Arriva Rail North DOO

[Tomnick]

Surely it's the job of the Department for Transport and TOCs with industry safety boards to examine the safety case and implications behind DOO. The RMT safety mantra is not fooling many people, it's a dispute fuelled out of mess room talk and guards self importance. The railway is only getting busier we will need more staff not less, they have committed to staffing trains through franchise agreements. As we have seen Guards are just as easy to get rid of as any other grade of staff.

The DfT and the TOCs, who fund the RSSB, have the common objective of trying to make the job as cheap to run as possible. Their mantra to the contrary certainly doesn't fool me. If there is a genuine commitment to staffing trains, then what really is the point of it all?

 

[Confused52]

The DfT and the TOCs, who fund the RSSB, have the common objective of trying to make the job as cheap to run as possible. Their mantra to the contrary certainly doesn't fool me. If there is a genuine commitment to staffing trains, then what really is the point of it all?

The funding quip is a cheap shot, they are required to fund it are they not? There are many precedents in other industries of similar funding but it does not mean their work is biased because a single court case would blow the whole rule book edifice, and the protection it affords, apart if that were proven. That is not in the Government or the TOCs interests.

 

[Confused52]

I genuinely don’t know. Does the bus or the train or whatever report its position back to the tracking system using a data connection over the mobile phone systems, does it use the GPS satellites, or does it do something else altogether? It’s one thing if the train knows where it is, it’s quite another to share that knowledge with the rest of the world.

I would have thought that sending position data very regularly would exhaust the capacity of GSM-R which is only low speed data. The approximate position of the terminal is derived from the GSM-R base station to which you are connected and the accurate location can be determined when you make a GSM emergency call. I presume that is how it manages to call a stop to adjacent and closed lines. I expect the other trains needs to know where they are to decide whether they are supposed to stop based on the emergency call service data, as well as to report location when making a call. When a newer radio system with greater capacity is adopted tracking may be possible. Normal GPS gives answers to distances that are less than the length of the train. GPS satellites transmit only.

I think even the moving block systems use radio towards the train to send movement authority but don't need location sent back for normal running since that is the only fail safe mode of operation. I believe that Cab Control decides when to slow down if it is about to run out of authority based on data from balise data and location /odometer data generated in the train applied to track data.

 

[Tomnick]

The funding quip is a cheap shot, they are required to fund it are they not? There are many precedents in other industries of similar funding but it does not mean their work is biased because a single court case would blow the whole rule book edifice, and the protection it affords, apart if that were proven. That is not in the Government or the TOCs interests.

It just seems as though their work on DOO made a sudden shift towards justifying the desired outcome, with the suppression of the 'implementation' report that suggested that the risk might be higher and its replacement with bland statements suggesting that the overall risk would somehow remain unchanged (how?!). I must admit that I find the recent Rule Book changes, putting much more content into the hands of individual TOCs and their supplements to the Rule Book, both disappointing and confusing - maybe it's not a bad principle, but it seems to represent a backward step in reality.

I would have thought that sending position data very regularly would exhaust the capacity of GSM-R which is only low speed data. The approximate position of the terminal is derived from the GSM-R base station to which you are connected and the accurate location can be determined when you make a GSM emergency call. I presume that is how it manages to call a stop to adjacent and closed lines. I expect the other trains needs to know where they are to decide whether they are supposed to stop based on the emergency call service data, as well as to report location when making a call. When a newer radio system with greater capacity is adopted tracking may be possible. Normal GPS gives answers to distances that are less than the length of the train. GPS satellites transmit only.

GSM-R determines the position of the train with reference to the train describer if it's provided (which allows, as I understand it, the cells 'forwarding' the REC to be - automatically - selected more appropriately. In the absence of train describer information, the system only knows which base station received the REC and, as far as I know, doesn't know whereabouts in that cell the train actually is - it certainly doesn't make any decisions on which cells to extend the REC to on that basis. I suppose it's technically possible if a call is picked up by more than two (?) base stations though.

Can we conclude, then, that routine tracking of a train's position is reliant on a data connection that might have significant gaps in coverage?

I think even the moving block systems use radio towards the train to send movement authority but don't need location sent back for normal running since that is the only fail safe mode of operation. I believe that Cab Control decides when to slow down if it is about to run out of authority based on data from balise data and location /odometer data generated in the train applied to track data.

I think you're correct, but I don't know for sure. It certainly makes sense though - the system knows where the train is by the conventional train detection systems, and the train knows where it is and where its movement authority extends to by a combination of balises and its own odometry.

