Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[northwichcat]

Best of waiting til the end of the year when they go off lease.

While I think the lease end date shown in the franchise agreement is 1/1/2019, there's also a mention that Northern cannot return off-lease units until replacement units are in unrestricted revenue earning service, so they need at least 17 x 331s in revenue earning service before the 323s are returned regardless of the date given.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure someone must have pointed this out by now - apologies if so as I haven't read the full thread.

What happens when a battery powered unit arrives at a non-wired terminus, lets say Windermere. Inbound service delayed, so the turnaround time is down to 5 minutes.

Obviously, this isn't long enough to do a substantial amount of battery charging. Does the service get delayed until the unit is charged? I can see that being a PR disaster.

I would hope if Porterbrook are using Windermere as the example route for their hybrid 350s that they would not use anywhere near 100% of the battery power on a run between Oxenholme and Windermere so there aren't delays due to recharging or the risk of a train being stranded because of a signalling problem on the branch.

 

[Class37.4]

Battery power for Windermere I think we will wait a see on that. BBC news has just been on about hydrogen trains showing the Alstom unit in Germany and then Grayling was on expecting to see hydrogen trains in the UK fairly soon.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Battery power for Windermere I think we will wait a see on that. BBC news has just been on about hydrogen trains showing the Alstom unit in Germany and then Grayling was on expecting to see hydrogen trains in the UK fairly soon.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that, to be honest...

 

[jonesy3001]

think 507021 might have to add the 323s to the list if they're hanging around for a bit longer but when they go for the C6 exams will they be going back in the new colours or plain white?

 

[Chester1]

I'm sure someone must have pointed this out by now - apologies if so as I haven't read the full thread.

What happens when a battery powered unit arrives at a non-wired terminus, lets say Windermere. Inbound service delayed, so the turnaround time is down to 5 minutes.

Obviously, this isn't long enough to do a substantial amount of battery charging. Does the service get delayed until the unit is charged? I can see that being a PR disaster.

Battery powered 230s will have a range of 40 miles. Oxenholme to Windermere and back is much shorter than that so if 350s had the same range and used battery power for Airport services range shouldn't be an issue. Maybe Barrow services would require a battery with a range of 80 miles so only half a charge at Barrow would be neccessary? Clearly battery power adds a slight extra risk to time keeping but it should not be a significant issue if the timetable is not insanely tight.

I am not a 323 fan boy but I can see that retaining them for longer provides options for some 6 car services, making full use of Salford Crescent and Oxford Road platform length limits.

 

[507021]

think 507021 might have to add the 323s to the list if they're hanging around for a bit longer but when they go for the C6 exams will they be going back in the new colours or plain white?

It hasn't been confirmed they're staying long term, so I'll hold off adding them for now.

 

[Greybeard33]

Battery powered 230s will have a range of 40 miles. Oxenholme to Windermere and back is much shorter than that so if 350s had the same range and used battery power for Airport services range shouldn't be an issue. Maybe Barrow services would require a battery with a range of 80 miles so only half a charge at Barrow would be neccessary? Clearly battery power adds a slight extra risk to time keeping but it should not be a significant issue if the timetable is not insanely tight.

The franchise requirement is for only four services daily from Windermere to Manchester, but an hourly service to Oxenholme. So each diagram has to include multiple workings from Windermere to Oxenholme and back, before the return working to Manchester. The round trip to Oxenholme takes nearly an hour, leaving only a few minutes under the wires at Oxenholme for recharging. A battery range of much more than 40 miles would be needed to work such a diagram. Unless two units were used alternately, with one recharging in a siding at Oxenholme while the other worked to Windermere and back - complicated and inefficient.

I doubt that Porterbrook is planning for battery recharging at the country end of an unelectrified branch. That would require substantial infrastructure investment for an "extension lead" from the electrified main line to deliver enough power. The local mains power distribution network would typically not have sufficient capacity.

The Porterbrook press release, https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...unces-batteryflex-in-green-great-britain-week only mentions the Lakes line specifically, not the Furness line:

With the addition of the latest battery technology, Porterbrook is confident that the 350/2 BatteryFLEX would be able to match, or outperform, diesel trains on existing non-electrified routes, particularly in key corridors across the North of England.

Mary Grant, CEO of Porterbrook, said:
...
“We believe this green technology could have a huge impact across the country, delivering cleaner travel on our rail network, including on picturesque routes like the Lakes Line.”

Porterbrook has modelled energy and power demands for routes such as the Windermere branch, where a BatteryFLEX version of the Class 350/2 fleet would eliminate diesel use on non-electrified lines, whilst maintaining the ability of these highly reliable trains to operate using overhead electrical wires.

