The Worst Thing To Ever Run On The Network

[yorksrob]

But you're missing the point - LUL have gone for a completely different seating configuration.

The units the OP mentioned, such as the 306, 502, 503 had seating not dis-similar to the EPBs, the difference was though they had 1/3 2/3 sliding doors, plenty of standing room, far better access and no need to clamber over other people's knees when boarding or alighting.

That's still quite a bit of waiting around to get in and out. If you were sat by the window, you'd still have to do a bit of clambouring over people as well.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Modern era - Class 180. A ghastly train, poorly built, and unloved by nearly everyone.

Operationally, I agree they're an absolute disaster... but unloved by nearly everyone? Compared to their contemporaries (the Voyagers) they're far nicer to travel on. If you could have a unit with the passenger environment of the 175/180 but the reliability of the 22x, you'd have a damn good long-distance diesel unit.

Anyway, I'm going to nominate the 150s. Not simply because they're bad, but because the alternatives available at the time (151 and 210) would've been far superior.

Dishonourable mention for 390s too, tacky design with dark interiors all because the beardy charlatan likes aeroplanes.

 

[krus_aragon]

in that case can i vote for a horse drawn cauldron wagon please?

Sure,you could hitch it up to the following from page 2 of the thread:

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Cycloped, the horse-powered locomotive that failed miserably at the Rainhill Trials in 1829:

 

[K.o.R]

This is yet another thing that enthusiasts get all worked up about that 99.9999% of normals don't care about.

What? The noise and vibration of diesel engines under the floor, whether it's a DMU or a bus or a coach, makes me feel ill. I highly doubt I'm alone here. It's not so bad on a non-air-conditioned unit, strangely, so good old 150s are actually a nice surprise if I have to make a trip to the westcountry.

 

[Doomotron]

@yorksrob

I've done some research onto the EPBs, more specifically their interiors.

EPB (Flickr)

4COR (MattyP)


I see lots of similarities between these two interiors. The 4COR is from the 30s. Dark, very uncomfortable and honestly looks like a living room from 1946.

 

[yorksrob]

@yorksrob

I've done some research onto the EPBs, more specifically their interiors.

EPB (Flickr)
View attachment 53817
4COR (MattyP)
View attachment 53816

I see lots of similarities between these two interiors. The 4COR is from the 30s. Dark, very uncomfortable and honestly looks like a living room from 1946.

I've never travelled on the 4COR but it certainly doesn't look uncomfortable to me. Have you ever travelled on it ?

It also doesn't look particularly dark either. I think the wooden panelling and cream ceiling/bulkhead make both look very stylish.

You may also note that the EPB has somewhat cleaner lines and is less ornamental, as befits its late 1950's/60's origins.

 

[bramling]

@yorksrob

I've done some research onto the EPBs, more specifically their interiors.

EPB (Flickr)
View attachment 53817
4COR (MattyP)
View attachment 53816

I see lots of similarities between these two interiors. The 4COR is from the 30s. Dark, very uncomfortable and honestly looks like a living room from 1946.

Looks nice enough to me.

207017 was in service with more-or-less the same interior as the first photo well into the 2000s. In general many people travelling on it tended to remark how nice it was. I'd certainly take it over a class 700.

A lot of the issue with old trains is how they've been maintained over the years.

 

[Doomotron]

I've never travelled on the 4COR but it certainly doesn't look uncomfortable to me. Have you ever travelled on it ?

It also doesn't look particularly dark either. I think the wooden panelling and cream ceiling/bulkhead make both look very stylish.

Looks nice enough to me.

I have on the East Kent Railway. Bumby, with seats that have virtually no support whatsoever. And yes, wood panelling might have looked good in 1938 but definitely not now.

 

[yorksrob]

I have on the East Kent Railway. Bumby, with seats that have virtually no support whatsoever. And yes, wood panelling might have looked good in 1938 but definitely not now.

I think the wood panelling looks fine. Fashions come and go, but style is timeless.

I've travelled on hundreds of EPB's, thumpers, HAP's and phase 1 CIG's and I've always found their well sprung cushions the most comfortable standard class seats on the network.

 

[gingertom]

wood panelling might have looked good in 1938 but definitely not now.

might not pass modern fire safety regs either...

