South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Cardiff123]

There are images of the Flourish statement and it was in the final invitation to tender.

So you mean the Wales Millennium Centre in the Bay, not the Millennium (now Principality) Stadium in front of Central station.
There's a pretty big difference between the two locations.
Again, the only thing that's confirmed and costed in the Bay is a new station at Loudon Square and The Flourish. Anything else is hope and aspiration.

 

[Envoy]

I am all for providing the best public transport system and see rail as the best way for shifting large numbers of people efficiently. Like the majority on this post, I was alarmed at the prospect of seeing the streets of Cardiff dug up for a tram system that would also operate over the present local rail network. As Gareth Marston has pointed out - everything in the centre of the city is within a 10 minute walk of a railway station. However, where I disagree with Gareth and others is on the situation regarding roads.

In the early 1990’s warnings were given that the M4 would be jammed at Newport due to the 2 lane each way tunnel at a very busy point on the M4. Rhodri Morgan came to power and threw out the previous Conservative Party proposals for a south of Newport new M4. He said that a lot of traffic was going to Cwmbran - hence the building of a new road above the eastern portal of the tunnel. Whilst that has proved useful, it has not addressed the main problem with the M4 around Newport. So, here we are, all these years later and we constantly have massive jams on this section of the M4. I fully support the Black Route for a south of Newport M4 and had Rhodri Morgan not cancelled it back in the 90’s, it would have been built for far less than the present price and today, we would probably have had a fresh load of money to spend on the so called Metro. I also realise that vast amounts of money have been poured into the Clydach gorge section the A465 west of Gilwern. The A465 has been notorious for accidents and I fully support the dualling of this highway. The M4 around Newport also has a high accident rate due to the high volume of traffic and its hilly and twisting nature. Failure to build a new M4 to the south is going to result in more deaths and the delays will impact the economy across the whole of southern Wales. Labour’s spending on highways has not been good. Witness the fact that they have still not built the Eastern Bay Link in SE Cardiff and when they built the recent 1 mile bit, they did not build a flyover to take through traffic coming out of the Butetown tunnel - as was originally intended.

I note that the Newport section of the M4 would be carrying east-west traffic. Whilst I am pleased to see the new Hitachi Inter City Express Trains enter service, I note that trains to be used on the Cardiff > Bristol > Bath > Salisbury > Southampton > Portsmouth route will see a downgrade from 158’s to old Thames Turbo commuter trains (165/6’s). Whilst these will offer more seats (jammed in as 5 across) and become 5 coach trains, they are hardly the wonderful trains that one would expect to link these major cities and induce traffic off the roads.
Likewise, Cross Country will no doubt continue to use inadequate 2 or 3 coach 170’s on the Cardiff > Newport > Gloucester > Birmingham > Nottingham route. These will be even more overcrowded (& slower) once the new Worcester Parkway station opens.( At one time, south Wales had direct Inter City Trains that continued to the north-east).

If the Welsh Government fail to give the go-ahead to the black route M4, it will be electoral suicide - even in Labour heartlands. You can monitor the traffic on the M4 at Newport by clicking this link:>
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5751314,-2.9345584,13z/data=!5m1!1e1

 

[Gareth Marston]

If the Welsh Government fail to give the go-ahead to the black route M4, it will be electoral suicide - even in Labour heartlands.

Just because something is perceived as popular doesn't mean its the right thing to do or the best thing for those who think its the right thing to do. If the only argument to build this road is that South Walian road users need patting on the head and told something they want to hear then in some ways the people of South Wales will deserve to be left even further behind modern city regions that have fully functioning urban transit networks around them.

 

[uxm]

So you mean the Wales Millennium Centre in the Bay, not the Millennium (now Principality) Stadium in front of Central station.
There's a pretty big difference between the two locations.
Again, the only thing that's confirmed and costed in the Bay is a new station at Loudon Square and The Flourish. Anything else is hope and aspiration.

There are images:

 

[Llanigraham]

Right in front of the Millenium stadium the network will expand further.

