East Midlands Franchise 2019-

[Skymonster]

An At-Seat service brings in more sales than a buffet service, it's better for business and obviously preferable by the customer...

If that I measurably the case then at least I can understand why it has been done although I still think it was a bad move. As far as I'm concerned I almost always spent money at the buffet in the past although I don't think I have ever bought anything from the trolley - even if it turns up which certainly isn't aways the case. Evenings in particular I would typically buy one - maybe two - cans of beer from the buffet, and maybe pick up some crisps or a sandwich while I was there. They beers were always well chilled. Now the trolley offers grossly overpriced items and they are not even cold. And I won't pay silly money for such products when the reality is I can buy at least twice as much from the cooled shelves from M&S at St. P and it'll stay chilled for long enough on the journey. Had the policy not changed, I would still be buying on the train. The other problem is I've been on more than enough trains recently when it's been announced that there are too many people standing for the trolley to make its way along the train - well if it's too busy for the trolley to move I'm certainly not fighting my way through to find it, whereas when there was a buffet I'd often chose a seat nearby to it to ensure I could get access...

The Meridian fleet was refurbished only 7 years ago and is looking well, apart from day-to-day dirt around the headrests, which could easily be remidied with a deep clean.

Several of the Meridians I've been on recently have had a number filthy seat cloths - to the extent where I've chosen not to sit on some of the worst - while more than a few are becoming threadbare or ripped. It's not what I expect when I am paying three figures for a return trip into London. Realistically though I far prefer the HSTs over the Meridians, although the lack of at-seat power in standard is a disappointing omission (even many of our local buses have USB power ports). In the real world it is obvious that EMT only did a light makeover on the HSTs when other operators including VTEC and GWR were much more thorough - the only redeeming features of EMT's HSTs is the retention of more four seat bays rather than replacing them with airline style seats.

As I said further up thread some of us remember MML in the early days of franchising under National Express. It seems to me that since Stagecoach has taken over, the fare take has increased but the facilities have deteriorated (or failed to keep pace with the better benchmarks in the industry). Taking more and delivering less is never a good way of winning customer commitment - but of course the problem is most of us in the East Midlands don't really have much choice.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Recently I have noticed that the seats on the meridians are getting thin and looking very worn. Although not as warn as the HST's, although this isn't helped by the ride quality which has got worse as they are showing their age - is this down to them replacing the dampers/suspension with cheap rubbish? (I'm sure I heard this somewhere but not sure how opinionated it was)

 

[edwin_m]

Recently I have noticed that the seats on the meridians are getting thin and looking very worn. Although not as warn as the HST's, although this isn't helped by the ride quality which has got worse as they are showing their age - is this down to them replacing the dampers/suspension with cheap rubbish? (I'm sure I heard this somewhere but not sure how opinionated it was)

The dampers issue was raised by Ian Walmsley in September's Modern Railways and has been discussed at least once elsewhere on here.

The fact the Meridian seats use a flat cloth may have something to do with their current condition - moquette (furry cloth) as used on the HSTs tends to wear better. Or at least look better when worn, until the fibres start falling out.

 

[NoOnesFool]

If that I measurably the case then at least I can understand why it has been done although I still think it was a bad move. As far as I'm concerned I almost always spent money at the buffet in the past although I don't think I have ever bought anything from the trolley - even if it turns up which certainly isn't aways the case. Evenings in particular I would typically buy one - maybe two - cans of beer from the buffet, and maybe pick up some crisps or a sandwich while I was there. They beers were always well chilled. Now the trolley offers grossly overpriced items and they are not even cold. And I won't pay silly money for such products when the reality is I can buy at least twice as much from the cooled shelves from M&S at St. P and it'll stay chilled for long enough on the journey. Had the policy not changed, I would still be buying on the train. The other problem is I've been on more than enough trains recently when it's been announced that there are too many people standing for the trolley to make its way along the train - well if it's too busy for the trolley to move I'm certainly not fighting my way through to find it, whereas when there was a buffet I'd often chose a seat nearby to it to ensure I could get access...

To reply to some of your points:- On London services, chilled drinks are now usually available, as they are stowed in the onboard fridges, and they can be very nicely chilled too, especially the cans.

