I'm afraid its a little late in the day to be arguing business cases for new Northern stock. The 195 & 331 classes will do far more for passenger numbers than cascaded stock, no matter how nice.
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Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.
- Thread starter darloscott
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I'm afraid its a little late in the day to be arguing business cases for new Northern stock. The 195 & 331 classes will do far more for passenger numbers than cascaded stock, no matter how nice.
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Liverpool 507
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All of Northerns electric units as well as the class 158's and 170's are fitted with CET tanks. However in terms of the rest of the fleet, only 150274/275/276 out of the 150's are fitted with CET tanks, as are all of the refurbished 155's and 156's. Still plenty of diesels requiring them though before the deadline.
northernchris
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That's true, it's more of a stock imbalance
978wta
Member
When it comes to interiors, white may look clean but quickly becomes grubby.
Regarding the cloth, I'm not sure why wipe clean mock leather isn't used instead. It's easy to spray with detergent and wipe clean plus it doesn't harbor dust.
The floor surfaces need to be able to withstand the daily wear and look good even when a bit grimy.
In many cases, the original interiors are far harder wearing than any refurb. An example would be the 142 bus seats. They're practically indestructible.
A deep clean would be better than a cheap lick of paint.
Materials need to be durable. Seats shouldn't have anything that can break easily attached to them.
Get rid of anything that isn't functional. Dividers, internal doors, luggage racks should all be junked. Better to have side benches that fold up to allow luggage bikes or wheelchairs to occupy the space when necessary. Bit like in the original 142s.
Function over aesthetics every time in this situation. Make it useful and unbreakable first, and look and feel nice last.
Regarding the cloth, I'm not sure why wipe clean mock leather isn't used instead. It's easy to spray with detergent and wipe clean plus it doesn't harbor dust.
The floor surfaces need to be able to withstand the daily wear and look good even when a bit grimy.
In many cases, the original interiors are far harder wearing than any refurb. An example would be the 142 bus seats. They're practically indestructible.
A deep clean would be better than a cheap lick of paint.
Materials need to be durable. Seats shouldn't have anything that can break easily attached to them.
Get rid of anything that isn't functional. Dividers, internal doors, luggage racks should all be junked. Better to have side benches that fold up to allow luggage bikes or wheelchairs to occupy the space when necessary. Bit like in the original 142s.
Function over aesthetics every time in this situation. Make it useful and unbreakable first, and look and feel nice last.
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xotGD
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Are there no spare 321/322 units sat around spare in other parts of the country that could be sent to Neville Hill?
I 'enjoyed' a 3-car 144 on the 1756 Leeds - Skipton a few days ago, and it's just not good enough to throw that out on a peak Airedale service.
I 'enjoyed' a 3-car 144 on the 1756 Leeds - Skipton a few days ago, and it's just not good enough to throw that out on a peak Airedale service.
northernchris
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Absolutely. I was on an unrefurbed ex FNW 150 the other day and though it still looked reasonably smart, could have just done with the grabrails and door control buttons smartening up. The old Northern Rail seat covers seem far more durable than the new covers
Although not ideal it's better than cancelling the service and crushing everyone on to the 1826. Is the Airedale line cleared for 170s, as it may make sense to temporarily change over an EMU diagram to a diesel given there is a surplus of 170s at the moment.
Is there really a surplus of 170's? The Harrogate line was running nicely in early September, and I'd have agreed with you back then ... but the last couple of weeks have been full of cancellations, short-forms and some 170 replacements that are also short-formed.
43096
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Not yet!
northernchris
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Well, in theory there should be! AFAIK there's 4 scheduled 170 diagrams and 10 170s. Even taking in to account those away from refurb it should leave enough to provide the service. Northern have previously admitted they have moved carriages from Yorkshire to the North West, which puts even more pressure on the remaining fleet. Then factor in the refurb program, along with the wheel flats associated with leaf fall season and I can't see things improving for a while unfortunately
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Mock leather doesn't last as long as real leather, then real leather (which is more expensive) attracts criticism from vegans.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
They can use their vegan friendly Nissan Leaf
. On a serious note, just use moquette.They can use their vegan friendly Nissan Leaf
Perhaps seats could be upholstered with vegan hide, thereby satisfying everyone...
The mock leather isn't important. Substitute it with anything suitable that's hard-wearing and preferably wipe clean!
superkev
Established Member
I suppose in a previous BR world more surplus 365's would go to Scotrail who are struggling and Scotrails 321 could fill in at Northern.
K
We all know the difference between theory and practice! But otherwise I agree - there should be enough.
Incidentally, 170s now appear to be on 5 diagrams. I say 'appear to be 5' because I only get to see turbostars on 4 diagrams in the morning, and on 4 diagrams in the evening ... but a slightly different 4.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. There's absolutely no benefit to be gained from getting rid of overhead luggage racks.
superkev
Established Member
Could it be something to do with the 170's reported huge fuel and/or oil consumption when stuck in 1st gear on the 65mph Harrogate loop. May not be able to do a full shift without returning to depot.