 

[Confused52]

GSM-R determines the position of the train with reference to the train describer if it's provided (which allows, as I understand it, the cells 'forwarding' the REC to be - automatically - selected more appropriately. In the absence of train describer information, the system only knows which base station received the REC and, as far as I know, doesn't know whereabouts in that cell the train actually is - it certainly doesn't make any decisions on which cells to extend the REC to on that basis. I suppose it's technically possible if a call is picked up by more than two (?) base stations though.

Can we conclude, then, that routine tracking of a train's position is reliant on a data connection that might have significant gaps in coverage?

My understanding is that the initial Emergency Call includes the terminal identity which is located by reference to the Train describer data, the radio having registered a headcode for that purpose to allow signallers to contact the train. The REC process then sets up a group call and just looking that up shows that the train describer data is likely used to establish the members of the group which need to be alerted with the terminal based message. The base station location data is used only when the train describer data is not available. Under those circumstances call can go to the wrong panel and basically the rule book says drivers are on their own!

The upshot of that investigation rather than relying on my clearly imperfect memory is that the routine
tracking of a train's position is not reliant on GSM-R, however many gaps there are in coverage!

 

[Tomnick]

My understanding is that the initial Emergency Call includes the terminal identity which is located by reference to the Train describer data, the radio having registered a headcode for that purpose to allow signallers to contact the train. The REC process then sets up a group call and just looking that up shows that the train describer data is likely used to establish the members of the group which need to be alerted with the terminal based message. The base station location data is used only when the train describer data is not available. Under those circumstances call can go to the wrong panel and basically the rule book says drivers are on their own!

The upshot of that investigation rather than relying on my clearly imperfect memory is that the routine
tracking of a train's position is not reliant on GSM-R, however many gaps there are in coverage!

Yes, pretty much all as I understand it. Sorry, I see what you mean now - the train's position isn't tracked using GSM-R, but I just wanted to discount the possibility that the train reported its position (calculated using GPS) back to the company's tracking system by passing location data over GSM-R (which normally has almost universal coverage), instead presumably relying on the public mobile phone networks (which have some pretty big gaps!).

The problem with calls going to the wrong box usually seem to occur where boxes (in absolute block land) are close together or where each of two adjacent boxes controls an intermediate block signal equidistant between the two, one in each direction - obviously there's unlikely to be a train describer to assist in that case. There are also plenty of others which are harder to explain in the middle of a ROC's area of control or at least in areas where there's a train describer which should sort things out correctly.

 

[Dave1987]

Those first OBS recruited by Southern from outside the industry must have been there about a year already and, as you say, they are still recruiting more. Where have all those posters gone who were adamant that the rest of us were being very naive if we honestly thought the role would survive more than a few months ?

The RMT dropped a large clanger with refusing to recognise the OBS role. Is it any wonder that TOCs see little point in negotiating anything with such a union ?

How exactly have the RMT dropped “a large clanger” by refusing to represent a role they do not recognise or believe in? According to you they don’t need any representation. The TOC created the role, unions are not obliged to represent it.

 

[Confused52]

How exactly have the RMT dropped “a large clanger” by refusing to represent a role they do not recognise or believe in? According to you they don’t need any representation. The TOC created the role, unions are not obliged to represent it.

Possibly because the Union was formed to look after the members rather than policing the ideological purity of the railway. When the number of non-represented staff is sufficiently high surely the Union will lose its mandate.

 

[Robertj21a]

How exactly have the RMT dropped “a large clanger” by refusing to represent a role they do not recognise or believe in? According to you they don’t need any representation. The TOC created the role, unions are not obliged to represent it.

Well, usually, you are one of the first to say how wonderful the RMT is and how they are so good at representing staff. It must seem a little odd (to most people other than you) that their immature 'sulking' has resulted in so many staff not being represented by them. Very short sighted, but not at all surprising.

 

[XDM]

Possibly because the Union was formed to look after the members rather than policing the ideological purity of the railway.

Not entirely true.
The RMT has another higher purpose which explains the somewhat rude comments about private rail companies.

Rule 4b may mean nothing to some members but it has to be taken seriously by full time RMT staff.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/rmt-rule-book/

Objects
4. The objects of the Union shall be:-

(a) to secure the complete organisation of all workers employed by any board, company or authority in connection with rail, sea and other transport and ancillary undertakings and offshore energy;

(b) to work for the supersession of the capitalist system by a socialistic order of society;

 

[Dave1987]

Well, usually, you are one of the first to say how wonderful the RMT is and how they are so good at representing staff. It must seem a little odd (to most people other than you) that their immature 'sulking' has resulted in so many staff not being represented by them. Very short sighted, but not at all surprising.

Actually I believe that the RMT have performed quite badly and done a great disservice to their members recently with the quite appalling PR they have given out. But they are under no obligation to represent the OBS grade. You may call it “immature sulking” but it is the TOC management who have created the grade. You actually seem to be “sulking” that a grade you believe in are not currently entitled to any union representation. But again I seem to remember you also saying that you don’t believe the OBS needs union representation. So you have contradicted yourself.