When the train is too full for the trolley to move through, the RG host can use something called a hawker tray, which is body worn and allows the host to make their way through the train and sell selected items. There is also the option of opening the buffet service (with the TM's permission).

 

[NoOnesFool]

The dampers issue was raised by Ian Walmsley in September's Modern Railways and has been discussed at least once elsewhere on here.

The fact the Meridian seats use a flat cloth may have something to do with their current condition - moquette (furry cloth) as used on the HSTs tends to wear better. Or at least look better when worn, until the fibres start falling out.

The Meridian STD seats look good and create a nice ambience, it feels more executive than a regular moquette. The trains are, of course, cleaned regularly but, certainly headrests etc can build up dirt. I'm sure the maintenance team will pick up on the issue. It's only around the edges that it's noticeable anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

The Meridian STD seats look good and create a nice ambience, it feels more executive than a regular moquette. The trains are, of course, cleaned regularly but, certainly headrests etc can build up dirt. I'm sure the maintenance team will pick up on the issue. It's only around the edges that it's noticeable anyway.

The 222s are well overdue a refresh and look very rough around the edges. Front of seat bases I've seen quite a few worn through entirely and cosmetic issues like missing covers for the bins in the toilets leaving an absolutely filthy disgusting looking bin inside on display are about standard. Defective PA has always been a problem on these units as well. It's that kind of thing that looks very bad at a first glance.

 

[Class 170101]

Sheffield isn't my favourite station, but I'm not sure I can blame EMT for the problems it has.

I rather like Sheffield !

I don't mind Sheffield and as far as issues are concerned frankly I think they are insignificant compared to a certain large station (hole???) in the West Midlands.

 

[yorksrob]

Apart from a slightly over-busy footbridge, what are the 'issues' with Sheffield ?

 

[Killingworth]

Apart from a slightly over-busy footbridge, what are the 'issues' with Sheffield ?

The entry and exit arrangements by car or taxi don't give visitors a good impression.

That footbridge is more than slightly over-busy, passengers with heavy luggage contending with bikes, skate boards, and scooters of those using the bridge as a right of way across the station. (It isn't, legally, but has been accepted by all sides that any restrictions can't be enforced without causing civil disobedience.)

That means it's open access until HS2 rebuilding and far too many take advantage by not paying for travel - on Northern services in particular. The open access aspect pre-dates East Midlands.

 

[yorksrob]

The entry and exit arrangements by car or taxi don't give visitors a good impression.

That footbridge is more than slightly over-busy, passengers with heavy luggage contending with bikes, skate boards, and scooters of those using the bridge as a right of way across the station. (It isn't, legally, but has been accepted by all sides that any restrictions can't be enforced without causing civil disobedience.)

That means it's open access until HS2 rebuilding and far too many take advantage by not paying for travel - on Northern services in particular. The open access aspect pre-dates East Midlands.

Ah yes.

It does seem to be a pleasant enough place to wait for a train though.

 

[Iskra]

Apart from a slightly over-busy footbridge, what are the 'issues' with Sheffield ?

It's definitely got an entrenched problem with beggars, almost every time I go I get accosted, this is the only station where I have repeated issues. Whether its 0700 or 2300, I get asked for money. I wouldn't mind but the last one became abusive when I declined, this was on the taxi rank late at night when there was barely anybody around- I'm not easily perturbed but I can see that some passengers may be put off by this. It's certainly not a great advert for Sheffield in this regard.

The footbridge.

The directional passenger flow system is an absolute mess and everyone ignores it, which causes chaos at busy times.

It's a very cold windswept place in winter and lacks enough indoor waiting areas.

The way the departure screens are positioned on the main concourse encourages people to clog up the area through which passengers need to walk to leave the station after coming off the stairs.

It's not the worst station, but it feels like a chore to use compared to other similar size stations.

 

[yorksrob]

It's definitely got an entrenched problem with beggars, almost every time I go I get accosted, this is the only station where I have repeated issues. Whether its 0700 or 2300, I get asked for money. I wouldn't mind but the last one became abusive when I declined, this was on the taxi rank late at night when there was barely anybody around- I'm not easily perturbed but I can see that some passengers may be put off by this. It's certainly not a great advert for Sheffield in this regard.