K
More rolling stock shambles from Wakefield Westgate this morning - 3 car Pacer from Doncaster (already full) arrived - they literally couldn’t shut the doors before it set off. Then a 2 car Pacer arrived - also full, before a full signal faliure stopped any more trains arriving or leaving.
I very much doubt the new 4 car units will make much difference to overcrowding. The move to 6 car trains, and the infrastructure to support them is what’s really needed if the mirage of the ‘Northern Powerhouse’ is to become anything more than a cynical attempt by the government to garner votes from the north of England.
I once got an 8 car train from Brighton to London at 5:50pm on a weekday. It was almost empty...
I very much doubt the new 4 car units will make much difference to overcrowding. The move to 6 car trains, and the infrastructure to support them is what’s really needed if the mirage of the ‘Northern Powerhouse’ is to become anything more than a cynical attempt by the government to garner votes from the north of England.
I once got an 8 car train from Brighton to London at 5:50pm on a weekday. It was almost empty...
northwichcat
Veteran Member
The new trains will have 23.8m carriages, the Pacers have 15.5m carriages so a new 4 car train will be around 33% longer than a 4 car Pacer formation. It's not the number of carriages which count but the actual length of the formation.
I understand this - the current 4 car 322 is a similar length, no? Barely standing room currently. People won’t get up 30mins earlier to get a different class of train to fit a capacity model. How long before a 4 car is full? Less than 18 months. 333s from Skipton are also rammed full in rush hour at Leeds when they come in.
They have been ordered to fill today’s capacity - not tomorrow’s.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
4 car Pacer - 62m in length
4 car 150/319/321/322 - 80m in length
4 car 153/155/156/158 - 92m in length
4 car 170/195/331/333 - 95m in length
The plan is for pairs of 3 car 331s to replace 4 car 333s on Skipton services and for 333s to replace the 321s and 322s which will mean 50% more capacity for peak time Skipton services* and 19% more capacity on Doncaster to Leeds services and in the case of the latter 19% more capacity compared to a 4 car 321/322 not a Pacer filling in for one.
* It would be surprising if they left the 3 car 331s doubled up all day every day on the Skipton services.
When I went through the franchise agreement, I came up with some figures as to how the various numbers changed...
The 2020 target, compared to the franchise start, had 5% more units available, 18% more carriages, 24% more seats, 31% more capacity (incl standing).
The 2022 target, compared to the franchise start, had 7% more units, 20% more carriages, 26% more seats, and 34% more capacity (incl standing).
The difference between the increase in unit count and the increase in capacity comes down to having more carriages per unit, and units constructed with longer carriages.
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The recent cancellations and short-forms seem to have always involved the unit that has to run ECS from Neville Hill out to Harrogate in the morning. That ought to be the one best positioned for fuel!
Aren't all commuter trains into Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool etc. rammed at peak hours though?
It's unrealistic to expect that everyone will get a seat at peak hours. (7-9am and 4:30-6:30pm)
If you go on these trains outside peak hours there are more seats than people.
Where the train companies should experiment is altering the peak/off-peak times to spread capacity more evenly.
Manchester Metrolink are thinking of introducing an "early bird off-peak" ticket from 5:30-7am. And so they should because trams are dead at this time. National Rail/DfT should follow suit - it's the quickest way to increasing capacity on trains.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
TPE have been doing an early bird season ticket on the Huddersfield corridor for years.
From what I've seen, it would be better for passengers if the "refurbishments" stopped completely. Does anyone do seating as badly as northern?? Perhaps a firm from the medieval ages, I can't think of anyone else.
What they've done to the previously comfortable 319s is a shocker. Doesn't help that the new value seat coverings seriously show up just how poor the standard of cleanliness is.
Is the refurb more about managing peoples overall expectations downwards I wonder!
What they've done to the previously comfortable 319s is a shocker. Doesn't help that the new value seat coverings seriously show up just how poor the standard of cleanliness is.
Is the refurb more about managing peoples overall expectations downwards I wonder!
Feed it back to Northern. I wouldn't hold much hope but you never know!
They use the same material as southern?
On the Bury and Altrincham lines, (which are the two busiest lines on the network) the services from start up are certainly not dead in any stretch of the imagination, I have used the first service in the morning numerous times and by Bowker Vale for example on the Bury line the service is full and standing. Granted it is not as crowded as it is at for example 8am, but to call it dead is a little naive.
Sam
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Not sure about Bury but there's a lot of people from Cheshire who need to get to Manchester early who drive to a Metrolink stop due to Metrolink starting much earlier than Northern.
I've only got experience of using pre-7am Metrolink services on days when trains haven't been running/been severely reduced due to rail strikes so can't really comment on normal loadings.