Northern Unit Refurbishments and depot allocations.

[Bantamzen]

Talking of zero leg room & refurbishments, is there any news on how 333 001 is shaping up at Holbeck, or am I being hopelessly optimistic?

 

[Jamesrob637]

The Northern 158 I'm currently on is clean but dated. A throwback to the mid-2000s. Not the most welcoming train (It's going to the Airport so doubtless a few tourists and overseas businesspeople will get on for its return) but not bad either. Least the temperature is reasonable (very mild day today in Manchester).

 

[43096]

Is there any chance that Northern might not get all the 170s as planned from Scotrail, if Scotrail cannot sort out their rolling stock shortages?

Only if Northern agree to it. They have a signed contract to lease them, so ScotRail will have to hand them over on the agreed date unless all three parties (Northern, ScotRail and Porterbrook) agree to it.

 

[darylyates17]

How many 319s have the new seat covers?

 

[dave87016]

158845 is back in service after being out of service for many months and is now sporting the same northern livery as the 3 car 158’s

 

[Neptune]

Saw 333001 while passing Holbeck today and it has been repainted into the new Northern livery. Just the interior to do now!

 

[507021]

Updated list. I am also working on a blog which has a more detailed version of the list below, once it's ready I'll publish the link.

If there's anything I've missed or any mistakes, please let me know.

Units in red are in the Northern Rail livery or their former operator's livery.
Units in blue are in the Northern or Northern base livery.
Units in bold are refurbished.
Units with a ^ are out of service for repaint/refurbishment/PRM mods.
Units with a * have received PRM modifications.
Units with a $ are currently stored/out of service.
Units in italics have not arrived yet.

Class 150s
150101*, 150102*, 150103, 150104, 150105, 150106, 150107, 150108, 150109, 150110, 150111, 150112*, 150113, 150114, 150115, 150116*, 150117, 150118, 150119, 150120, 150121, 150122, 150123^, 150124*, 150125, 150126*, 150127, 150128, 150129, 150130, 150131, 150132*, 150133, 150134*, 150135, 150136*, 150137*, 150138*, 150139, 150140*, 150141*, 150142*, 150143, 150144*, 150145, 150146*, 150147, 150148, 150149*, 150150.

150201, 150203*, 150204*, 150205*, 150206*, 150209, 150210, 150211*, 150214^, 150215, 150218, 150220*, 150222*, 150223*, 150224, 150225, 150226, 150228, 150268, 150269, 150270*, 150271, 150272^, 150273, 150274*, 150275*, 150276*, 150277.

Class 155s
155341*, 155342^, 155343, 155344, 155345*, 155346*, 155347*.

Class 156s
156420*, 156421, 156423^, 156424, 156425, 156426, 156427, 156428, 156429, 156438*, 156440, 156441, 156443*, 156444*, 156447, 156448*, 156449, 156451*, 156452*, 156454*, 156455, 156459, 156460, 156461, 156463*, 156464, 156465, 156466*, 156468*, 156469*, 156471*, 156472*, 156475*, 156479*, 156480*, 156481*, 156482*, 156483*, 156484*, 156485, 156486*, 156487*, 156488*, 156489*, 156490*, 156491*, 156496.

Class 158s
158752*, 158753*, 158754*, 158755*, 158756*, 158757*, 158758*, 158759*.

158782*, 158784, 158786*, 158787, 158789*, 158790, 158791*, 158792, 158793, 158794^, 158795*, 158796*, 158797*, 158815, 158816, 158817, 158842, 158843, 158844*, 158845*, 158848*, 158849*^, 158850*, 158851, 158853, 158855*, 158859*, 158860*, 158861, 158867*, 158868*, 158869*, 158870*, 158871*, 158872.

158901, 158902, 158903, 158904, 158905, 158906, 158907, 158908, 158909, 158910.

Note: 158906 is fitted with WiFi, charging points and a PIS in one carriage.

Class 170s (All are PRM compliant)
170453*, 170454*, 170455*, 170456*, 170457*, 170458*, 170459*, 170460*, 170461*, 170472*$, 170473*, 170474*^, 170475*^, 170476*, 170477*, 170478*.