Really??
I have seen no mention of this in any of the publications. Perhaps you could provide a link to this "proposal"?

 

[Llanigraham]

There are images: View attachment 55134

Err??
That isn't where the map shows the Flourish "station" is going to be.

 

[krus_aragon]

There are images: View attachment 55134

There are indeed images, and the planned light rail extension to the Wales Milennium Centre is well known and undisputed. But when you said:

Right in front of the Millenium stadium the network will expand further.

Both Cardiff123 and I (possibly others) thought you were talking about the rugby stadium next to Cardiff Central. Now you've cleared it up, though.

 

[uxm]

There are indeed images, and the planned light rail extension to the Wales Milennium Centre is well known and undisputed. But when you said:


Both Cardiff123 and I (possibly others) thought you were talking about the rugby stadium next to Cardiff Central. Now you've cleared it up, though.

I got really confused I thought you were disputing the existence of the Flourish Station.

 

[uxm]

There are indeed images, and the planned light rail extension to the Wales Milennium Centre is well known and undisputed. But when you said:


Both Cardiff123 and I (possibly others) thought you were talking about the rugby stadium next to Cardiff Central. Now you've cleared it up, though.

My bad I accidentally said Stadium instead of Centre.

 

[uxm]

Deleted

 

[uxm]

There are plans to extend the network in the future as states by Ken Skates : "The Metro Vehicles will use a technology often referred to as Tram-Train. They will operate under Heavy Rail regulations on conventional railway, but will be capable of use in Light Rail (or Tram) mode for extendibility. To ensure all bidders offered a future–proof solution from the outset, the contract requires a short section of on-street running in Cardiff Bay. This is intended as a trial with a view to utilising this increasing flexibility to then expand the network in future."

 

[CardiffKid]

Sorry to go around in circles:

These are the new stations:

Brand new
Gabalfa
Flourish - Will replace Cardiff Bay and has been hinted at being called Cardiff Bay - because no one knows what/where "The Flourish" is
Loudoun Square
Cardiff Parkway - Whilst happening, is being paid for by the private sector, so not technically part of the metro.
Miskin - *
Crwys Road
Llanwern - *
Relocated
Treforest Estate

* Have those been confirmed? A station on Newport Road and Ely Mill were considered at the same time, I've not seen anything concrete since this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39733717

 

[Cardiff123]

Sorry to go around in circles:



* Have those been confirmed? A station on Newport Road and Ely Mill were considered at the same time, I've not seen anything concrete since this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39733717

We are going round in circles now. The stations you highlight have not been confirmed.
uxm is obviously not understanding what we're trying to say in distinguishing between politicians rhetoric on future extensions and in reality what has actually been costed for, planned and confirmed as happening.

 

[oglord]

Further to my point it will be part of the South Wales Metro and will be served by Metro trains. View attachment 55140

Quoting Wikipedia to prove a point should lead to instant loss of argument.
Oh and by the way, the SWM from STJ is part of the Great Western Main Line.

 

[uxm]

Here are the new stations for the Central Metro:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/you-need-know-new-stations-14804313
Brand New
Loudoun square: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudoun_Square_railway_station
Crwys Road:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crwys_Road_railway_station
Gabalfa:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabalfa_railway_station
Relocated
Cardiff Bay (formerly known as The Flourish):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Bay_(The_Flourish)_railway_station
Treforest Estate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treforest_Estate_railway_station

 

[S-Bahn]

Here's my thoughts on the Cardiff area Metro - totally wishful thinking! (Valley lines services, Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale line).

1. Ignore the current proposal entirely.
2. Electrify all the routes and use 4 car EMU's equivalent to Class 350/Class 700 Desiro. If no electrification is not taking place, go diesel in the interim with 4 car 150's/175's/modified 319's until feasible Hydrogen powered trains are readily available.
3. Carry on with the extension from Cardiff Bay station into the bay and use a tram train, but keep it as it's existing closed line to Queen Street.
4. Add a Swansea to Bristol TM/Weston SM hourly service, or extend the existing Cardiff to Taunton service.
5. Preferably have an electric shuttle service between Wales and Bristol TM.
6. Demolish Pontypridd station and rebuild it with 4 through platforms and 1 bay platform. There is room for the lines to merge to 3 south of Ponty station and have a passing loop between Pontypridd and Treforest for extra resilience.