The footbridge.

The directional passenger flow system is an absolute mess and everyone ignores it, which causes chaos at busy times.

It's a very cold windswept place in winter and lacks enough indoor waiting areas.

The way the departure screens are positioned on the main concourse encourages people to clog up the area through which passengers need to walk to leave the station after coming off the stairs.

It's not the worst station, but it feels like a chore to use compared to other similar size stations.

I must admit, I've never been approached by beggars there (perhaps I look too stingy) but I suppose it could be an issue in a big City (I've seen it often enough in Leeds).

On the plus side, there are plenty of shops, plenty of platform cover, a good bar and all of the platform groupings have a toilet.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sheffield got a huge pot of money spent on it (nothing to do with the MP's guide dog falling twixt train and platform back in the day) , I find it a remarkably pleasant station - along with the regeneration on the town side as opposed to the "flats" side. Surprised that the bay platforms north end were not gated (yes - we know the issues about the main bridge barriers etc) ,as there must be some leakage of fares though there.

 

[Stevec101]

Midland Mainline was a quality operator with an entrepreneurial feel to it. Yes, they took on Turbostars to begin with but these were binned off as soon as the passenger numbers were there to step it up.

Other than a pack of crappy biscuits and a tiny bottle of room temperature water, passengers in First now get the same level of catering as Standard passengers got under MML.

That said, looking at the bidders (and the state of the rail industry in 2018) I very much doubt any will do anything to really improve the customer experience. I dislike Stagecoach though so would still rather see a change.

Agree entirely

 

[Chester1]

The entry and exit arrangements by car or taxi don't give visitors a good impression.

That footbridge is more than slightly over-busy, passengers with heavy luggage contending with bikes, skate boards, and scooters of those using the bridge as a right of way across the station. (It isn't, legally, but has been accepted by all sides that any restrictions can't be enforced without causing civil disobedience.)

That means it's open access until HS2 rebuilding and far too many take advantage by not paying for travel - on Northern services in particular. The open access aspect pre-dates East Midlands.

What is wrong with the Stockport solution of installing barriers but giving people blank tickets to hand in at the other end?

 

[Killingworth]

What is wrong with the Stockport solution of installing barriers but giving people blank tickets to hand in at the other end?

The lay-out would mean anyone handing out or collecting tickets would be trampled in the crush! We might get a football stadium situation, it really is that restricted at peak times coming off and onto the bridge. It's generally accepted by all parties that a wider bridge is needed for rail passengers AND a separate bridge for non-rail users. Attempts were made to impose controls a few years ago but civil disobedience and picketing soon put paid to that!

 

[Senex]

It's definitely got an entrenched problem with beggars, almost every time I go I get accosted, this is the only station where I have repeated issues. Whether its 0700 or 2300, I get asked for money. I wouldn't mind but the last one became abusive when I declined, this was on the taxi rank late at night when there was barely anybody around- I'm not easily perturbed but I can see that some passengers may be put off by this. It's certainly not a great advert for Sheffield in this regard.

The footbridge.

The directional passenger flow system is an absolute mess and everyone ignores it, which causes chaos at busy times.

It's a very cold windswept place in winter and lacks enough indoor waiting areas.

The way the departure screens are positioned on the main concourse encourages people to clog up the area through which passengers need to walk to leave the station after coming off the stairs.

It's not the worst station, but it feels like a chore to use compared to other similar size stations.

And add to all that the noise of idling diesel engines which too often makes it impossible to hear announcements.

 

[Scotty]

The lay-out would mean anyone handing out or collecting tickets would be trampled in the crush! We might get a football stadium situation

Is that not a bit insensitive, especially talking about a train station in Sheffield, of all places...

 

[Killingworth]

Please let's avoid digression, that's nothing to do with the East Midlands franchise. The obvious need for a wider footbridge and more reliable lifts at Sheffield is avoided in the franchising documentation. Resolution is being left for HS2 and/or MML electrification.