Class 319s (All are PRM compliant)
319361*, 319362*, 319363*, 319364*, 319365*, 319366*, 319367*, 319368*, 319369*, 319370*, 319371*, 319372*, 319373*$, 319374*, 319375*, 319376*, 319377*, 319378*, 319379*, 319380*, 319381*, 319382*, 319383*, 319384*, 319385*, 319386*.

319424*, 319426*^, 319431*^, 319442*, 319446*, 319448*, 319450*, 319456*^, 319458*.

Class 333s (All are PRM compliant)
333001*^, 333002*, 333003*, 333004*, 333005*, 333006*, 333007*, 333008*, 333009*, 333010*, 333011*, 333012*, 333013*, 333014*, 333015*, 333016*.

Class 769s (Undergoing conversion)
769424*, 769426*, 769431*^, 769434*^, 769442*, 769446*, 769448*, 769450*, 769456*^, 769458*, 7694??.

 

[superkev]

Thanks for updated list most interesting. I count around 10 units away.
Strange with Northern supposed to be short of units that the 2 recently refreshed 170's or shown as stored.
K

 

[BurtonM]

I'm on a Northern 150 refurb.
The seats are all dirty and stained, a wall panel is loose and rattling around, the white floor is beige with dirt from footfall, the seat backs don't fit the cushions, there are exposed self tappers everywhere, staining where the windows are open, bits of wall panel are loose, missing and/or broken and still just sprayed over with cheap white paint, screw heads painted over suggesting it was all done in situ .
In a couple of years these units are going to be worse off than if Northern just left them be .

 

[Flyingsprinter]

I'm on a Northern 150 refurb.
The seats are all dirty and stained, a wall panel is loose and rattling around, the white floor is beige with dirt from footfall, the seat backs don't fit the cushions, there are exposed self tappers everywhere, staining where the windows are open, bits of wall panel are loose, missing and/or broken and still just sprayed over with cheap white paint, screw heads painted over suggesting it was all done in situ .
In a couple of years these units are going to be worse off than if Northern just left them be .

If they did a proper job that would eat into their profits. That’s all that matters.

 

[Eric]

I'm on a Northern 150 refurb.
The seats are all dirty and stained, a wall panel is loose and rattling around, the white floor is beige with dirt from footfall, the seat backs don't fit the cushions, there are exposed self tappers everywhere, staining where the windows are open, bits of wall panel are loose, missing and/or broken and still just sprayed over with cheap white paint, screw heads painted over suggesting it was all done in situ .
In a couple of years these units are going to be worse off than if Northern just left them be .

I'd rather get a pacer than a rust bucket 150.

Worst train design ever.

 

[superkev]

Thanks for updated list most interesting. I count around 10 units away.
Strange with Northern supposed to be short of units that the 2 recently refreshed 170's or shown as stored.
K

I hear 170 473 is out in service.
K

 

[JDEunos]

I just travelled from Wakefield to Leeds on a Class 170 (Scotsrail livery) that was running on the Doncaster/Leeds route. It was half an hour late, packed due to it being only 3 carriages, but it was NEW. I could not Adam and Eve it when it appeared.

I think it must have replaced the 322 unit that has had door problems all week. Anything other than 4 carriages at that time in a morning is unworkable.

 

[mjn]

Which are the 2 x 170s currently in the shed at Crewe (474 & 475?)

 

[js1000]

I'm on a Northern 150 refurb.
The seats are all dirty and stained, a wall panel is loose and rattling around, the white floor is beige with dirt from footfall, the seat backs don't fit the cushions, there are exposed self tappers everywhere, staining where the windows are open, bits of wall panel are loose, missing and/or broken and still just sprayed over with cheap white paint, screw heads painted over suggesting it was all done in situ .
In a couple of years these units are going to be worse off than if Northern just left them be .

The "refurbishments" on the 150s and 156s are horrendous. The DfT need to step in and tell Arriva to modernise them to "as new" trains as agreed in the franchise agreement.