With all the new office developments around Cardiff Central and Bristol TM, it's clearly the case that increasing number of people will be looking to commute to these locations.

 

[uxm]

Here's my thoughts on the Cardiff area Metro - totally wishful thinking! (Valley lines services, Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale line).

1. Ignore the current proposal entirely.
2. Electrify all the routes and use 4 car EMU's equivalent to Class 350/Class 700 Desiro. If no electrification is not taking place, go diesel in the interim with 4 car 150's/175's/modified 319's until feasible Hydrogen powered trains are readily available.
3. Carry on with the extension from Cardiff Bay station into the bay and use a tram train, but keep it as it's existing closed line to Queen Street.
4. Add a Swansea to Bristol TM/Weston SM hourly service, or extend the existing Cardiff to Taunton service.
5. Preferably have an electric shuttle service between Wales and Bristol TM.

With all the new office developments around Cardiff Central and Bristol TM, it's clearly the case that increasing number of people will be looking to commute to these locations.

Would've been good if electrification didn't get cancelled between Cardiff and Swansea.

 

[Dai Corner]

Apologies for the 'backseat moderation' but could I suggest we keep this thread for facts about what we know is planned and start a new one in the Speculative Ideas forum if we want to discuss what they should have done or should do in future?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/speculative-ideas.172/

 

[krus_aragon]

6. Demolish Pontypridd station and rebuild it with 4 through platforms and 1 bay platform. There is room for the lines to merge to 3 south of Ponty station and have a passing loop between Pontypridd and Treforest for extra resilience.

Argh, no!!!

I have a soft spot for Pontypridd station's architecture. If you were suggesting restoring the station to something like its previous island layout, I'd be supporting you all the way.

(I'm guessing that your suggestion of extra through lines is to deal with out-of-course running due to late running trains, like at Queen Street. Am I right?)

 

[uxm]

Argh, no!!!

I have a soft spot for Pontypridd station's architecture. If you were suggesting restoring the station to something like its previous island layout, I'd be supporting you all the way.

(I'm guessing that your suggestion of extra through lines is to deal with out-of-course running due to late running trains, like at Queen Street. Am I right?)

It doesn't need that many platforms. I believe the current tram-train and FLIRT plans are more than we could imagine.

 

[uxm]

Here's my thoughts on the Cardiff area Metro - totally wishful thinking! (Valley lines services, Maesteg line and Ebbw Vale line).

1. Ignore the current proposal entirely.
2. Electrify all the routes and use 4 car EMU's equivalent to Class 350/Class 700 Desiro. If no electrification is not taking place, go diesel in the interim with 4 car 150's/175's/modified 319's until feasible Hydrogen powered trains are readily available.
3. Carry on with the extension from Cardiff Bay station into the bay and use a tram train, but keep it as it's existing closed line to Queen Street.
4. Add a Swansea to Bristol TM/Weston SM hourly service, or extend the existing Cardiff to Taunton service.
5. Preferably have an electric shuttle service between Wales and Bristol TM.
6. Demolish Pontypridd station and rebuild it with 4 through platforms and 1 bay platform. There is room for the lines to merge to 3 south of Ponty station and have a passing loop between Pontypridd and Treforest for extra resilience.

With all the new office developments around Cardiff Central and Bristol TM, it's clearly the case that increasing number of people will be looking to commute to these locations.

These plans are horrible and even MTR who messed up their bid wouldn't even do that. It would be an instant loss.

