Arriva Rail North DOO

[CN75]

To me, it's whatever infrastructure is felt necessary to ensure safe operation. It would probably need an independent review as I doubt if everybody would accept anything done by a TOC/NR - or any Union.

In practice: GSM radio coverage, sufficient lighting on the platforms and functioning DO train-mounted cameras are the infrastructure changes needed nowadays. GSM radio was installed nationwide a couple of years ago, where previously only the South East and some pockets of Edinburgh and Glasgow for the most part had a radio system fit for DOO-Passenger, and therefore those were the only places British Rail introduced it. DOO non passenger trains already run across the whole country’s infrastructure. Authority to run DOO passenger trains would be given by Network Rail under standard processes. ASLEF or the RMT would not be involved beyond checking that the laid down regulations had been followed.

In terms of the latest standard in-cab DOO systems installed on brand new trains, it would be expected that they should pass any ‘fit for purpose’ test quite straightforwardly.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The LU network exists in a totally different environment

It is Thameslink, before that BedPan that is the appropriate comparator.

 

[CN75]

Maybe not. Southern, at least, seem committed to the OBS grade. Time will tell how that plays out in the longer term, but it's certainly at odds with McNulty's desire to have trains operated by the driver alone by default. Given Northern's current understaffing, I'd have no confidence whatsoever in any vague commitments that they might provide.

Southern do appear to have done exactly what they always said they would do, and continue hiring more On Board Supervisors. Remarkably, the RMT still seem hellbent on remaining in dispute rather than regrouping and establishing themselves.

Anyone with a good understanding of the risks involved would appreciate the difference between the well-staffed, accessible London Underground network and the often deeply rural Northern network.

There have been many high speed, rural services with level crossings and such running DOO for about the past 30 years (ie Greater Anglia, Chiltern, Great Western, LTS).

 

[Robertj21a]

Southern do appear to have done exactly what they always said they would do, and continue hiring more On Board Supervisors. Remarkably, the RMT still seem hellbent on remaining in dispute rather than regrouping and establishing themselves.

Those first OBS recruited by Southern from outside the industry must have been there about a year already and, as you say, they are still recruiting more. Where have all those posters gone who were adamant that the rest of us were being very naive if we honestly thought the role would survive more than a few months ?

The RMT dropped a large clanger with refusing to recognise the OBS role. Is it any wonder that TOCs see little point in negotiating anything with such a union ?

 

[johnmoly]

There were two class 331 four car trains at Edge Hill sidings, Liverpool yesterday. In Northern livery and still had the plastic protective seat covers on.

 

[a_c_skinner]

RMT dropped a large clanger with refusing to recognise the OBS role.

Wasn't it about industrial muscle, the ability to stop trains running?

 

[coppercapped]

Maybe not. Southern, at least, seem committed to the OBS grade. Time will tell how that plays out in the longer term, but it's certainly at odds with McNulty's desire to have trains operated by the driver alone by default. Given Northern's current understaffing, I'd have no confidence whatsoever in any vague commitments that they might provide.

This is what McNulty actually wrote, my emphasis:

Driver Only Operation (DOO) is a safe method of operation and improves performance, with fewer human interactions involved in the door opening, door closing and dispatch procedure.
The financial imperatives facing the industry, the need to change radically the cost structure of the industry, and the availability of new communications technology has led the Study to recommend that the default position for all services on the GB rail network should be DOO with a second member of train crew only being provided where there is a commercial, technical or other imperative.
The Study recommends early implementation of DOO where practicable. Further implementation can take place when stations or rolling stock have been provided with the necessary equipment.

McNulty nowhere recommended that (a) every train should be Driver Only Operated and (b) that DOO should be introduced before the necessary equipment is in place.

 

[ComUtoR]

This is what McNulty actually wrote, my emphasis:

McNulty nowhere recommended that (a) every train should be Driver Only Operated

The financial imperatives facing the industry, the need to change radically the cost structure of the industry, and the availability of new communications technology has led the Study to recommend that the default position for all services on the GB rail network should be DOO with a second member of train crew only being provided where there is a commercial, technical or other imperative.

Is there a difference between 'every train' and 'all services' ?

 

[Confused52]

Is there a difference between 'every train' and 'all services' ?

Yes. The quote "all services" was taken out of context and maintains its meaning only as the full sentence. In that it is clear that it is a default with conditions which over-ride it. The full quoted sentence therefore most certainly does not have the same meaning as "all trains". Thus the question you pose is not relevant because it is based on an inappropriate selective quotation.

 

[Tomnick]

What is different between the deeply rural Northern network(where incidentally?) & the empty level crossing riddled DOO routes from Wickford to Southminster & Cambridge to Kings Lynn?

ANYONE WITH an understanding of risks will answer nothing.

As DOO has worked perfectly safely on these rural routes for DECADES it will work perfectly safely on the routes Northern is choosing to DOO.

Anyone with an understanding of risk management principles would understand that nothing is "perfectly" safe.

There's not anywhere on the Kings Lynn line that's anywhere near as inaccessible as the likes of Blea Moor or the top of Dent Dale, the middle of Totley Tunnel or the Vale of Edale.

