Global warming is a big issue amongst non-railway-enthusiasts and there are big changes in society, like zero-emission cars and smart meters, so that future generations are be saved. One day, this got me thinking, whilst commuter lines are receiving new EMUs to replace the second-generation DMUs as part of their ambitious 'electrification scheme', could we see heritage railways disappear all because of saving the planet?
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The end of Heritage Railways?
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I dont think so. Moving to zero emission cars and smart meters are all part of the bigger picture(environmental costs aside from creating battery and so on and so forth) but it could still be possible to be carbon neutral as it were by doing something to offset the emissions created by steam or diesel motive power.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's an interesting question. If they switched to wood pellet burning, of course, that's carbon neutral. And maybe 4 steam trains a day isn't doing a lot with particulates.
UP13
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Would wood generate enough heat for a typical 20th century locomotive?
I wouldnt think so. Remember the "switch" to zero emission is only the banning of new petrol and diesel car sales. All existing cars remain on the road.
Some vehicles like busses and lorries may never be able to switch.
The amount that a heritage line contributes must be absolutely tiny.worst case they'd just have to offset the carbon with a suitable company.
Some vehicles like busses and lorries may never be able to switch.
The amount that a heritage line contributes must be absolutely tiny.worst case they'd just have to offset the carbon with a suitable company.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At 25mph? I'd imagine so.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd reckon most city buses will be electric within 10 years and all of them within 20.
NSEFAN
Established Member
It's unlikely that heritage railways will be banned from using steam and diesel traction. Their contribution to global pollution is neglible compared to busy mainlines, aviation and the roads.
There could possibly be issues in sourcing coal in the far future, however locomotives could be modified or converted to burn wood pellets or some kind of biofuel. The latter could also be used for heritage diesels, again maybe with some small modifications.
Esker-pades
Established Member
That could describe a lot of the current cabinet members.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One of two things will happen - diesel will be extinct from the national network within 20 years, or if it isn't there will be mass closures on the grounds that buses are cheaper and more environmentally friendly as they will all be electric by then.
I think various announcements have only mentioned 'diesel only' vehicles on road and rail, allowing hybrids/bi-modes etc to continue to be sold. It should be fairly easy to apply new automotive based power-trains and energy storage to new or older rail vehicles, not unlike how developing bus and lorry tech was leveraged in 1960s 1st gen DMUs. Rail need not be left behind.
As to heritage, options could include wood pellets or oil firing which could use eco-derived fuel too. While coal might still remain 'legal' to use in such limited heritage applications, the withering of the extraction and distribution chain as most other uses are phased out will probably make it increasingly difficult and expensive to actually obtain. An organisation called Coalition for Sustainable Rail in the USA is testing torrified biofuel pellets in steam locomotives with success. So far the fuel has performed well in a miniature locomotives, and full size testing was supposed to be underway this summer.
https://csrail.org/newsroom/2017/11...-and-nrri-look-ahead-to-standard-gauge-trials
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Wood or other biomass pellets for the steam locomotives, and vegetable oil for the diesels.
Indigo Soup
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Hydrocarbon fuels are sufficiently useful that I suspect they'll always be around, even if they become synthetically produced for niche applications.
In the same way that we still have vintage cars pumping out completely unfiltered emissions, and dare I say horses with their dreadful (and often solid) emissions, we will have heritage railways for as long as there is a market for them.
I do, however, look forward to the first electrified heritage railway (not including tramways or Mr Volks).
I do, however, look forward to the first electrified heritage railway (not including tramways or Mr Volks).
thaitransit
Member
Yet in Australia brand new DMUs are still being built and electrification of old lines isn't on the cards at all. In fact 100 miles of overhead wires was pulled down in 2006 and all services are diesel locomotive hauled or DMU today on a major line in the east of Victoria
The regional rail link line is a brand new line that is non electrified despite allowing trains upto every 2 minutes in major innercity areas of Melbourne.
Electric trains in Australia for long distance services are considered unviable with only Queensland still running long distance electric trains on a 700 km long single track mainline. But de electrification is possible in the future as only 2 trains a day each way run using electric power for almost 500 km.
Not sure why the UK tries to electrify long distance lines as it is so costly and if your using 1500 Volt DC overheads like most of Australia does it means substations every 10km or so.
