Arriva Rail North DOO

[Starmill]

But that's a change of TOC rather than a change of anything at Southern itself.

Except it's not because the TOC hasn't changed :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except it's not because the TOC hasn't changed :roll:

Yes, edited my post. Change of brand, rather. Even if the Southern branded services had retained guards, the switch to operation under the Thameslink brand would still have resulted in DOO.

 

[Dr Hoo]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/661933/tsgb-2017-report-summaries.pdf has rail taking 2% of journeys, 8% by distance.

I have been at two recent presentations by a senior Transport for the North representative where the figure ‘oop here’ is only 2% of trips by rail. Querying this it turned out to be rounded up from 1.7%. London it certainly isn’t.

 

[Killingworth]

Is there a source for that 5% figure? It seems very low to me. I'm pretty sure the bulk of journeys are made by other means of transport, but surely not 95%?!

To stay on topic - I struggle to see why anyone finds the erosion of the role of PTS trained conductors in any way acceptable. Main line trains at least should always run with two members of operational staff on board at all times.

I've been struggling to find the statistic, but it's lower than 5% in Sheffield, at most about 3%. That level of importance is reflected in the latest draft of Sheffield's Transport Strategy. http://democracy.sheffield.gov.uk/documents/s31437/Transport%20Strategy%202.pdf

It may be lower still in Hull and Newcastle. Just because most on here are rail enthusiasts, be they workers or travellers, we mustn't delude ourselves. The vast majority in Northern-land only use trains once in a blue moon, if ever!

The level of government expenditure on rail is well out of proportion to the numbers being carried, and Northern-land is as bad as anywhere.

 

[CN75]

Well. The routes which were transferred from Southern to Thameslink have had their OBS taken away now. So in a way that was true. What are now the Thameslink services to East Grinstead would have had a guard 3 years ago. Then they had an OBS. Now they have nothing.

On the other hand, there is an On Board Supervisor on all Gatwick Express trains where there was nobody for years before, in addition to Southern rostering an OBS on all the trains that had one with guards. GTR claimed there would be more trains with staff on board throughout the dispute to derision, but that is what has occurred (in spite of the RMT).

 

[Starmill]

Yes, edited my post. Change of brand, rather. Even if the Southern branded services had retained guards, the switch to operation under the Thameslink brand would still have resulted in DOO.

Both Southern and Thameslink services to East Grinstead* are DOO though. There is no difference between them operationally.

The difference is that the Southern branded services are staffed while the Thameslink branded services aren't. This is a choice which has been made not to bother providing any staff onboard to help people.

Of course, it's said this won't happen with Northern, but this is still illustrative.

*fine there may need to be one or two conductor diagrams there in case a 171, which requires a conductor, needs to work there for some reason. But for our purposes this can be ignored.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Both Southern and Thameslink services to East Grinstead* are DOO though. There is no difference between them operationally.

The difference is that the Southern branded services are staffed while the Thameslink brandes services aren't. This is a choice which has been made not to bother providing any staff onboard to help people.

Yes, it's a global choice - Southern branded services have OBS diagrammed to all services, Thameslink branded services do not on any services.

 

[Starmill]

It may be lower still in Hull and Newcastle. Just because most on here are rail enthusiasts, be they workers or travellers, we mustn't delude ourselves. The vast majority in Northern-land only use trains once in a blue moon, if ever!

Most people generally never use the railway.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, it's a global choice - Southern branded services have OBS diagrammed to all services, Thameslink branded services do not on any services.

That's a recent change. Until this summer the Thameslink branded services to Horsham, Littlehampton and elsewhere did have an onboard supervisor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a recent change. Until this summer the Thameslink branded services to Horsham, Littlehampton and elsewhere did have an onboard supervisor.

Ah, OK, I thought Thameslink was "pure DOO" since it started. I stand corrected.

 

[LowLevel]

If 158's do, they should swap it with one of those.

It's academic really as we don't have the units to run 6 cars (the one that ran a few weeks ago was as a result of the previous service being cancelled freeing up a unit). 4 can be a struggle and anything from 153/156/158 can and will appear.

Of course you could take the long term view that as the DfT appear to be determined to remove EMT and their crews from the route anyway that we don't actually care about any reputational damage to the Manchester area operations but unfortunately I would suggest most of us actually have more integrity than that, and that's at all levels from staff to management, and find the current state of affairs rather distressing.

 

[yorkie]

Ah, OK, I thought Thameslink was "pure DOO" since it started. I stand corrected.

I have no idea what you mean by "pure DOO" but DOO means "Driver Only Operation".

It makes no reference to the presence, or otherwise, of staff on the train. It means what it says; nothing more and nothing less, and cannot really be considered to be "pure" or "impure".

DOO is no more or less "pure" if there are other staff on the train who are not part of the operation of the train!

(I've not been following this thread, but this was brought to my attention!)

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I have no idea what you mean by "pure DOO" but DOO means "Driver Only Operation".

It makes no reference to the presence, or otherwise, of staff on the train. It means what it says; nothing more and nothing less, and cannot really be considered to be "pure" or "impure".

DOO is no more or less "pure" if there are other staff on the train who are not part of the operation of the train!

(I've not been following this thread, but this was brought to my attention!)

