Scotrail - possible Abellio early termination vote & renationalisation

[Altnabreac]

As I understand it the Scottish Government doesn't have any powers to change the structure of the RAIL Industry in Scotland or to force Network Rail to do anything.

What they do have is the ability to buy anything they want from Network Rail as a customer (But Network Rail can turn down their offers if they don't fancy doing something.

So as stated the Scottish Government could say "Here's £3Bn to make the Highland Main line dualled and electrified to Inverness".

What they can't say is "We think you could dual and electrify to Inverness for £2Bn if you developed more in house electrification equipment and staff, do that instead of letting it out to Carillion."

Equally they can't say "We think TS could dual and electrify to Inverness for £2Bn by letting contracts directly to Balfour Beatty and by seeking more derogations from National Standards for clearances in rural areas"

And Network Rail can say "Give us £5Bn because that sounds tricky and we can't really be bothered working out how much it will actually cost"

So Scottish Government are a client and funder of Network Rail but they don't really have "Control" of Network Rail in the sense of "I'm the Transport Minister, if you piss me off you're out of a job Hendy" that Westminster can exert. It's a subtle distinction but still a valuable one.

And if a vertically integrated, publically owned Scotrail operating track and trains is what you want (I'm not 100% convinced it's a great idea but let's assume we all wanted that) the Scottish Government do not have the power to deliver that while the Westminster Government could implement that should they wish to.

 

[Highland37]

Thanks. That is very useful .

Could the Scottish Government nationalise Scotrail in the same way the British Government has East Coast without any need to seek permission ?

 

[Mingulay]

Whether it was based in Edniburgh or anywhere else in the UK or courted by anyone is irrelevant. It is and was regulated and controlled under the UK system.

I agree with you though about the UK banking crises. Scotland would have had to default had the scale of the actual UK disaster been applied to Scotland alone. However, I don't think it would have even got close to being so bad as it would have been much more tightly regulated. Capitalisation and liquidity fell hugely in the decades preceding the UK crises which also affected many other countries.

Having a degree is irrelevant. Anyone with half a brain cell can get one.

Democracy is about free choice.

Democracy is indeed about choice

But at no time in my voting lifetime as of now, do I feel so disinclined to vote with conviction for any party . We a bereft of leadership , talent and sound policy from all parties it seems . Up here and in Westminster

You are right, a uni degree should be no final measure of eligibility , but some business experience is what one would want in a Finance Secy , an important job. Derek MacKay looks woefully out his depth in a cabinet / Holyrood where he manages to float to the top !

Independent or in the UK we all want Scotland to prosper , but with more than adequate levers of power at their disposal for years , the current administration is out of options other than the Mantra of independence .

We are all going thru the turmoil of Brexit and the SNP will no doubt try to make capital out of it. Yawn ! Bear in mind that an independent Scotland fails to meet the spending requirements for EU entry so we would have to have Austerity ++ to get in. That fiscal reality and deficit is conveniently overlooked by the Nationalists. What will be cut ? By how much ?

So in the real world coming back to the topic , the current review of Abellio is political window dressing by a government keen to distract and appear to be delivering , but most informed folks will see thru that

 

[Highland37]

To answer your second point first, I think the Scottish Government should have all the powers over railways that the UK government has in England. I hope that's clear.

A UK regulation framework is fine and sensible but the powers over that regulator should be shared .

And as I see above, Alltnabreac has addressed your points pretty well .

 

[Highland37]

Just to refresh where we are re powers and nationalisation;

The Scottish Government doesn't have powers over:
* Network Rail (but it can ask them to do things)
* ORR
* Management of NR's debt and structure

It's not clear if the Scottish Government could do to Scotrail what the UK Government did to VTEC yet. Could it?

 

[mcmad]

The Scottish Government does write the HLOS and agree the funds available along with an approval in the enhancements pipeline fund through TS so to say they have no powers over Network Rail is disingenuous.

 

[Highland37]

"Agree the funds available" - That is not the same as having powers.

Can NR be forced, against their will, to do what the SG wants?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could the Scottish Government nationalise Scotrail in the same way the British Government has East Coast without any need to seek permission ?

Yes, in the strict sense that they could fire Abellio and ask another operator (or an Operator of Last Resort as happened with VTEC) to take over temporarily.
There would have to be demonstrable reasons for doing that (performance, financial etc) if a break clause was not provided for in the contract.
But it could not be a permanent nationalisation.
They can't avoid putting the franchise out for competition at some stage as per Railway Act 1993, as happened to East Coast.
A public sector operator could be one of the bidders in Scotland, but not guaranteed to win.