 

[bramling]

I have on the East Kent Railway. Bumby, with seats that have virtually no support whatsoever. And yes, wood panelling might have looked good in 1938 but definitely not now.

It's a personal taste thing. You probably wouldn't like the inside of my house!

Personally I'd take wood over the vile smelly plastic interior of a 700 anyday.

 

[xotGD]

That 4COR interior looks very stylish. Way better than the plastic we have to contend with today. And of course properly sprung seats.

 

[43096]

And of course properly sprung seats.

They would have needed the "properly sprung seats" as the bogie suspension was no doubt utterly useless.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I've never travelled on the 4COR but it certainly doesn't look uncomfortable to me. Have you ever travelled on it ?

It also doesn't look particularly dark either. I think the wooden panelling and cream ceiling/bulkhead make both look very stylish.

You may also note that the EPB has somewhat cleaner lines and is less ornamental, as befits its late 1950's/60's origins.

Back in 1972 I managed a trip on a 4-COR from Hastings to Eastbourne, it did seem absolutely ancient even back then compared to the mk1 based EMU we returned on, I was only 16 so probably couldn't appreciate its interior although looking at it now I find it quite ornate and classy although very much of its time. That EPB interior excepting the typical above seat southern hat/coat/luggage racks is virtually identical to the early batch of 304s we had up here, although judging by the picture it seems airier and considerably less drab than my memories of the LM AC units.

 

[alangla]

@yorksrob

I've done some research onto the EPBs, more specifically their interiors.

EPB (Flickr)
View attachment 53817
4COR (MattyP)
View attachment 53816

I see lots of similarities between these two interiors. The 4COR is from the 30s. Dark, very uncomfortable and honestly looks like a living room from 1946.

Then contrast that with a Class 303 from the same era.
On the recycling of motors etc, that means that you don't get any advances in technology in the intervening years. If that practice had continued, all new stock would have DC motors and we'd be building things like the 385 units with early thyristors. No regen brakes, no light weight AC motors etc.

 

[yorksrob]

Back in 1972 I managed a trip on a 4-COR from Hastings to Eastbourne, it did seem absolutely ancient even back then compared to the mk1 based EMU we returned on, I was only 16 so probably couldn't appreciate its interior although looking at it now I find it quite ornate and classy although very much of its time. That EPB interior excepting the typical above seat southern hat/coat/luggage racks is virtually identical to the early batch of 304s we had up here, although judging by the picture it seems airier and considerably less drab than my memories of the LM AC units.

Yes, the EPB shown is one of the later ones built to a BR design, so would have shared many standard characteristics with units from around the region. For me, the EPB interior seems less fussy and more modern than the COR, although that probably reflects my personal taste as a late 20th century boy.

 

[yorksrob]

Then contrast that with a Class 303 from the same era.
On the recycling of motors etc, that means that you don't get any advances in technology in the intervening years. If that practice had continued, all new stock would have DC motors and we'd be building things like the 385 units with early thyristors. No regen brakes, no light weight AC motors etc.

Again, absolutely not true. Whilst the Southern was inclined towards recycling, they were more than capable of incorporating new technology into builds where they saw it as beneficial, a notable example being the adoption of Electro Pneumatic Breaking from the EPB's onwards.

Those criticising the Southern for it's thriftyness should perhaps reflect on the fact that it was probably in the best financial shape of all the big four at the time of Nationalisation, something re-use of components undoubtedly would have helped it with.

 

[Journeyman]

I've travelled on hundreds of EPB's, thumpers, HAP's and phase 1 CIG's and I've always found their well sprung cushions the most comfortable standard class seats on the network.

Nah, they're completely the wrong shape. Soft is not automatically equivalent to comfortable. In any case, the suspension was so bad you'd get thrown out of your seat on a regular basis.

 

[Journeyman]

Again, absolutely not true. Whilst the Southern was inclined towards recycling, they were more than capable of incorporating new technology into builds where they saw it as beneficial, a notable example being the adoption of Electro Pneumatic Breaking from the EPB's onwards.

It was hardly "new technology" when they started using it! It had been around for decades by then! I'm of the opinion that Southern commuters were consistently short-changed and palmed off with junk that other regions wouldn't tolerate.

