Merseyrail and Giants event

[Bletchleyite]

I absolutely agree that dropping the smaller stations without any obvious advertised replacement is not on

This is my main issue. If a shuttle bus service had been arranged to run Ormskirk-Maghull North (or just one bus doing Ormskirk-Aughton Park-Town Green shuttles), for instance, my objections at that end of the line would be limited. I can see what they are trying to do, it's just they are doing it the wrong way.

One bus would probably have been fine, as many people round there would choose to drive to Ormskirk or Maghull North anyway and Aughton Park and Town Green are hardly metropolises - it's just about providing properly and well in advance for those who that wouldn't suit.

Obviously do the same thing at other stations.

However when I have been to big events in London, it is a regular occurance for the underground stations to get shut due to safety concerns with no advanced warning. I remember having to hike from Green Park to Euston and Marble Arch to Waterloo (both 4 times the distance between any of the Central Merseyrail stations and further than both Chester to Bache and Aughton to Ormskirk) during similar sized events shutting the underground. Everyone just grumbled, accepted it and cracked on. Yet Merseytravel and Merseyrail release a plan saying exactly what is going to happen to keep everyone safe and people are up in arms about having to walk from Moorfields to Lime Street. Maybe they should have done nothing, run the trains as normal, and then when someone is pushed off the platform at Liverpool Central, they can defend themselves by sighting Joe Bloggs who had bought a through ticket from Formby to London and they didn't want to inconvenience him.

I accept the Central Liverpool situation as being an annoyance but understandable (though if the road situation allowed it I would have suggested they operate a shuttle bus from Moorfields to Lime St for those holding through tickets beyond Liverpool only, or split onward tickets). It's the withdrawal of service without replacement at outlying stations that is not acceptable.

They could also have considered making frequency reductions at the outer reaches of the network - turning 2 of the 4tph back at Maghull might for instance be sensible, or running only hourly Chester-Hooton but calling at all stations. That is massively preferable over closing stations, particularly if announced properly in advance and in the Journey Planners.

(These are outlying stations that barely have any public transport; it's not like central London isn't full of buses so it isn't a valid comparison)

 

[B&I]

》If they want to play at being Metrolink (not that I'm convinced TfGM would do anything quite so stupid), let them enjoy it in full.

What about building Metrolink ?

For many years, particularly when I lived in Aigburth and Ceosby and used Merseyrail virtually every day, I was extremely grateful for their operation. Moving to Broad Green, and relying on Northern's spoof railway service, underlined these feelings. Now, however, it seems Merseyrail are succumbing to.the disease which afflicts the railways as a whole, and this country generally - don't worry about your customers, the taxpayer's money will roll in no matter how poor the service is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about building Metrolink ?

Even given that I used to call it "Metroc**p" and comment that it was perhaps a bit jealous of its similarly yellow-and-grey cohort at the other end of the M62 (or Chat Moss, if you prefer), I think it is actually a rather decent service these days, far away from the conversion on the cheap that it used to be.

The lack of proper fares integration nearly 30 years after it opened riles, though.

 

[notlob.divad]

There are no safety reasons for shutting suburban and rural stations miles from the events, without any RRBs.

I absolutly agree That is why I said.

dropping the smaller stations without any obvious advertised replacement is not on

And why, if such drastic cuts are necessary with this giants event, were similsr restrictions not imposed whwn the giants last visited ?

Maybe they have learnt lessons from last time, re-done the risk assesments, taken into account there is also a major Football fixture in the City this weekend. etc etc

There is something more than meets the eye to this.

There may well be, on the other hand there may be some very good reasons for the decisions that have been made.

Merseyrail, and Merseytravel, really have become quite lacklustre organisations recently. Projects which haven't proved that difficult elsewhere (eg station refurbishments, new trains, building minor new stations) seem to take inordinate amounts of time, energy and money, while in other respects, such as frequency and coverage of bus services, things are getting steadily worse. They give the impression of organisations on tick-over, who struggle to cope if anything other.than a basic service is required

I don't think the new trains are taking that long, given the equivilent time scales of other new units coming in. Particularly given it is a brand new design for the UK network.

As for the new station, isn't the construction of that firmly in Network Rail's scope?