The problems with Sheffield station are many. Double tracks funnelling services from the south and west at one end, and north and east at the other materially restrict the services of all operators. When all are on time it works and there's space. It's obviously not as bad as Manchester and locations around London, but when busy trains get backed up at both ends coming in, often in the wrong order, they can end up further delayed as they go back out at the other.

When trains from north and south arrive at the same time, closely followed by others from east and west, the bridge across the station gets rammed. Those wanting to exit the station or change platforms with heavy luggage meet local residents pushing bikes and prams. Others dashing in the opposite direction to catch an outgoing train may be swelled by those having to follow a train which has been diverted to a changed platform as a result of knock-on delays.

The bridge across Derby station is newer, much wider and seems to carry lower loads - and is gated.Lessons learned from Sheffield?

At such times car congestion for the drop-off zone and taxis is another issue. There's free parking for 30 minutes in the Q park, but too many clog up the drop off area for 15-20 minutes. Solid taxis (but almost no taxis at certain times of the year) restrict long or short stay arrivals to the Q park and those wanting to do a quick drop-off and go.

Electrification was seen as the opportunity to sort out the bridge. Now it's HS2. The new East Midlands operator will have a lot of headaches whether HS2 is finally built, or not.

 

[Aictos]

If any station needs attention then it's Leicester as the 4 platforms aren't enough for the level of services using the station, not sure if a 5th platform can be built at all?

 

[edwin_m]

If any station needs attention then it's Leicester as the 4 platforms aren't enough for the level of services using the station, not sure if a 5th platform can be built at all?

There's a plan to build one or possibly two more as part of freight capacity increases, which would also provide four tracks through the Leicester area and grade separation at Wigston. As with everything else it's anyones guess when if ever it will happen. The platforms would be very suitable for Birmingham/Stansted trains as they could be accessed via the grade separation without touching the main line.

 

[tbtc]

If you've got shares in stagecoach then obviously you'll love them. They're great at returing a profit. They got lucky with the hull train cast off.

All other new trains have been the cheapest cast offs money can buy old redundant HSTs nobody else wants. 156s nobody wanted.

They've got no plan for what's happening with the HST fleet when all the doors are supposed to be automatic lol

The extra paths to anywhere are DFT ideas and requirements. They've seriously cut back on the performance available to 222s to save money.

They cut hundreds of jobs onboard and now having to recruit to return numbers back to previous levels.

Had no intention of keeping the buffer cars when they took over but found it wasn't possible to actually remove them without serious cost.

So Mr souter please move onto your next point

I don't own any Stagecoach shares - I don't own any shares - I'm just a passenger who pays for his own tickets and appreciates that Stagecoach increasing the fleet size with 156s/222s/HSTs is more than just "luck" (and that the DfT should receive credit for everything).

Also, as a regular Northern passenger, I'd dispute the idea that "nobody wanted" the Northern 156s (which were replaced by FGW Pacers)... I think that Northern would have preferred to keep the 156s to the cascaded 142s.

Stagecoach have no plan for the long term HST fleet? Well, the franchise was meant to end in March 2015, so it was never intended to be Stagecoach's problem to solve - the franchise has been kicked down the road a few times with short term extensions but has never been intended to last into the 2020s (i.e. after the accessibility deadline). Were Stagecoach meant to be psychic and know in 2007 that the franchise would be extended several times, and spend their own money on solving something on trains that they don't actually own?

I suppose as least we've moved on (in the argument) from "Stagecoach have done nothing good" if we are at least at the stage of "Stagecoach have got lucky with 156s landing in their lap". Progress...

Some of us remember the glory days when MML was among the best long distance TOCs in the country - in the early days under National Express

Midland Mainline did well, but they started from a low base (given how poor the MML was under BR, a forty five minute frequency from London to Leicester, irregular stops at intermediate stations, keeping Class 45s until the mid '80s etc).

It was easy for National Express to come along and make things look better, considering what they started off with.

As to fares, it is a sad inditement on the current franchise holder that non time sensitive long distance travellers from the Derby area can get to London much cheaper via Tamworth while those from Leicester can connect at Nuneaton and make significant savings - admittedly those in Nottingham / Sheffield don't have such straight forward choices.