 

[Carlisle]

it's a dispute fuelled out of mess room talk and guards self importance.

Not forgetting that given northern’s and indeed much of the industry’s recent poor performance in the region , there’s probably no shortage of drivers confidently urging their guard colleagues, that once ASLEF join the dispute, any proposals could easily and quietly be shelved in an almost identical manner to GWR and Scotrail.

 

[Robertj21a]

Actually I believe that the RMT have performed quite badly and done a great disservice to their members recently with the quite appalling PR they have given out. But they are under no obligation to represent the OBS grade. You may call it “immature sulking” but it is the TOC management who have created the grade. You actually seem to be “sulking” that a grade you believe in are not currently entitled to any union representation. But again I seem to remember you also saying that you don’t believe the OBS needs union representation. So you have contradicted yourself.

Not at all. As I've said all along, the Southern OBS *may* not see any great need to join any union given that many have come from industries where unions weren't necessary (I appreciate that some on here disagree with me on that!). I just think, from the RMT point of view, they've dropped a clanger - and now can't see a way to avoid looking a bit silly. In the meantime, I don't hear any screaming demand from the OBS that they actually need to have any union membership.

 

[ComUtoR]

I just think, from the RMT point of view, they've dropped a clanger - and now can't see a way to avoid looking a bit silly. In the meantime, I don't hear any screaming demand from the OBS that they actually need to have any union membership.

There is nothing stopping any OBS from joining the RMT Some may have already been a member before they changed grade and are still active members. You don't get kicked out if you suddenly changed grade. I know Drivers who are in the RMT

 

[northwichcat]

There is nothing stopping any OBS from joining the RMT Some may have already been a member before they changed grade and are still active members. You don't get kicked out if you suddenly changed grade. I know Drivers who are in the RMT

It's been widely claimed the RMT refuse to accept the OBS role with former guards who are now OBS' still seen as guards by the RMT and new people employed as OBS' not being invited to join the RMT.

 

[Robertj21a]

There is nothing stopping any OBS from joining the RMT Some may have already been a member before they changed grade and are still active members. You don't get kicked out if you suddenly changed grade. I know Drivers who are in the RMT

But others on here have confirmed that the RMT doesn't recognise the OBS position.

 

[ComUtoR]

So every single RMT member who moved from the Guard grade has now been kicked out the RMT ?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Watching the new Dr Who DOO seems out from now on!

 

[Robertj21a]

So every single RMT member who moved from the Guard grade has now been kicked out the RMT ?

I understood that the RMT still classifies the existing staff as Guards - is that not correct ?

 

[Carlisle]

I understood that the RMT still classifies the existing staff as Guards - is that not correct ?

Im pretty sure that’s correct, they’re classed as guards in dispute.
However unless the union additionally plan to expell all Javelin OBMs, Scotrail TEs or almost any other non safety critical member carrying out any former guards duties, on similar ideological grounds, I cant see it making any sense.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Not forgetting that given northern’s and indeed much of the industry’s recent poor performance in the region , there’s probably no shortage of drivers confidently urging their guard colleagues, that once ASLEF join the dispute, any proposals could easily and quietly be shelved in an almost identical manner to GWR and Scotrail.

Would it maybe be in the intrests of Northern & their passengers for Northern to go to ASLEF and essentially force them to strike so they can reach a deal?

 

[a_c_skinner]

No, because management will meet ASLEF strikes in the same way as the RMT strikes.

 

[coppercapped]

I genuinely don’t know. Does the bus or the train or whatever report its position back to the tracking system using a data connection over the mobile phone systems, does it use the GPS satellites, or does it do something else altogether? It’s one thing if the train knows where it is, it’s quite another to share that knowledge with the rest of the world.

I'm coming late to this bit of the discussion!

There are two separate issues, GPS tracking and signalling which have become confused.

A conventional signalling system can locate a train only to the accuracy given by the length of the track circuits or axle counter blocks - that is to within a kilometer or less depending on the length of the individual block. In absolute block areas with long blocks then this distance could be several kilometers.

The GPS radio locks on to the base station with the strongest signal and the base stations will hand off the mobile from one base station to the next as the signal strength waxes and wanes as the vehicle moves. This is standard GSM technology. There is no inherent position tracking in GSM - a mobile can be located, in best case to within a few metres, by triangulating the signal strength received at several base stations but this is a process carried out by the network and not the mobile. In an emergency the all trains stop signal is received by the base station that the mobile is talking to and re-radiated. This is why trains on parallel routes can also be stopped as the base stations cover areas which may include other lines.