 

[jonesy3001]

Ah well ,only 143 to go plus the cascades to come in;

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/northern-clocks-up-100th-refurbished-train-in-traffic

 

[1179_Clee2]

Ah well ,only 143 to go plus the cascades to come in;

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/northern-clocks-up-100th-refurbished-train-in-traffic

The LIAR magazine publishing rubbish AGAIN.

Northern have 100 repainted trains NOT 100 refurbished trains, see the Northern refurbished list by @507021.
(for example) RAIL claims 32 refurbished Class 319s, some of them still have First Capitol Connect interiors

 

[PHILIPE]

Ah well ,only 143 to go plus the cascades to come in;

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/northern-clocks-up-100th-refurbished-train-in-traffic

There are no 143s to go as Northern don't have any. Do you mean 142s/144s

 

[jonesy3001]

There are no 143s to go as Northern don't have any. Do you mean 142s/144s

143 northern units to be refreshed.

 

[Mollman]

The LIAR magazine publishing rubbish AGAIN.

Northern have 100 repainted trains NOT 100 refurbished trains, see the Northern refurbished list by @507021.
(for example) RAIL claims 32 refurbished Class 319s, some of them still have First Capitol Connect interiors

I did wonder considering that only 1x158 has been fully refurbished so far.

 

[PHILIPE]

143 northern units to be refreshed.

But Northern haven't got any 143s so how can they be refreshed

 

[59CosG95]

But Northern haven't got any 143s so how can they be refreshed

Bit mixed-up I think there @PHILIPE - of the Northern units, 143 of them are to be refreshed.

 

[Domh245]

But Northern haven't got any 143s so how can they be refreshed

As in, there is a total number of 143 units that are unrefreshed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But Northern haven't got any 143s so how can they be refreshed

When you said that the first time, I just assumed you'd forgotten to put the in... apparently not!

 

[PHILIPE]

When you said that the first time, I just assumed you'd forgotten to put the in... apparently not!

Taking things too seriously.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Well we are on page 143..

 

[deltic08]

I'm sure someone must have pointed this out by now - apologies if so as I haven't read the full thread.

What happens when a battery powered unit arrives at a non-wired terminus, lets say Windermere. Inbound service delayed, so the turnaround time is down to 5 minutes.

Obviously, this isn't long enough to do a substantial amount of battery charging. Does the service get delayed until the unit is charged? I can see that being a PR disaster.

All this uncertainty and p*****g about when electrification for the branch was straightforward. Screw Grayling. Parliament should just reverse his decision and electrify.

 

[507021]

156423 has returned from Wolverton.

 

[jonesy3001]

156423 has returned from Wolverton.

Anything gone the other way and what units are out and about being refreshed?

 

[507021]

Anything gone the other way and what units are out and about being refreshed?

I don't know I'm afraid.

 

[Class37.4]

All this uncertainty and p*****g about when electrification for the branch was straightforward. Screw Grayling. Parliament should just reverse his decision and electrify.

Well yes lets have more NR electrification ridiculously over budget and years late.

 

[Mollman]

It is interesting to see how quickly West Midlands Rail are applying the interim 'Tango' livery to stock whilst Northern haven't bothered even applying TOC names to non-refurbished units.

 

[northwichcat]

It is interesting to see how quickly West Midlands Rail are applying the interim 'Tango' livery to stock whilst Northern haven't bothered even applying TOC names to non-refurbished units.

Apparently Arriva don't want to put their brand on non-refurbished units because they think they are a disgrace.

 

[43096]

Apparently Arriva don't want to put their brand on non-refurbished units because they think they are a disgrace.

They’ve got that the wrong way round then! It would be quite hard to come up with something more cheap and nasty than the old Northern, but Arriva have, astonishingly, done just that.

 

[Liverpool 507]

Two presumably Class 156 moves down to Wolverton tomorrow morning. One from Newton Heath and the other from Heaton.

 

[Class37.4]

Apparently Arriva don't want to put their brand on non-refurbished units because they think they are a disgrace.

Well they are however of course many don’t think the refurbed trains are that great although a lot seems to revolve around the 3+2 seating on the 150’s but it seems like right choice to me the problem being they are currently working services they shoudnt be in the long term, and the choice of a flat fabric.

 

[geml90]

On a refurbished 156 to/from Darlington today (normally a Pacer) the panels and trim didn't look great as gaps have opened up between the newly painted bits. The PIS / announcements worked in one direction only. It was warm and comfortable enough, even though a Pacer feels like it has a bit more leg room? The Northern site mentions LED lighting, but they look like normal tubes?

I think the 156s used by Greater Anglia have a better finish and are more airy (possibly shorter seats?), even though their refurbishment was a few years ago?