I think a lot of that has to do with London Midland offering dirt cheap fares to compete with Virgin services on the WCML. If you want to take a risk on getting a 350/2 instead of a 125mph train on the MML then good luck to you.

Is it a sad indictment that non-time sensitive long distance travellers from the Stoke/ Crewe/ Birmingham area can get to London much cheaper on a 350 (than a 390)?

As for freebies, what's the point of having rationed out freebies if they're just going to be added to the ticket price ? I'd rather get on the train first, then decide if I want to buy any extras.

it would be nice if the new operator could offer crisps as a freeby

Freebies are bad (unless they are potato-based freebies).

The first class is tailored to the effectively mostly short to middle distance journeys that are undertaken. There's no point pretending that London - Leicester - Notitngham - Derby - Sheffield is London to Scotland or Cornwall.

The freebies are juice, tea, coffee, water, biscuits and snacks and wine on some evening journeys out of London. To cater for the full fat business custom in the peak what is probably the best cooked breakfast on the network is provided on advertised trains and they also extended it to all passengers on the Saturday breakfast trains.

The main food model is more of a European one. You can't justify throwing full meals out but if you want one you can buy a good quality, full size dinner (no mini portions) and have it served on a plate with cutlery. That's no different to DB or SNCF's on board offering in first.

I don't like the 'give out rubbish free stuff' thing in first. I rarely bother touching it.

Agreed - some people have a very binary view which means they expect EMT to offer the same kind of facilities from London to the East Midlands that you can expect on London to Cornwall/ Aberdeenshire, just because they were all called "InterCity" in BR days.

The current EMT offering is probably appropriate to the market they work in. I'd love to have free champagne and prawn sandwiches on board but, realistically, the market for people wanting a full meal on board for journeys only around ninety minutes long (e.g. London to Nottingham) isn't going to be significant.

 

[Stevec101]

Talking mostly bollocks to

I don't own any Stagecoach shares - I don't own any shares - I'm just a passenger who pays for his own tickets and appreciates that Stagecoach increasing the fleet size with 156s/222s/HSTs is more than just "luck" (and that the DfT should receive credit for everything).

Also, as a regular Northern passenger, I'd dispute the idea that "nobody wanted" the Northern 156s (which were replaced by FGW Pacers)... I think that Northern would have preferred to keep the 156s to the cascaded 142s.

Stagecoach have no plan for the long term HST fleet? Well, the franchise was meant to end in March 2015, so it was never intended to be Stagecoach's problem to solve - the franchise has been kicked down the road a few times with short term extensions but has never been intended to last into the 2020s (i.e. after the accessibility deadline). Were Stagecoach meant to be psychic and know in 2007 that the franchise would be extended several times, and spend their own money on solving something on trains that they don't actually own?

I suppose as least we've moved on (in the argument) from "Stagecoach have done nothing good" if we are at least at the stage of "Stagecoach have got lucky with 156s landing in their lap". Progress...



Midland Mainline did well, but they started from a low base (given how poor the MML was under BR, a forty five minute frequency from London to Leicester, irregular stops at intermediate stations, keeping Class 45s until the mid '80s etc).

It was easy for National Express to come along and make things look better, considering what they started off with.



I think a lot of that has to do with London Midland offering dirt cheap fares to compete with Virgin services on the WCML. If you want to take a risk on getting a 350/2 instead of a 125mph train on the MML then good luck to you.

Is it a sad indictment that non-time sensitive long distance travellers from the Stoke/ Crewe/ Birmingham area can get to London much cheaper on a 350 (than a 390)?





Freebies are bad (unless they are potato-based freebies).



Agreed - some people have a very binary view which means they expect EMT to offer the same kind of facilities from London to the East Midlands that you can expect on London to Cornwall/ Aberdeenshire, just because they were all called "InterCity" in BR days.

The current EMT offering is probably appropriate to the market they work in. I'd love to have free champagne and prawn sandwiches on board but, realistically, the market for people wanting a full meal on board for journeys only around ninety minutes long (e.g. London to Nottingham) isn't going to be significant.

Talking mostly bollocks to be honest.