Scotland does not have control of NR HQ and its policies, or the industry regulatory regime (ORR, RSSB etc).
Nor do they control cross-border services (VTWC, LNER, XC, TPE), or freight and open access operators.

 

[Highland37]

Sorry if my posts are not clear but I am not seeking clarification if they could "ask" another entity such as NR or anyone else to do something, I am asking if they have the powers to do it without asking. In other words, issue direction to NR which they must follow.

My understanding is that the SG could set up an operator but could they do what the UK Government did re VTEC without seeking permission or merely asking?

Thanks re Railways Act. That's another one they don't have control over.

 

[Carntyne]

"Agree the funds available" - That is not the same as having powers.

Can NR be forced, against their will, to do what the SG wants?

The idea that Transport Scotland don't have a grip of Network Rail is frankly ludicrous. They dictate what goes on up here to the letter.

 

[Highland37]

See Allt na Breac's post above. I am not talking about "grips". I am talking about powers are defined in legislation such as the Scotland Act.

 

[Altnabreac]

The idea that Transport Scotland don't have a grip of Network Rail is frankly ludicrous. They dictate what goes on up here to the letter.

See Allt na Breac's post above. I am not talking about "grips". I am talking about powers are defined in legislation such as the Scotland Act.

Transport Scotland have lots of powers to specify Network Rail's outputs in Scotland but no powers to change the structure or operation of the railway. As LNW-GW Joint says they can temporarily appoint an operator of last resort from the public sector. Since the Scotland Act 2016 (after the current Franchise was let) they have had the ability to allow a public sector body to bid for a Franchise. But they can't simply decide not to let any franchises as they expire (which I think is currently the proposed Labour policy at Westminster of allowing franchises to lapse and not reletting them). The Franchising process is set out in Railway Act 1993 and TS / SG cannot change that legislation as it is reserved to Westminster.

 

[68000]

There is a world of difference in spending taxpayers money on enhancing the rail network and controlling NR

Simple facts

Network Rail in Scotland is the same company as Network Rail in Britain therefore it is wholly owned by the UK Government - the Scottish Government through Transport Scotland can advise and recommend

Network Rail is regulated by the UK Government regulator - the Scottish Government through Transport Scotland can advise and recommend

Responsibility for operating the infrastructure rests with NR, accountibility rests with the UK Government

 

[68000]

The idea that Transport Scotland don't have a grip of Network Rail is frankly ludicrous. They dictate what goes on up here to the letter.

No they do not

 

[mcmad]

68000, you're talking utter nonsense. The Sottish government through TS very mush control what Network Rail do and don't do in Scotland.

 

[Mingulay]

68000, you're talking utter nonsense. The Sottish government through TS very mush control what Network Rail do and don't do in Scotland.

As a passenger I really don't care who has ultimate control of NR

But given yet more signalling delays today at Larbert leaving my daughter on a platform for an hour with little explanation , abandoning her plans in Glasgow . We can all agree they do a poor job in giving the service that is required. It goes on and on this .

 

[68000]

68000, you're talking utter nonsense. The Sottish government through TS very mush control what Network Rail do and don't do in Scotland.

No, they do not

 

[68000]

As a passenger I really don't care who has ultimate control of NR

But given yet more signalling delays today at Larbert leaving my daughter on a platform for an hour with little explanation , abandoning her plans in Glasgow . We can all agree they do a poor job in giving the service that is required. It goes on and on this .

That is your choice not to care who is responsible - you are then more likely to blame the wrong party when things go wrong

It is a poor service

 

[Mingulay]

That is your choice not to care who is responsible - you are then more likely to blame the wrong party when things go wrong

It is a poor service

That is a fair comment.

I get the distinction between SR and NR. But most passengers just blame Scotrail in the generality of being long suffering commuters on the railways.

And it seems apparent given the debate above who has or has not sway with NR there is a blame game as to who can do what

It seems signalling issues are on the rise ? Is that true? If so why.

I notice my local station the old manually operated signals. ( don’t know the official designation ) are now modern light signals. Is it a case the more sophisticated the more cabling the more likely it is to go wrong ? I assume some would say take the human element out it’s safer. But I wonder if low tech is best tech when it comes to reducing faults ?

 

[68000]

Signalling issues can be failed signalling equipment or a symptom of other issues which display as signalling issues

The fundamental principle on the railway is 'fail safe'. In other words, the designers and operators of the railway have decided (rightly or wrongly) to operate the railway in a restrictive state if there are issues. This is done for safety reasons and if the railway is congested the spread of the impact can be far and wide which is generally not good for performance.