The data transmission part of GSM-R is intended to carry the messages generated by the European Train Control System part of ERTMS - these report the beacon (balise) that the train has passed to the signalling centre and receives the movement authority in return. GSM-R does not itself track the position of the train - it carries the signalling system messages and it's the signalling system which knows where the train is to within a few metres as well as the vehicle's speed and direction and the track it is on.

Vehicle tracking using GPS, or the European Galileo or the Russian GLONASS equivalents, uses the GPS receiver (which these days are very small - there's one in every smartphone!) in the vehicle. This reports its position (and speed and direction and altitude if needed) at intervals using the standard mobile phone network. As it's data being transmitted, rather than voice, the mobile transmitters often use whichever mobile network offers the strongest signal at that location. Depending on the level of encryption to which the user is entitled positional accuracies to the centimeter are possible. GPS tracking is not at the moment used for signalling purposes, at least on European railways, as in times of crisis the accuracies can be degraded or the whole network turned off. It is however used for other purposes which are not safety critical - measuring dwell times for example.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm coming late to this bit of the discussion!

There are two separate issues, GPS tracking and signalling which have become confused.

A conventional signalling system can locate a train only to the accuracy given by the length of the track circuits or axle counter blocks - that is to within a kilometer or less depending on the length of the individual block. In absolute block areas with long blocks then this distance could be several kilometers.

The GPS radio locks on to the base station with the strongest signal and the base stations will hand off the mobile from one base station to the next as the signal strength waxes and wanes as the vehicle moves. This is standard GSM technology. There is no inherent position tracking in GSM - a mobile can be located, in best case to within a few metres, by triangulating the signal strength received at several base stations but this is a process carried out by the network and not the mobile. In an emergency the all trains stop signal is received by the base station that the mobile is talking to and re-radiated. This is why trains on parallel routes can also be stopped as the base stations cover areas which may include other lines.

The data transmission part of GSM-R is intended to carry the messages generated by the European Train Control System part of ERTMS - these report the beacon (balise) that the train has passed to the signalling centre and receives the movement authority in return. GSM-R does not itself track the position of the train - it carries the signalling system messages and it's the signalling system which knows where the train is to within a few metres as well as the vehicle's speed and direction and the track it is on.

Vehicle tracking using GPS, or the European Galileo or the Russian GLONASS equivalents, uses the GPS receiver (which these days are very small - there's one in every smartphone!) in the vehicle. This reports its position (and speed and direction and altitude if needed) at intervals using the standard mobile phone network. As it's data being transmitted, rather than voice, the mobile transmitters often use whichever mobile network offers the strongest signal at that location. Depending on the level of encryption to which the user is entitled positional accuracies to the centimeter are possible. GPS tracking is not at the moment used for signalling purposes, at least on European railways. It is however used for other purposes which are not safety critical - measuring dwell times for example.

Thanks, that's pretty much as I understood it (but explained better). My comments related to the earlier statement that some (probably most) have some sort of GPS tracking reporting back to Control - which could possibly be helpful in more accurately locating a 'train in distress' in the middle of a long AB section but which can't really be relied upon if it uses the standard mobile phone network. All pretty unlikely scenarios, I know.

 

[Killingworth]

Watching the new Dr Who DOO seems out from now on!

As a Sheffield user of the Hope Valley line there were so many things wrong that my wife wanted me to leave the room for all my exclamations! Internal and external shots of a 3 coach train inconsistent with each other, and anything running on the line. Lady driver killed by apparent collision with an alien object causing emergency braking between Hathersage and Grindleford, apparently operating DOO, yet with manual doors and external handles allowing immediate exit onto track - and warning that it could be live.

Leaving aside the sudden onset of total darkness for the last train, the woods nearby were like those near the tracks at this point, but where PC Yasmine Khan parked her car to get so near are a puzzle. It's a mobile phone black spot in that area anyway. Hopefully tonight's crew won't have a Tardis crashing through the roof!

Yes, users of the line are now even more concerned to have a second crew member aboard, especially one trained to deal with alien forces! No doubt members of the police service will be alarmed by some of the PC's actions and suitable training will be given.

Dr Who at; https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p06jcn8k/doctor-who-series-11-1-the-woman-who-fell-to-earth

 

[Red Devil]

No, because management will meet ASLEF strikes in the same way as the RMT strikes.

I very much doubt that. At the moment when guard's strike some trains run. If ASLEF strike none will run.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I was glossing over all that, she wasn't even Transport Police.

 

[xc170]

RMT Doing it’s best to damage its reputation even further...

 

[LOL The Irony]

View attachment 53537 RMT Doing it’s best to damage its reputation even further...

Using a disaster to prove a point. Slick...

 

[Darandio]

Excellent work by the RMT again. I thought they would be better at this by now given the practice they have had.