The 4-SUBs were air brake only, had no starting bells so needed guards to use flags and whistles, the control system was essentially unchanged since 1914 and had dangerous 600v circuits running practically everything, had no speedometers, and no batteries, so if there was a traction current failure, punters were plunged into darkness. And they lasted until 1983!!!

 

[bramling]

Nah, they're completely the wrong shape. Soft is not automatically equivalent to comfortable. In any case, the suspension was so bad you'd get thrown out of your seat on a regular basis.

Again, personal taste. I found all the Mk1 seating *very* comfortable, including the slightly less cushioned versions on the VEPs and phase-2 CIGs. Never found much wrong with the ride either.

 

[big all]

It was hardly "new technology" when they started using it! It had been around for decades by then! I'm of the opinion that Southern commuters were consistently short-changed and palmed off with junk that other regions wouldn't tolerate.

The 4-SUBs were air brake only, had no starting bells so needed guards to use flags and whistles, the control system was essentially unchanged since 1914 and had dangerous 600v circuits running practically everything, had no speedometers, and no batteries, so if there was a traction current failure, punters were plunged into darkness. And they lasted until 1983!!!

subs where brilliant all 650v contactors in the cab behind you nicely warming the cab
Potentiometer [resistance ]reducing line voltage to about 70v for control
clicking the ligthts on twice in the gaurds van causes the lighting relay in the cab behind you to go click click not quite a bell but -----
4x240v light bulbs in series running the headcode and cab light
8-10 70v bulbs for the train lights

 

[Mikey C]

Personally I found the EPB seats a weird shape, and excessively bouncy, even when refurbished. The VEPs to me seemed a significant step up in comfort (not my photos)

 

[Dai Corner]

Personally I found the EPB seats a weird shape, and excessively bouncy, even when refurbished. The VEPs to me seemed a significant step up in comfort (not my photos)

As a child I rather enjoyed bouncing up and down, the whole carriage in unison.

 

[43096]

As a child I rather enjoyed bouncing up and down, the whole carriage in unison.

Precisely - as a child. For adults who used them regularly the view would be different: they were *&#@.

 

[Ianigsy]

Cravens win DMU wise. The class 112/113 win as they not only rattled & were under-powered but the were scrapped very early.

My understanding being that they had a major design flaw in that the fuel tanks were fitted around the camshaft, so they had a tendency to burst into flames when anything worked loose from the camshaft and pierced the tank!

 

[yorksrob]

Nah, they're completely the wrong shape. Soft is not automatically equivalent to comfortable. In any case, the suspension was so bad you'd get thrown out of your seat on a regular basis.

As others on here have pointed out, there is an element of personal taste, but I simply cannot see how people can fail to prefer those nice well sprung cushions to most of the non-intercity stock at the time, let alone the sort of abominations that infest our network today.

I can't recall ever being "thrown out of my seat" on one. Perhaps the track was rougher on the Western division ?

 

[yorksrob]

It was hardly "new technology" when they started using it! It had been around for decades by then! I'm of the opinion that Southern commuters were consistently short-changed and palmed off with junk that other regions wouldn't tolerate.

The 4-SUBs were air brake only, had no starting bells so needed guards to use flags and whistles, the control system was essentially unchanged since 1914 and had dangerous 600v circuits running practically everything, had no speedometers, and no batteries, so if there was a traction current failure, punters were plunged into darkness. And they lasted until 1983!!!

Have you ever been on a 1st gen DMU ? With the exception of the Cross Country ones, basic is an understatement. Southern passengers weren't hard done by by a long chalk.

The SUB's at least hade some padding, in spite of their idiosyncracies.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I found the EPB seats a weird shape, and excessively bouncy, even when refurbished. The VEPs to me seemed a significant step up in comfort (not my photos)

Interestingly, from what I've read, most passengers at the time considered the harder seats of the VEP's to be a bit of a step backwards, although they were more suited to longer distance travel than their predecessors, the HAP's in other ways.

 

[yorksrob]

Precisely - as a child. For adults who used them regularly the view would be different: they were *&#@.

Adults who would prefer sitting on a plank maybe.

 

[43096]

Adults who would prefer sitting on a plank maybe.

Adults who would prefer sitting on a train with decent bogie suspension.