 

[och aye]

Did the vote happen today? I can't seem to find any information about it on the Scottish Parliament website.

 

[Wst71Pa2]

That is a fair comment.

It seems signalling issues are on the rise ? Is that true? If so why.

Like signal failure? following flooding? under the Forth Clyde Canal today beside Carmuirs, Again!
The sleepers have been under water on the down since Saturday.
Guess who is responsible for maintaining drainage and constantly Fails
Guess who gets it in the neck from the Public and Media for cancellations

 

[68000]

Did the vote happen today? I can't seem to find any information about it on the Scottish Parliament website.

Defeated

Grandstanding nonsense from Labour

 

[mde]

Did the vote happen today? I can't seem to find any information about it on the Scottish Parliament website.

It did - it was defeated 85 to 34. There were two amendments (one SNP, one Tory), both of which were defeated therefore leaving the motion 'as is'. The detail is in the Official Report.

 

[68000]

It did - it was defeated 85 to 34. There were two amendments (one SNP, one Tory), both of which were defeated therefore leaving the motion 'as is'. The detail is in the Official Report.

From that link the SNP amendment was tied 60 - 60 which meant the presiding officer had the casting vote and he voted it down. The amendment detail is not listed on that site but is copied below;

"As an amendment to motion S5M-14720 in the name of Colin Smyth (ScotRail Break Clause), leave out from “believes” to end and insert “notes that the punctuality and reliability of ScotRail’s services continue to be below the Scottish Government contractual performance targets; recognises that both responsible parties for the effective operation of Scotland’s rail network, Network Rail and ScotRail, are delivering as their combined priority the implementation of a suite of system-wide actions as recommended in the review by Nick Donovan; further recognises that the Scottish Government has secured the right for a public sector body to bid to run Scotland’s rail services, but also notes that the majority of rail performance problems in Scotland are the direct responsibility of Network Rail, and calls on the UK Government to take the opportunity in its Rail Review to devolve authority for rail infrastructure to Scotland, so that responsibility for this rests with the Scottish Parliament."

The above being voted down just proves that it was political grandstanding

 

[EMU303]

While the quality of government in Scotland has been generally pretty good, Salmond's administration was a low point, and most of the major issues we are dealing with such as Police Scotland were instituted on his watch.

Not that you would find it in the media who almost entirely hate the SNP... There were 244,504 crimes recorded by the police in Scotland in 2017-18. This is the second lowest level of recorded crime since 1974.

But I think this is going off topic...

 

[Kite159]

No press release from a certain union yet expressing their absolute disappointment that the Dutch can carry on milking the Scottish rail users? (Or other words to that effect)

 

[mde]

The above being voted down just proves that it was political grandstanding

The whole thing was grandstanding unfortunately. The Rural Economy and Connectivity committee meeting this morning wasn't a great deal better - one member didn't seem to think leaves on the line was a real issue!

 

[gsnedders]

From that link the SNP amendment was tied 60 - 60 which meant the presiding officer had the casting vote and he voted it down. The amendment detail is not listed on that site but is copied below;

"As an amendment to motion S5M-14720 in the name of Colin Smyth (ScotRail Break Clause), leave out from “believes” to end and insert “notes that the punctuality and reliability of ScotRail’s services continue to be below the Scottish Government contractual performance targets; recognises that both responsible parties for the effective operation of Scotland’s rail network, Network Rail and ScotRail, are delivering as their combined priority the implementation of a suite of system-wide actions as recommended in the review by Nick Donovan; further recognises that the Scottish Government has secured the right for a public sector body to bid to run Scotland’s rail services, but also notes that the majority of rail performance problems in Scotland are the direct responsibility of Network Rail, and calls on the UK Government to take the opportunity in its Rail Review to devolve authority for rail infrastructure to Scotland, so that responsibility for this rests with the Scottish Parliament."

The above being voted down just proves that it was political grandstanding

Note that the casting vote, as with Westminster, is done by convention, rather than the presiding officer having any actual power, roughly following the rule to always vote in favour of the status quo and continuing discussions (so any amendment is voted against).

 

[380101]

Not that you would find it in the media who almost entirely hate the SNP... There were 244,504 crimes recorded by the police in Scotland in 2017-18. This is the second lowest level of recorded crime since 1974.

But I think this is going off topic...

It may be the 2nd lowest level since 1974, but alot of crimes are self generated by police ie; they come across a crime being committed whilst on patrol - mostly road traffic and minor public order offences. The less time cops spend on patrol, the less crime gets detected and recorded. Also, alot of crime goes unreported due to the belief that the police will do nothing about it, so no point in reporting it.