The ticking over nature, could well be endemic of two things, one of which you have already mentioned. When the knowledge that new equipment is on its way, the motivation for keeping old equipment in good working order does tend to deminish. I have seen many examples of this in my job, where the knowledge of a big upgrade project coming tends to see a decline in the day to day maintainance standards. Additionally it is endemic of the long franchise length that has been granted, which tends to see a decent improvement in the early years and potentially a late surge towards the franchise renewal date, but a period of 'in the doldrums' in the middle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe they have learnt lessons from last time, re-done the risk assesments, taken into account there is also a major Football fixture in the City this weekend

I do wonder if that is the reason for not serving Sandhills - to mean they can just say Soccerbus won't work and direct the football fans onto other modes.

Other than Soccerbus, though, Sandhills is primarily an interchange, relatively few people live anywhere near it (there's the Eldonian estates, but people from those will mostly take the bus as the estates are mostly nearer the road), and there are relatively few businesses nearby too. It isn't the main issue here.

 

[nedchester]

This is my main issue. If a shuttle bus service had been arranged to run Ormskirk-Maghull North (or just one bus doing Ormskirk-Aughton Park-Town Green shuttles), for instance, my objections at that end of the line would be limited. I can see what they are trying to do, it's just they are doing it the wrong way.

One bus would probably have been fine, as many people round there would choose to drive to Ormskirk or Maghull North anyway and Aughton Park and Town Green are hardly metropolises - it's just about providing properly and well in advance for those who that wouldn't suit.

Obviously do the same thing at other stations.

I accept the Central Liverpool situation as being an annoyance but understandable (though if the road situation allowed it I would have suggested they operate a shuttle bus from Moorfields to Lime St for those holding through tickets beyond Liverpool only, or split onward tickets). It's the withdrawal of service without replacement at outlying stations that is not acceptable.

They could also have considered making frequency reductions at the outer reaches of the network - turning 2 of the 4tph back at Maghull might for instance be sensible, or running only hourly Chester-Hooton but calling at all stations. That is massively preferable over closing stations, particularly if announced properly in advance and in the Journey Planners.

(These are outlying stations that barely have any public transport; it's not like central London isn't full of buses so it isn't a valid comparison)

I don't think realistically anyone has real issues with the closing of stations in Liverpool itself with no provision for onward connections (although of course there could be issue where less able passengers are not able to get from say Moorfields to Lime Street which could open it's own can of worms.

I also understand the reason for running 6-car trains skip stopping stations to ensure more trains per hour get in and out of the city centre. They probably don't have the stock to run 6-car trains calling at all stations at the same frequency.

However, it is the non provision of RRB that gets to me. All the stations should have one to transfer passengers from the closed station to an open one. Merseyrail have not given a reason why they haven't. There is no excuse. The odd thing regarding Chester to Hooton shuttle is that they could call at BOTH Bache and Capenhurst and maintain the times just by reducing the turn round at Hooton by one minute from 9 mins to 8 mins. I have pointed this out to Merseyrail.

I had an email reply from Transport Focus yesterday regarding this issue and I have now forwarded them my email exchanges with Merseyrail Customer services and Andy Heath (MD Merseyrail). It may be interesting to see what happens when they intervene.

I still have a ticket valid Chester to Capenhurst which I intend to use on 6/10/18 and will see what the staff at Chester say when I say I can't get home. If they say they can't do anything then it'll be a taxi and I'll sent Merseyrail the bill.

 

[jamesst]

I don't think realistically anyone has real issues with the closing of stations in Liverpool itself with no provision for onward connections (although of course there could be issue where less able passengers are not able to get from say Moorfields to Lime Street which could open it's own can of worms.

I also understand the reason for running 6-car trains skip stopping stations to ensure more trains per hour get in and out of the city centre. They probably don't have the stock to run 6-car trains calling at all stations at the same frequency.

However, it is the non provision of RRB that gets to me. All the stations should have one to transfer passengers from the closed station to an open one. Merseyrail have not given a reason why they haven't. There is no excuse. The odd thing regarding Chester to Hooton shuttle is that they could call at BOTH Bache and Capenhurst and maintain the times just by reducing the turn round at Hooton by one minute from 9 mins to 8 mins. I have pointed this out to Merseyrail.

