate that were wholly unavoidable. From both passengers and staff :/

 

[Wolfie]

Which law did he break ?

I'm interested to know why she didn't just tap out the gate or use her ticket to let her through the gate. He wasn't physically restraining her. Did the gates not open when she tried to exit ?

My third attempt at addressing this on my phone...grrr

I am aware that under some nicely antiquated 19th century law railway staff have the right to detain (there is a thread on it). I am also aware that most if not all TOCs at the very least discourage their staff from using those powers. Furthermore those powers are only valid if the staff member has a reasonable belief that an offence has taken place - an individual who has been told by his own company that he is wrong foregoes that defence.
The video to me clearly shows the staff member inside the gate line. Furthermore he apparently moves to block every time the passenger moves forward. That to me constitutes physical restraint and a detention. An illegal detention constitutes an assault against the person. Therefore he can and should be prosecuted.

I'm not even sure that she got to try her ticket in the gate...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen the weirdest things at the gateline recently. A passenger had a stand up blazing row (lots of expletives) because they wouldn't use their ticket and expected the gate to be opened for them. It happens on a semi regular basis where people outright refuse to take their season tickets out the holder and stick it through the gate.

Some people are just awkward, but quite a lot of people on expenses need to keep their (non-season) tickets because TOC receipts don't contain enough information. TOCs could solve this one by ensuring that the receipt contains full detail of the ticket, which would not be difficult. Some contain more, some less, but none everything on the ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm interested to know why she didn't just tap out the gate or use her ticket to let her through the gate. He wasn't physically restraining her. Did the gates not open when she tried to exit ?

Because in the general case, and irrespective of if it’s a paper ticket or smartcard, gates are not usually programmed to deal with every possible valid origin/destination pair.

 

[Hadders]

I doubt that a London Terminals - Oakham ticket would open the barriers at New Barnet, even though a break of journey there is totally valid.

Maybe we should arrange a forum trip there for some mystery shopping.

 

[Wolfie]

I doubt that a London Terminals - Oakham ticket would open the barriers at New Barnet, even though a break of journey there is totally valid.

Maybe we should arrange a forum trip there for some mystery shopping.

So do l. I hope that this did not all arise as the result of yet another badly trained staff member assuming that any ticket rejected by the barriers is invalid.

 

[Haywain]

I am far from anti-TU and am pretty sure that even the most 'dinosaur' wouldn't/couldn't support him harassing a woman at her workplace.

I would expect that anyone who is a union member would be supported by their union if they face disciplinary charges. That does not mean the union support their actions but assist in providing advice and presenting a defence, and ensuring the disciplinary process follows the correct procedures. It is, after all, a quasi-legal process and most of us would not dream of going into a court of law without a specialist to assist us.

 

[Wolfie]

I would expect that anyone who is a union member would be supported by their union if they face disciplinary charges. That does not mean the union support their actions but assist in providing advice and presenting a defence, and ensuring the disciplinary process follows the correct procedures. It is, after all, a quasi-legal process and most of us would not dream of going into a court of law without a specialist to assist us.

Let's be brutally honest, if he harassed her at her workplace that would predominantly be a criminal not a work/disciplinary issue

 

[Millisle]

Let's be brutally honest, if he harassed her at her workplace that would be a criminal not a work/disciplinary issue

I do not know how much you know about trade unions. I am a former trade union official, not railway. Trade unions do not evaluate a member's worthiness when providing support. Like legal representation they try to establish innocence in disciplinary matters if possible, if not they they seek to mitigate the penalty. They continue to support members in work related criminal cases, employing lawyers as necessary.

 

[Wolfie]

I do not know how much you know about trade unions. I am a former trade union official, not railway. Trade unions do not evaluate a member's worthiness when providing support. Like legal representation they try to establish innocence in disciplinary matters if possible, if not they they seek to mitigate the penalty. They continue to support members in work related criminal cases, employing lawyers as necessary.

I am a TU member (not rail industry) and have been since 1986.

 

[Starmill]

Did the gates not open when she tried to exit ?

Is this a serious question? I am inclined to believe that this cannot possibly be a serious question.

 

[A Challenge]

From some of the posts since the question seems to be more did it get tried in the barriers (though it probably wouldn't work anyway [#75])

 

[ComUtoR]

Is this a serious question? I am inclined to believe that this cannot possibly be a serious question.

Why would it not be a serious question ?

Just because you may know that gates are not programed to open for a valid ticket, not everyone does. Personally I find it a reasonable assumption that the gate should open if a ticket is valid. The first thing I do when traveling is to use the gate. If it doesn't work then I go speak to a member of staff to let me out.

From the video you only see the confrontation. I'm interested in the build up to the incident. Did she try to exit through the barriers and the gateline refused her ticket and then the staff member wrongly assumed the gate was correct (like me, didn't know what the gates can and cannot do) and therefore challenged her and refused to let her out. Or did she not try the gates and waved her ticket at the staff member (which I see happen daily) and he wrongly assumed the ticket wasn't valid and prevented her exit without even trying it in the gate ?

I'm not even sure that she got to try her ticket in the gate...

I guess I'm not the only one. There was a previous encounter and I suspect that has a lot to do with what happened.