My only hope is that the 769s and converted 321s are a success and these can be a cheap fix for replacing the 150s and 156s in the coming years. I don't see Northern leasing new trains as they are too expensive so they are going to have to think outside the box. The Renatus interior on the 321 shows what can be done with the right attitude.

 

[59CosG95]

The "refurbishments" on the 150s and 156s are horrendous. The DfT need to step in and tell Arriva to modernise them to "as new" trains as agreed in the franchise agreement.

My only hope is that the 769s and converted 321s are a success and these can be a cheap fix for replacing the 150s and 156s in the coming years. I don't see Northern leasing new trains as they are too expensive so they are going to have to think outside the box. The Renatus interior on the 321 shows what can be done with the right attitude.

That's the thing. The DafT thinks that the refurbs are "as new"; indeed, a quick glance at the flat cloth used on the GWR IETs seems to lay their interior intentions threadbare.
(Thank you, I'm here all week)
One can only hope that Arriva tell the DfT up front that flat cloth does not work, and that moquette is better in the long run.

 

[Flyingsprinter]

I just travelled from Wakefield to Leeds on a Class 170 (Scotsrail livery) that was running on the Doncaster/Leeds route. It was half an hour late, packed due to it being only 3 carriages, but it was NEW. I could not Adam and Eve it when it appeared.

I think it must have replaced the 322 unit that has had door problems all week. Anything other than 4 carriages at that time in a morning is unworkable.

Why on earth are northern running a diesel train under the wires between Leeds and Doncaster? With the lack of diesel units and the surplus of electric units doing something like that is utterly pointless.
Especially when this afternoon I was on a Northern 142 that was so packed it had to leave people behind on the platform.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why on earth are northern running a diesel train under the wires between Leeds and Doncaster? With the lack of diesel units and the surplus of electric units doing something like that is utterly pointless.
Especially when this afternoon I was on a Northern 142 that was so packed it had to leave people behind on the platform.

If it was all they had to step in for a defective electric unit, then it's better than a bus (or more likely, nothing at all). Sounds like it might've been one of the recent transfers which they probably weren't expecting to need in traffic at least until they've put their stickers on it.

 

[woodhouse122]

150123 was at wabtec doncaster this afternoon in Unbranded northern (not too sure about the interior as a 321 was blocking my view )

 

[northernchris]

Why on earth are northern running a diesel train under the wires between Leeds and Doncaster? With the lack of diesel units and the surplus of electric units doing something like that is utterly pointless.
Especially when this afternoon I was on a Northern 142 that was so packed it had to leave people behind on the platform.

Northern need 21 of the 24 electrics in service at peak times. With 333001 out for refurb, and a 322 away at Ilford that leaves no slack for routine maintenance or faults. There's been a 3 car 144 out on Airedale line services most of this week, have seen one on the 1736 Leeds-Bradford and 1756 Leeds-Skipton services which is an improvement on what happened a few weeks ago when cancellations were standard if an EMU was unavailable. The downside to this is it means DMU services end up being shortformed so a unit is released to cover

 

[Killingworth]

Looking at the list of units still to be refurbished it has fallen a considerable way behind the rate necessary to achieve the public announcements at the start of the franchise. See; https://news.arriva.co.uk/news/northern-franchise-awarded-to-arriva Removing Pacers and refurbishing all trains within 3 years was how they put it. Or did they? Many read that to mean all the units would be fully refurbished within 3 years. That's what we wanted to believe, and maybe that's what the PR people wanted us to think.

Looking at it now the impression they created in 2015 raised an unrealistic expectation. At the current rate of progress some may not be fully refurbished before the franchise ends. "All trains will have improved connectivity with free WiFi by 2019." What exactly did that mean? The suggestion of free Wi-Fi on all trains by the end of 2019 seems to have been wildly optimistic. It's supposed to be on all stations. It was/is on ours but so time consuming to get logged in I doubt any use it.

The 158 I travelled on this week was battered on the outside, and the interior was grubby with mismatched cushions and torn headrests + litter! It looked in a sorry state. This on a supposed express from Sheffield to Leeds. Like others on this forum I noted a 150 recently that looked very smart externally, but once inside the newly renewed seat covers were unpleasantly stained already.