I had an email reply from Transport Focus yesterday regarding this issue and I have now forwarded them my email exchanges with Merseyrail Customer services and Andy Heath (MD Merseyrail). It may be interesting to see what happens when they intervene.

I still have a ticket valid Chester to Capenhurst which I intend to use on 6/10/18 and will see what the staff at Chester say when I say I can't get home. If they say they can't do anything then it'll be a taxi and I'll sent Merseyrail the bill.

I can already tell you what will happen, nothing. There's no way this amended timetable hasn't been agreed with all the relevant bodies (Merseytravel, Liverpool council, prob the dft and you'd be amazed how much influence btp/civil police can have on timetable changes).
I can also see the logic behind it, gets units round the network quicker and allows more to be doubled. This along with I imagine the struggle to get any staff to volunteer (there's a very much ongoing dispute don't forget) anymore means that there probably isn't much more on the timetabling front that could be done.
However I do agree that buses should of been used to fill the gaps, is this possibly down to Arriva/ local buses not being able to provide buses due to running additional services themselves?

 

[Bletchleyite]

However I do agree that buses should of been used to fill the gaps, is this possibly down to Arriva/ local buses not being able to provide buses due to running additional services themselves?

You can get buses from anywhere in the country with enough planning. I utterly fail to accept that no buses could have been obtained from anywhere.

 

[nedchester]

I can already tell you what will happen, nothing. There's no way this amended timetable hasn't been agreed with all the relevant bodies (Merseytravel, Liverpool council, prob the dft and you'd be amazed how much influence btp/civil police can have on timetable changes).
I can also see the logic behind it, gets units round the network quicker and allows more to be doubled. This along with I imagine the struggle to get any staff to volunteer (there's a very much ongoing dispute don't forget) anymore means that there probably isn't much more on the timetabling front that could be done.
However I do agree that buses should of been used to fill the gaps, is this possibly down to Arriva/ local buses not being able to provide buses due to running additional services themselves?

But what of those passengers who turn up with valid tickets to the closed stations. They are entitled to be transported to their destination as they have entered into a contract with the 'railway'.

My job is in timetable planning and when there is an amendment engineering work and other issues then putting in replacement buses for stations not served by trains is a given.

Why is Merseyrail any different?

 

[B&I]

Even given that I used to call it "Metroc**p" and comment that it was perhaps a bit jealous of its similarly yellow-and-grey cohort at the other end of the M62 (or Chat Moss, if you prefer), I think it is actually a rather decent service these days, far away from the conversion on the cheap that it used to be.

The lack of proper fares integration nearly 30 years after it opened riles, though.

I have commented so often on the stupidity of making a system apparently built out of Technic Lego the main means of transport for a conurbation of approaching 3 million that I am starting to bore myself on the subject. However bad Merseyrail gets, at least it's not that slow, low capacity, unreliable rubbish

 

[B&I]

I can already tell you what will happen, nothing. There's no way this amended timetable hasn't been agreed with all the relevant bodies (Merseytravel, Liverpool council, prob the dft and you'd be amazed how much influence btp/civil police can have on timetable changes).
I can also see the logic behind it, gets units round the network quicker and allows more to be doubled. This along with I imagine the struggle to get any staff to volunteer (there's a very much ongoing dispute don't forget) anymore means that there probably isn't much more on the timetabling front that could be done.
However I do agree that buses should of been used to fill the gaps, is this possibly down to Arriva/ local buses not being able to provide buses due to running additional services themselves?

I'm sure there are plenty of buses sitting around which used to be used to run all the services Merseytravel has cut recently

 

[jamesst]

But what of those passengers who turn up with valid tickets to the closed stations. They are entitled to be transported to their destination as they have entered into a contract with the 'railway'.

My job is in timetable planning and when there is an amendment engineering work and other issues then putting in replacement buses for stations not served by trains is a given.

Why is Merseyrail any different?

I never said it was, merely putting a view across! (free country and all that!)
For what it's worth I would of stuck to the plan from the last time which was broadly reduce everything to every 20mins and put as many 6 coaches in as possible.
However last time there was outrage in the local press that -shock horror- when thousands of people converged on the stations there was queuing. Living in London for 10years complaints about queuing and overcrowding here frankly make me laugh but is this timetable a response to the criticism last time?