The point of investigation is to get down to the facts and prevent it from re-occurance. If the gate was faulty then it should be repaired - no issues in the future. If the gate hasn't been programmed with the ticket validity then program it - no issues in the future.

Because in the general case, and irrespective of if it’s a paper ticket or smartcard, gates are not usually programmed to deal with every possible valid origin/destination pair.

Thanks.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the gate hasn't been programmed with the ticket validity then program it - no issues in the future.

Gates are, by default, programmed to accept tickets where the origin or destination of the ticket is the station where you are entering/exiting. Anything else must be manually added. The TOCs simply don't think it's worth the time and expense to program in all valid tickets. In fact, even after this incident I wouldn't say it's likely they'll add the ticket.

 

[Wolfie]

Gates are, by default, programmed to accept tickets where the origin or destination of the ticket is the station where you are entering/exiting. Anything else must be manually added. The TOCs simply don't think it's worth the time and expense to program in all valid tickets. In fact, even after this incident I wouldn't say it's likely they'll add the ticket.

Thats all very well but at the very least they therefore need to train ALL of their staff that rejection of a ticket by the gates is no reflection on the validity or otherwise of said ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats all very well but at the very least they therefore need to train ALL of their staff that rejection of a ticket by the gates is no reflection on the validity or otherwise of said ticket.

Indeed. What it triggers is a need for the member of staff to properly examine the ticket, find out what the passenger has done and see if it's valid or not.

To use a particularly complex example - take Milton Keynes Central to Bristol Temple Meads, route +Any Permitted, which is valid via London or Birmingham, and let's say for the sake of argument permits Break of Journey on the return half, which it almost certainly does. So on my return, if I travelled via London I am allowed to end short at Bletchley, but if I travelled via Birmingham that would net me a PF. Other than highlighting a need for a "Milton Keynes Stations" group for long-distance tickets (as for anything more distant than London the fares are all the same for Wolverton, MKC and Bletchley anyway), this shows a scenario that it is actually totally impossible to program a whole-station barrier line to handle.

FWIW, the last time I did actually do something similar (the opposite way round - the ticket was from Bletchley and I travelled via Brum and ended short at MKC) the barrier staff asked a couple of questions to ensure I had arrived via Brum before letting me through.

These scenarios are not rare, they occur in many cases where there is a line running north to south but the destination is nearly due east or west. Aughton Park/Ormskirk/Town Green to/from Manchester is another example of this kind of thing, as would be somewhere on the middle of the Cumbrian Coast to/from somewhere in the middle of that stretch of the WCML.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thats all very well but at the very least they therefore need to train ALL of their staff that rejection of a ticket by the gates is no reflection on the validity or otherwise of said ticket.

Absolutely - but sadly the TOCs don't consider that possibility. The barrier line staff member here appears to have been a contractor and the chances of them receiving anything approaching the correct kind of training are very poor. Obviously the solution is for TOCs to stop employing barrier staff as contractors and to take them on in house and train them properly. But that will not happen, for cost reasons: in house employees have to be paid more and have to have annual increases due to the unions. Plus proper training is also expensive.

 

[Wolfie]

Absolutely - but sadly the TOCs don't consider that possibility. The barrier line staff member here appears to have been a contractor and the chances of them receiving anything approaching the correct kind of training are very poor. Obviously the solution is for TOCs to stop employing barrier staff as contractors and to take them on in house and train them properly. But that will not happen, for cost reasons: in house employees have to be paid more and have to have annual increases due to the unions. Plus proper training is also expensive.

So is the legal action that TOCs will start facing if the current situation continues. I for one would sue GN for assault.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely - but sadly the TOCs don't consider that possibility. The barrier line staff member here appears to have been a contractor and the chances of them receiving anything approaching the correct kind of training are very poor. Obviously the solution is for TOCs to stop employing barrier staff as contractors and to take them on in house and train them properly. But that will not happen, for cost reasons: in house employees have to be paid more and have to have annual increases due to the unions. Plus proper training is also expensive.

Another option would be to progress development on remote monitoring of barrier lines, so you could have a relatively small but properly trained team covering a larger number of stations, with the role of any security guard also present purely being security and not letting people through if the barrier rejects the ticket unless instructed to by the person at the end of the phone. The need for on-site staff is purely for a fire evacuation or similar.

 

[Mojo]

Is her ticket valid ? (irrespective of what is said int he video) would a London Terminal (via any permitted) to Oakham be valid at New Barnet ?

Yes, mapped on map KP.

In this instance, the staff member wouldn't have even need to have got involved with the complexities of reading the detail of the Routeing Guide! From London to Oakham a route "via Peterborough" exists, and it is actually the cheaper route compared to the Any Permitted.

The barrier line staff member here appears to have been a contractor and the chances of them receiving anything approaching the correct kind of training are very poor.

I'm not sure why you think he is a contractor?

Another option would be to progress development on remote monitoring of barrier lines, so you could have a relatively small but properly trained team covering a larger number of stations, with the role of any security guard also present purely being security and not letting people through if the barrier rejects the ticket unless instructed to by the person at the end of the phone.

However, we need to accept that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the staff member does not get it wrong. Relying on an intercom system where there are staff members standing by would lead to an overwhelmingly decreased level of customer service for the majority of customers who will not have an issue.