 

[Bantamzen]

Looking at the list of units still to be refurbished it has fallen a considerable way behind the rate necessary to achieve the public announcements at the start of the franchise. See; https://news.arriva.co.uk/news/northern-franchise-awarded-to-arriva Removing Pacers and refurbishing all trains within 3 years was how they put it. Or did they? Many read that to mean all the units would be fully refurbished within 3 years. That's what we wanted to believe, and maybe that's what the PR people wanted us to think.

Looking at it now the impression they created in 2015 raised an unrealistic expectation. At the current rate of progress some may not be fully refurbished before the franchise ends. "All trains will have improved connectivity with free WiFi by 2019." What exactly did that mean? The suggestion of free Wi-Fi on all trains by the end of 2019 seems to have been wildly optimistic. It's supposed to be on all stations. It was/is on ours but so time consuming to get logged in I doubt any use it.

The 158 I travelled on this week was battered on the outside, and the interior was grubby with mismatched cushions and torn headrests + litter! It looked in a sorry state. This on a supposed express from Sheffield to Leeds. Like others on this forum I noted a 150 recently that looked very smart externally, but once inside the newly renewed seat covers were unpleasantly stained already.

I imagine having a fleet generally built in the 1980s will come with some not insubstantial challenges when it comes to refurbishment. It's widely known that the 155 bodywork were in poor shape pre-refurb, so its not entirely unreasonable to assume that many other units had unforseen issues, meaning that refurbishment took longer than planned. I imagine once the 195 and 331 fleets start to enter revenue service the pace will pick up as more units can be released.

In terms of WiFi, we'll to put it bluntly I'd rather have Northern concentrate on upgrading it's fleet and increasing it's capacity before worrying about offering WiFi. Priorities and all that.

 

[superkev]

I imagine having a fleet generally built in the 1980s will come with some not insubstantial challenges when it comes to refurbishment. It's widely known that the 155 bodywork were in poor shape pre-refurb, so its not entirely unreasonable to assume that many other units had unforseen issues, meaning that refurbishment took longer than planned. I imagine once the 195 and 331 fleets start to enter revenue service the pace will pick up as more units can be released.

In terms of WiFi, we'll to put it bluntly I'd rather have Northern concentrate on upgrading it's fleet and increasing it's capacity before worrying about offering WiFi. Priorities and all that.

I think refurbishment is the wrong word as this implys mechanical work too.
I think the slow pace of redecorating is more to do with lack of capacity at the various works which are stretched with fitting bathrooms etc. Will they be all done when the franchise ends I wonder.
As for the quality of the work personally to get me tempted out of my car being able to sit without my knees wedged to the over high seat back in front or interlaced with the person opposite would be my number one.

 

[greyman42]

I hear 170 473 is out in service.
K

There was a Scotrail 170 stood outside Neville Hill all day yesterday.

 

[superkev]

There was a Scotrail 170 stood outside Neville Hill all day yesterday.

With all the problems Scotrail are having perhaps they will be wanting them back . With them not fitting down the Calder Valley tunnels Northern seem a bit at loss where to use them. Looks like just Leeds Harrogate York plus Doncster when the electrics dail.at the moment.

 

[modernrail]

A series of thoughts leading to a conclusion that I would be interested in your opinion on:

-Northern seem to be making a complete hash of the refurbishments. Being charitable they have to refurbish one of the oldest and most mixed fleets in the country. Newly arrived cast-offs from various places that have been maintained by different depots are adding to the complication.
- In contrast, we constantly hear about big Southern franchises moving to standard fleets, partly because it makes maintenance easier and cheaper - which is obvious. So the franchise that needs to cover the biggest and most financially challenging operating area suffers an immediate handicap in the form of a non-standard, old and therefore expensive to maintain fleet.
- Many of the 15-'s are not far off life-expired and they are poor show in terms of customer experience in many cases. It feels like the refurbishments are flogging a near dead horse.
- The rolling stock outlook is now materially different to how it was when the Northern franchise was awarded.
-The Flex concept seems to have wheels. It can also be applied to the newer of the soon to be redundant EMU's. I travelled on a Renatus unit the other day for the first time and I was really impressed. A 1.5 hour journey was fine other than 3 plus 2 seating but they are still better 3 plus 2 than any Northern configuration of the same.
- EMU's have a longer life expectancy than DMU's, so we can easily get another 10 years out of converted newer EMU's. I would have thought 15 years is reasonable.