 

[B&I]

.Maybe they have learnt lessons from last time, re-done the risk assesments, taken into account there is also a major Football fixture in the City this weekend. etc etc

I was out of town the first time the gigantic life size episode of 'Thunderbirds' took place, but I seem to remember Merseyrail rumming quite smoothly during the second show. It was Northern which was truly shambolic on the last occasion, with services at Lime Street completely overwhelmed

 

[nedchester]

The MD has been on Radio Merseyside to answer questions:

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/and...s-in-interview-with-bbc-radio-merseyside.aspx

Still no explanation about why 14% of Merseyrail's passengers are being let down by the non-provision of buses.

 

[TheSel]

The MD has been on Radio Merseyside to answer questions:

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/and...s-in-interview-with-bbc-radio-merseyside.aspx

Still no explanation about why 14% of Merseyrail's passengers are being let down by the non-provision of buses.

With all due respect, and I will bow to your superior knowledge if you're a qualified statistician, but I suspect that the temporary closure of this particular 14% of Merseyrail's stations (with or without RRB provision) will not let down 14% of Merseyrail's passengers. For instance, if I was 'Son of Beeching' (and as far as I'm aware I'm not), and was tasked with permanently closing 14% of stations on the entire network, I could do so by affecting significantly less than 14% of passengers carried - and conversely I could affect 14% (or more) of passengers by closing rather fewer stations. Anyone want to commission me to do such a study? I'm up for it for, say, £10,000,000 for a three year contract.

 

[Class83]

With all due respect, and I will bow to your superior knowledge if you're a qualified statistician, but I suspect that the temporary closure of this particular 14% of Merseyrail's stations (with or without RRB provision) will not let down 14% of Merseyrail's passengers. For instance, if I was 'Son of Beeching' (and as far as I'm aware I'm not), and was tasked with permanently closing 14% of stations on the entire network, I could do so by affecting significantly less than 14% of passengers carried - and conversely I could affect 14% (or more) of passengers by closing rather fewer stations. Anyone want to commission me to do such a study? I'm up for it for, say, £10,000,000 for a three year contract.

Merseyrail MD "we’re closing is nearly 50% of our stations, but this impacts only 14% of our passengers" though given that merseyrail season tickets are zonal, I'm always slightly suspicious about the allocation of passenger journeys between stations. Merseyrail is a bit like Animal Farm, not all routes and stations are equal in the eyes of the operator.

 

[Bevan Price]

I do wonder if that is the reason for not serving Sandhills - to mean they can just say Soccerbus won't work and direct the football fans onto other modes.

Other than Soccerbus, though, Sandhills is primarily an interchange, relatively few people live anywhere near it (there's the Eldonian estates, but people from those will mostly take the bus as the estates are mostly nearer the road), and there are relatively few businesses nearby too. It isn't the main issue here.

And all the people who interchange between lines at Sandhills will instead have to interchange at Moorfields - which is likely to be very busy without these extra passengers.

Let this situation be a lesson to anyone who thinks that diverting "city Line" services to Central would be a good idea.....
The words "brewery", "up", "p*ss", "organise", "couldn't", come to mind regarding Merseyrail / Merseytravel.

 

[Bevan Price]

And just to make travel even better, it looks like the ****ing RMT guards at Northern are likely to be on holiday on Saturday 6 October:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/upcoming-northern-strike-information.170078/

If they can afford to take so many unpaid days off work, should we start to wonder if they are now overpaid and won't need any pay rises for the next few years ??

 

[Tomnick]

And just to make travel even better, it looks like the ****ing RMT guards at Northern are likely to be on holiday on Saturday 6 October:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/upcoming-northern-strike-information.170078/

If they can afford to take so many unpaid days off work, should we start to wonder if they are now overpaid and won't need any pay rises for the next few years ??

With apologies for continuing to take it off topic, I'd suggest that it actually shows their collective strength of feeling on the matter. Very few people could afford to take a loss of pay to this extent lightly.

 

[Starmill]

I accept the Central Liverpool situation as being an annoyance but understandable (though if the road situation allowed it I would have suggested they operate a shuttle bus from Moorfields to Lime St for those holding through tickets beyond Liverpool only, or split onward tickets). It's the withdrawal of service without replacement at outlying stations that is not acceptable.