Stagecoach didn't have to accept to extension and some sort of planning for the HST fleet is their responsibility the minute they agreed to carry on running it.
This is the entire problem with the franchise system. It's not our fault it's the DFT it's not our fault it's the franchisee. All the time these pricks are falling out with each other the staff and passengers are suffering.

 

[LowLevel]

Talking mostly bollocks to


Talking mostly bollocks to be honest.

Stagecoach didn't have to accept to extension and some sort of planning for the HST fleet is their responsibility the minute they agreed to carry on running it.
This is the entire problem with the franchise system. It's not our fault it's the DFT it's not our fault it's the franchisee. All the time these pricks are falling out with each other the staff and passengers are suffering.

Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean work isn't being undertaken behind the scenes (it has been for a while now).

 

[Class 170101]

If any station needs attention then it's Leicester as the 4 platforms aren't enough for the level of services using the station, not sure if a 5th platform can be built at all?

I'm not convinced myself. When I have been at Leicester Platform one seems to get little use (Up Loop Platform) with the Down Loop Platform being the most occupied by Cross Country terminators. Platforms 2 and 3 see most of the through traffic. I would have thought if you extend the Cross Country terminator to Cambridge (It wouldn't get through to Stansted) or Norwich or combine it with the Leicester to Lincoln service (least preferred option) that would reduce the pressure on Leicester's platforms.

 

[londonmidland]

I'm not convinced myself. When I have been at Leicester Platform one seems to get little use (Up Loop Platform) with the Down Loop Platform being the most occupied by Cross Country terminators. Platforms 2 and 3 see most of the through traffic. I would have thought if you extend the Cross Country terminator to Cambridge (It wouldn't get through to Stansted) or Norwich or combine it with the Leicester to Lincoln service (least preferred option) that would reduce the pressure on Leicester's platforms.

That is slightly incorrect.

Platform one gets used by the XC stopper to and from Birmingham New Street which is 1tph. It arrives from New Street at approximately XX:50 and goes back out at XX:18, so it occupies the platform for roughly 25 minutes. It also gets used by the Derby/Sheffield EMT stopper which departs at XX:35.

Platform 2 gets used by the XC Cambridge/Stansted, EMT fast Sheffield, fast Nottingham and semi-fast Nottingham.

Platform 3 gets used by most/all London services and the express XC Birmingham.

Platform 4 would be the least used platform, with only the Lincoln stopper using it. Though sometimes if platform 3 is occupied a London or Birmingham would use it.

Freight can go through any platform or on the up/down goods loop.

In times of disruption, the lack of avalible platforms and capacity really starts to show.

 

[Aictos]

Can the goods loop be remodelled to provide a another platform/s be it single faced or a island layout?

 

[Kite159]

4 platforms at Leicester is plenty for the level of service it gets, most stations in times of disruption will eventually fill up.

 

[edwin_m]

Can the goods loop be remodelled to provide a another platform/s be it single faced or a island layout?

This is what is intended with the four-tracking. The miscellaneous tracks that go to the east of P4 will be re-modelled as two through tracks with platforms. I suspect the platforms won't be full length but should be long enough for any likely XC train, rather like at Peterborough.

4 platforms at Leicester is plenty for the level of service it gets, most stations in times of disruption will eventually fill up.

The extra platforms are probably more about keeping the XC services on the eastern pair of tracks in the eventual four-track layout. Six crossing moves per hour to access the exising platforms would cancel out most of the capacity benefit of the four-tracking.

 

[Senex]

This is what is intended with the four-tracking. The miscellaneous tracks that go to the east of P4 will be re-modelled as two through tracks with platforms. I suspect the platforms won't be full length but should be long enough for any likely XC train, rather like at Peterborough.

The extra platforms are probably more about keeping the XC services on the eastern pair of tracks in the eventual four-track layout. Six crossing moves per hour to access the exising platforms would cancel out most of the capacity benefit of the four-tracking.

The proposed flyover at Wigston, the re-quadding Wigston to Syston, and the additional island platform at Leicester will keep cross-country freight and XC passenger clear of the Midland main line—it's a very German solution a hundred years and more after the Germans would have done it.