I wonder if deals should be done to change the current franchise arrangements as follows:

- Northern halt refurbishments and switch to make do and mend with the 150 fleet but try and do a really good job of it, for instance stepping up cleaning, heating maintenance etc massively.
- On the west side - Stick with the current 319/flex blend for current orders but stop there. The 319 is definitely not the best former EMU out there for conversion in terms of customer experience. I would like to see the windows sealed and comfort cooling installed as per the Renatus - but it needs to be cost effective (and probably would be if GWR, London Midland etc ask for the same for their 319 and Flex fleets.
- Put an order in for Renatus conversion to DEMU to replace all Northern 15x units. They can be converted and come to northern as the new trains enter service on Greater Anglia. They should also have more capacity than 2 150x slung together as they don't use up cab space. They would also be better operationally with good circulation space in the vestibules and the guard can get through the whole unit.

To do this I suppose DaFT would need to provide a guarantee to the ROSCO's that the refurbished units will be specified for at least part of the next Northern franchise. That is nothing that has not been done before as far as I understand it.

There would also need to be a re-calculation on the franchise costs. However, if DaFT know they are getting rid of a problem that would otherwise be there at the end of the franchise, replacement of the 15xs, that might be sufficiently attractive to put in a bit extra now?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Northern need 21 of the 24 electrics in service at peak times. With 333001 out for refurb, and a 322 away at Ilford that leaves no slack for routine maintenance or faults. There's been a 3 car 144 out on Airedale line services most of this week, have seen one on the 1736 Leeds-Bradford and 1756 Leeds-Skipton services which is an improvement on what happened a few weeks ago when cancellations were standard if an EMU was unavailable. The downside to this is it means DMU services end up being shortformed so a unit is released to cover

There are plenty of Northern class 319 EMUs sitting idle at Allerton.
I know, "x doesn't sign" rules apply.
But there isn't really a Northern EMU shortage.

 

[Killingworth]

A series of thoughts leading to a conclusion that I would be interested in your opinion on:.........................

To do this I suppose DaFT would need to provide a guarantee to the ROSCO's that the refurbished units will be specified for at least part of the next Northern franchise. That is nothing that has not been done before as far as I understand it.

There would also need to be a re-calculation on the franchise costs. However, if DaFT know they are getting rid of a problem that would otherwise be there at the end of the franchise, replacement of the 15xs, that might be sufficiently attractive to put in a bit extra now?

One might be forgiven for wondering if Northern are stalling on spending too much money on 15xs in the hope they may be able to do something like this. It seems incredible that far newer electric units are being consigned to storage, and possibly scrap, when they are much more modern and in better condition - barring the method of propulsion. I know, that's no small issue, but if 319s can go bi-mode surely others can too.

 

[978wta]

Has any of Northen’s fleet been fitted with CET tanks yet?

 

[js1000]

In terms of WiFi, we'll to put it bluntly I'd rather have Northern concentrate on upgrading it's fleet and increasing it's capacity before worrying about offering WiFi. Priorities and all that.

I'd rather they do some more than just re-spraying the external livery white and doing nothing to the interior. That is not refurbishment.

The business case does not stack up for Northern to put a new diesel order in to replace the 150s and 156s which are life expired or will be in the next few years.

The 769 Flex and 321 bi-mode Renatus project offer a potential imaginative solution that replaces life-expired diesel stock and increases capacity at a reduced price.

If all Northern trains interior were modern and clean like the 321 Renatus interior Arriva would see passenger numbers skyrocket across the North. They could get another 10-15 years out of the bi-mode 769s & 321s by which time passenger numbers would have increased sufficiently to enable a large rolling stock order come 2030.

Arriva need to think outside the box but should realise there is a potential solution that could result in a transformative change for the railways across the North if done right.