The regional rail link line is a brand new line that is non electrified despite allowing trains upto every 2 minutes in major innercity areas of Melbourne.
Electric trains in Australia for long distance services are considered unviable with only Queensland still running long distance electric trains on a 700 km long single track mainline. But de electrification is possible in the future as only 2 trains a day each way run using electric power for almost 500 km.
Not sure why the UK tries to electrify long distance lines as it is so costly and if your using 1500 Volt DC overheads like most of Australia does it means substations every 10km or so.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
We don't use 1500VDC, low-voltage DC is for tramways. We use 25kV AC, which is much more suitable.
Diesel is filthy and is to be discouraged. We need, as a society as a whole, to stop burning dead dinosaurs altogether.
thaitransit
Member
Queensland uses 25kv AC and it has horrible dead sections all over the place where the train loses power for a minute and slows down alot before getting back under the power. The 1500 volt DC system doesn't have these gaps.
In Australia even a train with a 70 year old diesel locomotive that blows out black smoke as it runs along is considered far more kind to the environment that yet more cars clogging up the roads because they refuse to catch the train which is far cheaper and often quicker than driving in especially at peak times.
But there again Victoria does still operate a mainline route that still uses double line block signalling that dates from the opening of the line in the 1860s!
In Australia even a train with a 70 year old diesel locomotive that blows out black smoke as it runs along is considered far more kind to the environment that yet more cars clogging up the roads because they refuse to catch the train which is far cheaper and often quicker than driving in especially at peak times.
But there again Victoria does still operate a mainline route that still uses double line block signalling that dates from the opening of the line in the 1860s!
But Australia has one of the most climate change denying, coal extract and export pushing (and subsidising), environmentally destructive regimes in power on planet Earth, and they were at it long before Trump, so it's hardly surprising. UK mainline electrification is 25kV AC OHLE by default which requires many fewer substations. The former Southern region south of London, which was electrified much earlier, is largely 600 to 750V DC supplied by 3rd rail.
thaitransit
Member
Thats true its impressive the scale of the rail operations to support that coal export through the port of Newcastle. Its a mile long diesel hauled freight trains every 10 mins 24/7. Usually with at least 3 or 4 locomotives at the front.
Unfortunately our national government is very pro coal. The state governments are pro renewalable energy and are working to shut down coal often at the risk of massive power outages due to lack of supply during extreme weather events eg days on end above 40 degrees. In fact our weather office has stated that 98% of Australia has an above 80% chance of having the hottest and dryist summer on record. In some areas its allready under way with weeks of temperatures around 45 degrees C
Unfortunately our national government is very pro coal. The state governments are pro renewalable energy and are working to shut down coal often at the risk of massive power outages due to lack of supply during extreme weather events eg days on end above 40 degrees. In fact our weather office has stated that 98% of Australia has an above 80% chance of having the hottest and dryist summer on record. In some areas its allready under way with weeks of temperatures around 45 degrees C
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
25kV does have long gaps, but there is no reason for the train to slow through them, it should continue at roughly the same speed. A train can coast a long way.
thaitransit
Member
Probably too long a gap and alot are on up hill grades.
The worst one is south of bundaberg Queensland it takes 10 mins for the power to come back on and the train drops from 100mph to around 15mph before the power is restored. During which the aircon is off and lights off except for the emergency battery powered lights. I was wondering if the train would actually come to stand but luckily the power came back on.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
10 *minutes*?
That sounds like a power outage, not a neutral section. Neutral sections typically result in the train being without power for maybe 10 seconds or so.
thaitransit
Member
I wouldn't be surprised as the overhead on that section isn't well maintained and such long gaps are common. Orginally this system was to be 1500 volt DC on a mixture of steel (urban areas) and timber (regional areas) gantrys in the 1940s but as the project was delayed until the early 1980s the whole scope was changed and 25kv AC was used a 1st for Australia at the time.
Biocoal (briquettes) might be a more long term solution with a UK company recently revealing a method to use any biowaste and turn it into an industrial grade coal suitable for powerplants. I personally reckon there will be some experiments from some lines if an enterprising company offered it as a trial.
The heritage lines in the UK only count for about 25k tonnes a year in coal anyway, so the whole market is a carbon drop in the ocean.
The heritage lines in the UK only count for about 25k tonnes a year in coal anyway, so the whole market is a carbon drop in the ocean.
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