This is what McNulty actually wrote, my emphasis:

McNulty nowhere recommended that (a) every train should be Driver Only Operated and (b) that DOO should be introduced before the necessary equipment is in place.

No, and I didn't say that he did either. I said that he recommended that the default position should be DOO, with additional members of staff only provided where the TOC or the DfT considers it worthwhile (presumably financially worthwhile).

 

[a_c_skinner]

There's not anywhere on the Kings Lynn line that's anywhere near as inaccessible as the likes of Blea Moor or the top of Dent Dale, the middle of Totley Tunnel or the Vale of Edale.

A guard won't make it any more accessible though. There should be ways of keeping tabs on a train that fails other than awaiting contact from the crewe, even if the driver is incapacitated. DOO on the Brighton Line covers some long tunnels too.

I do think most of Northern's routes should have a second person on the train to care for customers, but the case is customer care, not somewhat hyperbolic cases of safety.

 

[coppercapped]

SNIPPED
No, and I didn't say that he did either. I said that he recommended that the default position should be DOO, with additional members of staff only provided where the TOC or the DfT considers it worthwhile (presumably financially worthwhile).

I'm glad you clarified that because I parsed your post

Maybe not. Southern, at least, seem committed to the OBS grade. Time will tell how that plays out in the longer term, but it's certainly at odds with McNulty's desire to have trains operated by the driver alone by default. Given Northern's current understaffing, I'd have no confidence whatsoever in any vague commitments that they might provide.

to mean that McNulty recommended DOO with no provisos which is why I quoted from McNulty's report.

 

[Tomnick]

A guard won't make it any more accessible though. There should be ways of keeping tabs on a train that fails other than awaiting contact from the crewe, even if the driver is incapacitated. DOO on the Brighton Line covers some long tunnels too.

I do think most of Northern's routes should have a second person on the train to care for customers, but the case is customer care, not somewhat hyperbolic cases of safety.

No, a guard won't make it more accessible but they can look after the passengers whilst the driver's out doing what the driver needs to do. If the emergency services need to attend or an emergency evacuation is necessary, it's likely to be a long way to the nearest access point and it's going to take that much longer to get some more staff there to assist. Maybe there should be ways of keeping tabs on a train that fails, but there aren't at the moment - the closest you get is the DSD alarm, which won't tell anyone exactly or even roughly where the train is, and won't be sent at all if the GSM-R is knocked out along with the driver in an impact.

The justification for a second member of staff has to be a combination of safety, customer service and accessibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those first OBS recruited by Southern from outside the industry must have been there about a year already and, as you say, they are still recruiting more. Where have all those posters gone who were adamant that the rest of us were being very naive if we honestly thought the role would survive more than a few months ?

I'll be honest, I was surprised - but it does seem they have decided to stick with it.

 

[a_c_skinner]

and won't be sent at all if the GSM-R is knocked out along with the driver in an impact.

In which case any number of staff members will only be able to await developments. I suppose there are still clips for parts of the network that are TCB, do we still carry detonators? The conductor at Ais Gill didn't place them but wouldn't have had time to walk far enough even had it been light. That was nearly 25 years ago, as it happened any action by the train crewe wouldn't have helped as there wasn't time. Has something like this happened since? I'm sorry to say it is really difficult to make a strong safety argument.

 

[Tomnick]

There's always the GSM-R in the rear cab, track circuit clips that might or might not be effective, detonators to carry out emergency protection, lineside phones, going to the signal box etc., none of which are particularly effective without someone who is alive/conscious and has route knowledge.

There have been numerous incidents requiring emergency protection in the last 25 years, some serious and some not so serious. Just from RAIB investigations in recent years: the landslip north of Watford Tunnel left a train inside the tunnel derailed and foul of the adjacent line on which a train was approaching at linespeed (and also left the driver initially trapped in the cab?), the derailment following a collision with a cow in Kent knocked out the GSM-R in the leading cab, the emergency services took a long time to provide Network Rail with the necessary information to stop the job after a report from a member of the public about a line being obstructed - thankfully I don't think any of those were particularly major incidents, but once you line up a couple of 'holes in the cheese', you have the makings of something much more serious.

 

[Smidster]

If the three October "Saturday" strike days on 6th, 13th and 20th of the month are intended to convey the stated RMT worries about safety, why has the 27th October not been added to these?

Because we need to make sure that the guards have a good Christmas - Never mind the misery they are causing for the rest of us and the livelihoods that their actions are putting on the line.

 

[footprints]

You have to laugh at the RMT this morning issuing a press release attacking Northern Rail's "ludicrous" position of setting pre-conditions to any talks, only to then admit that they "will not compromise". So pre-conditions are fine on their behalf but no one else's?

 

[LowLevel]

No, a guard won't make it more accessible but they can look after the passengers whilst the driver's out doing what the driver needs to do. If the emergency services need to attend or an emergency evacuation is necessary, it's likely to be a long way to the nearest access point and it's going to take that much longer to get some more staff there to assist. Maybe there should be ways of keeping tabs on a train that fails, but there aren't at the moment - the closest you get is the DSD alarm, which won't tell anyone exactly or even roughly where the train is, and won't be sent at all if the GSM-R is knocked out along with the driver in an impact.