I think this really is the crux of the matter. If changes are advertised well in advance then a reduction in frequency, or even a complete withdrawal and replacement with bus service is tolerable and the benefits that are reaped from strengthening other services probably make it worthwhile. What Merseyrail have done, which is a last-minute announcement of totally withdrawn services, isn't acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this really is the crux of the matter. If changes are advertised well in advance then a reduction in frequency, or even a complete withdrawal and replacement with bus service is tolerable and the benefits that are reaped from strengthening other services probably make it worthwhile. What Merseyrail have done, which is a last-minute announcement of totally withdrawn services, isn't acceptable.

Yes, that's essentially my view. Advertised at least a month (ideally two) in advance, and with adequate RRB provision, this would be a perfectly acceptable and indeed sensible move.

 

[nedchester]

Yes, that's essentially my view. Advertised at least a month (ideally two) in advance, and with adequate RRB provision, this would be a perfectly acceptable and indeed sensible move.

Agree totally. The crux of the matter is the lack of provision of RRB to me.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have commented so often on the stupidity of making a system apparently built out of Technic Lego the main means of transport for a conurbation of approaching 3 million that I am starting to bore myself on the subject. However bad Merseyrail gets, at least it's not that slow, low capacity, unreliable rubbish

On the assumption that you're talking about Metrolink (?) you'll have to explain what seems to upset you. I use it quite a lot and find that it's generally very good indeed. What do you see as the problem ?

 

[Clip]

On the assumption that you're talking about Metrolink (?) you'll have to explain what seems to upset you. I use it quite a lot and find that it's generally very good indeed. What do you see as the problem ?

I must say it does seem to be quite slow compared to Tramlink but maybe I've not used it in the right places

 

[M28361M]

I have received an email from the MD himself this evening and he says that the whole thing has been agreed with Merseytravel. But however, I’d be interested to see what reply you get from Merseytravel (I’ve email them as well but got nothing back yet)

I received a reply today from Merseytravel which seemed to be a "cut and paste" generic response (they must be getting LOTS of complaints!) and didn't actually address my specific question. However they did say that the overall plan for the event was a "joint agency approach" which implies that they gave the revised train plan the thumbs up.

I still think it's shameful. Lack of buses, lack of notice, and an overall lack of consideration. Disappointing, and frankly has put me off even going to see the Giants next weekend.

 

[nedchester]

I received a reply today from Merseytravel which seemed to be a "cut and paste" generic response (they must be getting LOTS of complaints!) and didn't actually address my specific question. However they did say that the overall plan for the event was a "joint agency approach" which implies that they gave the revised train plan the thumbs up.

I still think it's shameful. Lack of buses, lack of notice, and an overall lack of consideration. Disappointing, and frankly has put me off even going to see the Giants next weekend.

I suspect the 'joint agency approach' means that the likes of Merseytravel just rubber stamped the process.

At no point has anyone explained WHY buses haven't been provided.

 

[B&I]

On the assumption that you're talking about Metrolink (?) you'll have to explain what seems to upset you. I use it quite a lot and find that it's generally very good indeed. What do you see as the problem ?

At the risk of repeating myself, when I travel on it, I tend to find that the journeys are painfully slow, that it is like the Black Hole of Calcutta on wheels at peak times and crowded even off peak (due to the low capacity of its vehicles), and it is subject to frequent breakdowns. Had someone ever bothered building a proper heavy rail S bahn / metro in Manchester, as a city of its size deserves, I suspect it wouldn't have the worst traffic congestion in Britain outside London

 

[fowler9]

Blimey. It's an almost one off event. Anyone who expects to have a normal train service is insane. I plan to go no where that isn't very local that weekend. It doesn't interest me in the slightest but is good for the city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blimey. It's an almost one off event. Anyone who expects to have a normal train service is insane. I plan to go no where that isn't very local that weekend. It doesn't interest me in the slightest but is good for the city.

Good for you. Now what about those who have to work and live near the unserved stations?

 

[fowler9]

Good for you. Now what about those who have to work and live near the unserved stations?

I have to work Christmas day. Cry me a river.