The Worst Thing To Ever Run On The Network

[krus_aragon]

Steam railmotors/railcars were a successful innovation that were more widely used than by just the GWR: The LNER also had their Sentinel railcars.

And the LNWR started using them quite early, circa 1908, iirc.

 

[Journeyman]

Same with early EMUs I think too - the 303s were ultra modern for their time but they bounced like mad at any sort of speed. The 320s with air suspension, individual door controls and high backed seats were like another world when they arrived. Must have been more extreme in places like Birmingham when the cross-city leapt from 1st gen DMUs to 323s

The jump from SUBs and EPBs to 508s and 455s was a bit underwhelming - they were not really much of an improvement, with their original horrible interiors. The SWT 455 refurbs were an amazing advance in quality, though. The poor sods on the South Eastern had to put up with the dreadful EPBs for ten years longer, but ended up with the Networkers. I know this is controversial, but I've always liked them and they were transformational.

 

[Mikey C]

The jump from SUBs and EPBs to 508s and 455s was a bit underwhelming - they were not really much of an improvement, with their original horrible interiors. The SWT 455 refurbs were an amazing advance in quality, though. The poor sods on the South Eastern had to put up with the dreadful EPBs for ten years longer, but ended up with the Networkers. I know this is controversial, but I've always liked them and they were transformational.

Yes, the Networkers looked like someone had given a bit of thought to passengers.

 

[matchmaker]

My understanding being that they had a major design flaw in that the fuel tanks were fitted around the camshaft, so they had a tendency to burst into flames when anything worked loose from the camshaft and pierced the tank!

Cardan shaft, not camshaft. Part of the transmission.

https://www.railcar.co.uk/topic/accidents/details/?accident=sandridge-1968

 

[47513 Severn]

Yes, the Networkers looked like someone had given a bit of thought to passengers.

I'm glad some others feel the same. I've always been a bit cautious about 'coming out' on my appreciation of the Networkers given the hate that is often directed at them.

I had a brief spell commuting from London to Tunbridge Wells and I always endeavoured to seek out the Networkers at peak times. When every seat is taken I found the Electrostars very claustrophobic, especially if I was sat next to the window at a table bay. The feeling of being trapped on all sides made me quite uncomfortable. On a Networker it is easy to get up and out of a fully occupied bay of four or six. This also makes it much easier to use all the seats without constant reshuffling of passengers at stops.

I still use them almost daily as I now work in Charlton. The only problem is usually internal cleanliness, particularly towards the end of the day, but that is very much down to the passengers. Short of having a fully equipped mobile cleaner on every train there is very little more Southeastern can do about that.

All in all a very good design, totally suited to their duties. I suspect their longevity will end up exceeding their illustrious predecessors.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Quite correct. Apologies required due to tired brain

Understood. Martin2345uk interpreted my meaning correctly.

 

[GrimShady]

Not being a from the south, why are Networkers hated?

 

[Journeyman]

Not being a from the south, why are Networkers hated?

I've no idea - it's a typical illogical enthusiast reaction. The Networkers were an incredible contrast to the dingy, battered piles of junk they replaced. The upgrade in quality was just amazing. They were significantly better than the Mark 3 based EMUs built up until then as well.

Suburban trains are never going to be glamorous, but the Networkers got a lot of the fundamentals right. Decent seat layout, wide doors, excellent window alignment, toilets for the first time on the services they operated, good heating, ventilation and lighting, and modern information systems.

Their introduction into service wasn't trouble-free, but they were the first trains of a new generation, and that's to be expected to some extent. They evolved into the Electrostar, which has been a huge success.

I'm a Londoner now living in Scotland, and I'm enjoying riding the 365s daily on the E&G. They're very good trains.

 

[Taunton]

The Networkers were an incredible contrast to the dingy, battered piles of junk they replaced. The upgrade in quality was just amazing. They were significantly better than the Mark 3 based EMUs built up until then as well.

Suburban trains are never going to be glamorous, but the Networkers got a lot of the fundamentals right. Decent seat layout, wide doors, excellent window alignment, toilets for the first time on the services they operated, good heating, ventilation and lighting, and modern information systems. ... I'm enjoying riding the 365s daily on the E&G. They're very good trains.

I understood that Chris Green, personally, had to have multiple engagements with the so-called professional designers on the Networker. Nonsenses they came up with like windows not aligned with the seats were just rejected and they were told to do it again. Not bad for a chap who did History at university.

 

[Journeyman]

I understood that Chris Green, personally, had to have multiple engagements with the so-called professional designers on the Networker. Nonsenses they came up with like windows not aligned with the seats were just rejected and they were told to do it again. Not bad for a chap who did History at university.

Sounds about right, that's very much his style. Chris Green is bit of a hero of mine. Apparently he fought tooth and nail to keep Pacers out of Scotland!

 

[yorksrob]

Not being a from the south, why are Networkers hated?

They had a reputation for teething troubles - which is probably a little unfair, given they were the first of their type.

On occasions I've been on them, they can sometimes look a bit grimey, which is probably partly down to their location.

They still seem quite futuristic to me internally though.

 

[Journeyman]

They had a reputation for teething troubles - which is probably a little unfair, given they were the first of their type.

Yeah - they were radically different to anything that went before them, so there were a lot of issues to iron out. The 1992 Tube Stock had similar problems at the time. Even a whole load of designs recognised as classics took a while to settle down, including 1938 Tube Stock and Routemaster buses, both of which ended up having exceptionally long lives.

They still seem quite futuristic to me internally though.