The justification for a second member of staff has to be a combination of safety, customer service and accessibility.

Our trains can be tracked nearly to the foot by control as long as the Americans don't turn GPS off - they have a GPS tracking system fitted to them which is surprisingly accurate.

However GSMR is often quoted as the end to all ills on the railway. It isn't. Northern became the latest operator to have a train involved in a collision last week that caused serious issues with the GSMR.

 

[northwichcat]

Because we need to make sure that the guards have a good Christmas - Never mind the misery they are causing for the rest of us and the livelihoods that their actions are putting on the line.

Maybe passengers should show the guards lumps of coal instead of tickets in protest at the continued disruption due to industrial action.

 

[Carlisle]

Our trains can be tracked nearly to the foot by control as long as the Americans don't turn GPS off - they have a GPS tracking system fitted to them which is surprisingly accurate.

Considering a fair proportion of company cars, vans, busses, coaches and HGVs these days are routinely monitored by their firms using trackers, its not all that surprising I guess.,

If it isn’t currently deemed an essential component of any new DOO scheme it’d probably be sensible and relatively inexpensive (in railway terms), to add it anyway.

 

[CN75]

There's always the GSM-R in the rear cab, track circuit clips that might or might not be effective, detonators to carry out emergency protection, lineside phones, going to the signal box etc., none of which are particularly effective without someone who is alive/conscious and has route knowledge.

There have been numerous incidents requiring emergency protection in the last 25 years, some serious and some not so serious. Just from RAIB investigations in recent years: the landslip north of Watford Tunnel left a train inside the tunnel derailed and foul of the adjacent line on which a train was approaching at linespeed (and also left the driver initially trapped in the cab?), the derailment following a collision with a cow in Kent knocked out the GSM-R in the leading cab, the emergency services took a long time to provide Network Rail with the necessary information to stop the job after a report from a member of the public about a line being obstructed - thankfully I don't think any of those were particularly major incidents, but once you line up a couple of 'holes in the cheese', you have the makings of something much more serious.

Driver only empty and freight trains run nationwide daily and the risk arising doesn’t lead to accidents regularly requiring emergency protection. Any On board staff should trained to use the GSM-R as a minimum.

 

[Tomnick]

Driver only empty and freight trains run nationwide daily and the risk arising doesn’t lead to accidents regularly requiring emergency protection. Any On board staff should trained to use the GSM-R as a minimum.

No, I accept that the increased risk arising from emergency situations is small. It's still an increased risk though, and forms part, even if a small part, of the overall justification for retaining a second safety-critical member of staff.

You can't effectively use the GSM-R in an emergency unless you know where you are, hence the applicability of route knowledge.

 

[Tomnick]

Our trains can be tracked nearly to the foot by control as long as the Americans don't turn GPS off - they have a GPS tracking system fitted to them which is surprisingly accurate.

However GSMR is often quoted as the end to all ills on the railway. It isn't. Northern became the latest operator to have a train involved in a collision last week that caused serious issues with the GSMR.

I don't know a lot about the GPS tracking system - but presumably the train knows where it is and reports that back to the tracking system by some sort of data connection. Unless it uses the GSM-R system, I'd imagine that it has some quite substantial dead spots around the network, probably most crucially in the least accessible parts of the network.

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't know a lot about the GPS tracking system - but presumably the train knows where it is and reports that back to the tracking system by some sort of data connection. Unless it uses the GSM-R system, I'd imagine that it has some quite substantial dead spots around the network, probably most crucially in the least accessible parts of the network.

As many buses in the UK can be tracked down to a matter of 100 metres or less, I'm sure that a satellite should find it fairly simple to track a train.

 

[142Pilot]

Gps doesn't work in tunnels.

Don't @ me.

 

[Tomnick]

As many buses in the UK can be tracked down to a matter of 100 metres or less, I'm sure that a satellite should find it fairly simple to track a train.

I genuinely don’t know. Does the bus or the train or whatever report its position back to the tracking system using a data connection over the mobile phone systems, does it use the GPS satellites, or does it do something else altogether? It’s one thing if the train knows where it is, it’s quite another to share that knowledge with the rest of the world.

 

[Darandio]

Gps doesn't work in tunnels.

Don't @ me.

But it works at the entry and exit point, just like with other monitored transport modes that use tunnels.

 

[Carlisle]

Does the bus or the train or whatever report its position back to the tracking system using a data connection over the mobile phone systems, does it use the GPS satellites, .

Don’t most trackers usually use a combination of mobile data and GPS satellites to gain the most accurate location

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Surely it's the job of the Department for Transport and TOCs with industry safety boards to examine the safety case and implications behind DOO. The RMT safety mantra is not fooling many people, it's a dispute fuelled out of mess room talk and guards self importance. The railway is only getting busier we will need more staff not less, they have committed to staffing trains through franchise agreements. As we have seen Guards are just as easy to get rid of as any other grade of staff.