 

[MarkyT]

Pontypridd station is a Grade 2 listed building. Good luck with demolishing that! -
https://cadwpublic-api.azurewebsites.net/reports/listedbuilding/FullReport?lang=en&id=13525

Name of Property : Pontypridd Railway Station Main Platform including buildings and canopy

The High Street bridge under the railway is also listed -
https://cadwpublic-api.azurewebsites.net/reports/listedbuilding/FullReport?lang=en&id=13526

Name of Property : Railway Bridge beneath Pontypridd Railway Station

 

[Gareth Marston]

Right in front of the Millenium stadium the network will expand further.

There are no rail lines pre existing or planned "in front of the Milenium stadium" as it was renamed the Principlaity Stadium

 

[uxm]

There are no rail lines pre existing or planned "in front of the Milenium stadium" as it was renamed the Principlaity Stadium

No, I already corrected it in a newer post, I accidentally said stadium instead of centre.

 

[S-Bahn]

Argh, no!!!

I have a soft spot for Pontypridd station's architecture. If you were suggesting restoring the station to something like its previous island layout, I'd be supporting you all the way.

(I'm guessing that your suggestion of extra through lines is to deal with out-of-course running due to late running trains, like at Queen Street. Am I right?)

As a former regular commuter from that station it was clearly designed for a different era, purpose, and should be replaced and upgraded on the basis that it's at an important junction. You're correct regarding the purpose of the extra lines!

 

[S-Bahn]

These plans are horrible and even MTR who messed up their bid wouldn't even do that. It would be an instant loss.

Why? The main concern of myself and fellow commuters is the capacity of the trains and requiring extra coaches particularly at peak times. Most of the time, the frequency of the service isn't an issue (certainly not between Cardiff and Ponty).

I don't consider a tram-train with no toilet to be an upgrade even for a freight wagon with a British Leyland bus welded to it (you can tell I really hate the pacers!)..

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why? The main concern of myself and fellow commuters is the capacity of the trains and requiring extra coaches particularly at peak times. Most of the time, the frequency of the service isn't an issue (certainly not between Cardiff and Ponty).

I don't consider a tram-train with no toilet to be an upgrade even for a freight wagon with a British Leyland bus welded to it (you can tell I really hate the pacers!)..

but there a better standing environment than a Pacer ......but people thought they'd said specifically they wanted a seat.....

 

[uxm]

Why? The main concern of myself and fellow commuters is the capacity of the trains and requiring extra coaches particularly at peak times. Most of the time, the frequency of the service isn't an issue (certainly not between Cardiff and Ponty).

I don't consider a tram-train with no toilet to be an upgrade even for a freight wagon with a British Leyland bus welded to it (you can tell I really hate the pacers!)..

The Taff valley needed light rail extensive studies showed this, the CityLinks are only on the taff valleys and were needed and are better than heavy rail for the area.

 

[Cardiff123]

The Taff valley needed light rail extensive studies showed this, the CityLinks are only on the taff valleys and were needed and are better than heavy rail for the area.

When stating things as fact or making claims on these forums, it would be really helpful if you could provide weblinks to evidence / news stories to back up your claims and arguments. This does not include Wikipedia.
E.g. in this case, provide links to the 'extensive studies' that claim that the Taff Valleys need 'light rail' and that the City Link Metro Vehicles will be 'better' than the Stadler FLIRTS the Rhymney Valley is getting.

Without evidence to back up your claims, your statements are just your own opinions.

 

[uxm]

When stating things as fact or making claims on these forums, it would be really helpful if you could provide weblinks to evidence / news stories to back up your claims and arguments. This does not include Wikipedia.
E.g. in this case, provide links to the 'extensive studies' that claim that the Taff Valleys need 'light rail' and that the City Link Metro Vehicles will be 'better' than the Stadler FLIRTS the Rhymney Valley is getting.

Without evidence to back up your claims, your statements are just your own opinions.

https://freshwater-uk.com/news/south-wales-metro-needs-tram-based-achieve-full-potential

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-opinion/south-wales-metro-needs-based-9774875
There are also extensive reports that can be found on the Welsh Government website and reports that you can acquire by contacting Mark Barry, I hope you also understand that only 1 section of the valleys is getting LRVs and most of the network will remain as heavy rail.