After 25 years in service with fairly minimal upgrades, that's a sure sign that the design is very good. A 25-year-old EPB always looked dreadfully old-fashioned and grim in comparison.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah - they were radically different to anything that went before them, so there were a lot of issues to iron out. The 1992 Tube Stock had similar problems at the time. Even a whole load of designs recognised as classics took a while to settle down, including 1938 Tube Stock and Routemaster buses, both of which ended up having exceptionally long lives.



After 25 years in service with fairly minimal upgrades, that's a sure sign that the design is very good. A 25-year-old EPB always looked dreadfully old-fashioned and grim in comparison.

Futuristic doesn't equate to comfort though. The seats still feel hard, even though they are less unusual in that now.

 

[Journeyman]

Futuristic doesn't equate to comfort though. The seats still feel hard, even though they are less unusual in that now.

Nah. EPBs were never comfortable. Soft doesn't equate to comfort either.

 

[yorksrob]

Nah. EPBs were never comfortable. Soft doesn't equate to comfort either.

I disagree. I found them perfectly comfortable. And I like soft.

 

[gazthomas]

This is a worst not best discussion!

As others have said 31s, couldn't pull skin off a rice pudding

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sounds about right, that's very much his style. Chris Green is bit of a hero of mine. Apparently he fought tooth and nail to keep Pacers out of Scotland!

Shame he didn't fight a little harder and a little bit further South of the border!

 

[FS-2-11]

I'm a Londoner now living in Scotland, and I'm enjoying riding the 365s daily on the E&G. They're very good trains.

Absolutely agree - I'd used 365s occasionally in WAGN days, and the other week I had one on the E&G and was reminded of just how good they still are from the passenger's POV. They might lack mod cons like sockets and wi-fi and full tables, but for moving lots of people comfortably around the central belt at 100mph, look no further.

If I were in Alex Hynes' position I'd take every 365 that's otherwise going into store.

 

[43096]

I disagree. I found them perfectly comfortable. And I like soft.

You’re the exception that proves the rule, then!

 

[Wolfie]

Futuristic doesn't equate to comfort though. The seats still feel hard, even though they are less unusual in that now.

True. But they were a major improvement on the antedeluvian (they felt almost Victorian) former Southern stock. Going from North to South London commuter trains prior to the Networkers felt like going back 50 years in time.. .

 

[Taunton]

The worst large scale issue was any modern traction designed by North British, diesel or electric, large or small. How the once largest builder in the UK could have fallen to this is extraordinary. The running gear was generally good, the (German-licenced MAN) engines ran OK, but rest of the power train, and particularly all the accessories seemed designed by engineers who had never progressed beyond their Meccano sets.

The one exception was the Warships D833-865, which were extremely closely supervised by Swindon to be as similar to their own build as possible, and to most observers they could not tell the difference between the two batches. Unfortunately the same close attention was not paid by the AC electric team to the Class 84 build. It was exacerbated by much more of the unit being produced in-house at NB themselves in Glasgow, in contrast to the likes of BRCW who mainly assembled standard proprietary parts from suppliers. When NB went bankrupt all the support and spares fell away.

 

[yorksrob]

You’re the exception that proves the rule, then!

I wonder whether there were as many complaints about the quality of seats for the EPB and SUB classes when they were introduced as there have been for the 700's as an example.

Basically, they consist of a sprung base cushion, which stops your backside aching after half an hour, and a curved sprung seat back, which supports the upper back, making for a perfectly acceptable journey.

 

[yorksrob]

True. But they were a major improvement on the antedeluvian (they felt almost Victorian) former Southern stock. Going from North to South London commuter trains prior to the Networkers felt like going back 50 years in time.. .

I've never visited Antedeluvia, so I couldn't comment on their trains, however I remember thinking how basic and austere modern designs such as the 455 seemed in comparison to a well padded EPB.

 

[Taunton]

I found a brand new Class 800 last week on Cardiff to Paddington to be more utilitarian , squashed and uncomfortable than the 1935 GWR open Excursion Stock vehicle (designed for minimum fare travel) at Didcot museum, whose upholstery seems original and which has stood out in the open weather for over 80 years.

 

[GrimShady]

Sounds about right, that's very much his style. Chris Green is bit of a hero of mine. Apparently he fought tooth and nail to keep Pacers out of Scotland!

Agreed, Mr Green was one of BRs best assets.

 

[GrimShady]

The worst large scale issue was any modern traction designed by North British, diesel or electric, large or small. How the once largest builder in the UK could have fallen to this is extraordinary. The running gear was generally good, the (German-licenced MAN) engines ran OK, but rest of the power train, and particularly all the accessories seemed designed by engineers who had never progressed beyond their Meccano sets.

The one exception was the Warships D833-865, which were extremely closely supervised by Swindon to be as similar to their own build as possible, and to most observers they could not tell the difference between the two batches. Unfortunately the same close attention was not paid by the AC electric team to the Class 84 build. It was exacerbated by much more of the unit being produced in-house at NB themselves in Glasgow, in contrast to the likes of BRCW who mainly assembled standard proprietary parts from suppliers. When NB went bankrupt all the support and spares fell away.

My understanding was the MAN engines, which were built under licence, all had issues due to conversion from metric to imperial. Terrible designs by NB all round although I do like the look of their products such as the Class 41 even if they weren't good locos.

 

[Bedpan]

I've never visited Antedeluvia, so I couldn't comment on their trains, however I remember thinking how basic and austere modern designs such as the 455 seemed in comparison to a well padded EPB.

I've never even heard of it let alone been there. .

 

[yorksrob]

I've never even heard of it let alone been there. .

I'm told the apres-ski is very good