"Pure DOO" is shorthand for DOO operations where there is no intention by the operator to have a second member of staff on the train except for occasional revenue checks. This applies to most DOO ops in the former NSE area but does not apply to Strathclyde ops. Given that during First's tenure of the ScotRail franchise there were regular incidents of trains being deliberately run without an onboard TE it is not surprising that there is scepticism about the claim that Northern will continue to provide the second member of staff on all services. The current franchise may specify this but who knows what a future franchise specification might look like.

 

[muz379]

It may be lower still in Hull and Newcastle. Just because most on here are rail enthusiasts, be they workers or travellers, we mustn't delude ourselves. The vast majority in Northern-land only use trains once in a blue moon, if ever!

Indeed , despite working on the railway myself I know plenty of people who rarely if ever take the train anywhere .For example I cannot remember the last time my parents went on a train , it may have been over a decade ago . Same with friends , I have one friend who uses a train at least 2 or 3 times a month to visit family . But the majority of family and friends never travel by train .

By far the highest level of rail commuting I have known was when I was at university , I had 2 friends who took the train everyday . At the time I knew very little about the railway but they always complained about delays and cancellations. The only reason they took the train was because of the prohibitive cost of car insurance for under 25's , and even then in final year one of them actually got a part time job and started driving most of the time .

It's academic really as we don't have the units to run 6 cars (the one that ran a few weeks ago was as a result of the previous service being cancelled freeing up a unit). 4 can be a struggle and anything from 153/156/158 can and will appear.

Of course you could take the long term view that as the DfT appear to be determined to remove EMT and their crews from the route anyway that we don't actually care about any reputational damage to the Manchester area operations but unfortunately I would suggest most of us actually have more integrity than that, and that's at all levels from staff to management, and find the current state of affairs rather distressing.

To be fair the initial suggestion that was Northern could lend a unit , northern operate both 158's and 156's and with it being a strike day they would have a spare unit . But again this is academic because there is no benefit to Northern in doing this but there is financial risk should they be unable for some reason to provide the unit so under the fragmented business oritented railway system we have it wont happen . It also gets a Northern unit out of place presumably the day before and after the strike day

As well as the risk of reputational damage there is also a risk to EMT train-crew particularly the guard in a situation like that which is something I am sure your management are keen to mitigate against .

 

[yorksrob]

They don't.

Well, there's not really much answer ti that.

Of course, in a more sensible time, one would simply be told to get in the front four carriages, and if there wasn't a platform it was up to the passenger not to try and get out, but "progress" dictates that such arrangements are no longer good enough and everyone travelling from Greater Manchester to Lancashire has to squeeze on to four carriages.

 

[CN75]

That's a recent change. Until this summer the Thameslink branded services to Horsham, Littlehampton and elsewhere did have an onboard supervisor.

None of the guards from Southern who were in the dispute or subsequent new On Board Supervisors were ever put onto any Thameslink trains. There was a Thameslink member of revenue protection staff put on board each of the ‘new’ Thameslink trains on the section where that train ran off the Brighton main line only (ie in the case of the Horsham services, that’s a three stop, ten minute journey). This arrangement was implemented because GTR panicked about the illegality of impacting disabled access from unstaffed stations when they replaced a Southern service with a Thameslink service. Subsequently, Thameslink withdrew their revenue staff and alternative arrangements with a ‘man and a van’ were trialled. The services which would be transferred to Thameslink were set out in stone by the original franchise published six years ago or so.

I have no idea what you mean by "pure DOO" but DOO means "Driver Only Operation".

It makes no reference to the presence, or otherwise, of staff on the train. It means what it says; nothing more and nothing less, and cannot really be considered to be "pure" or "impure".

DOO is no more or less "pure" if there are other staff on the train who are not part of the operation of the train!

(I've not been following this thread, but this was brought to my attention!)

Although the definition of DOO is simple, what do you do in arrangements where trains are cancelled because there is no On Board Supervisor who doesn’t get involved in the operation of the train?

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm not the first person to say this, perhaps I've said it already but we are now going round in circles. There isn't anything more to say until something happens, which frankly doesn't seem imminent.

 

[Moonshot]

I'm not the first person to say this, perhaps I've said it already but we are now going round in circles. There isn't anything more to say until something happens, which frankly doesn't seem imminent.

This is very true, but one thing I will point out is that there will be no strikes in November. This is so that guards can earn a full salary prior to xmas

 

[Robertj21a]

None of the guards from Southern who were in the dispute or subsequent new On Board Supervisors were ever put onto any Thameslink trains. There was a Thameslink member of revenue protection staff put on board each of the ‘new’ Thameslink trains on the section where that train ran off the Brighton main line only (ie in the case of the Horsham services, that’s a three stop, ten minute journey). This arrangement was implemented because GTR panicked about the illegality of impacting disabled access from unstaffed stations when they replaced a Southern service with a Thameslink service. Subsequently, Thameslink withdrew their revenue staff and alternative arrangements with a ‘man and a van’ were trialled. The services which would be transferred to Thameslink were set out in stone by the original franchise published six years ago or so.



Although the definition of DOO is simple, what do you do in arrangements where trains are cancelled because there is no On Board Supervisor who doesn’t get involved in the operation of the train?

I get confused (increasingly easy to do !) by all these terms. I've always accepted that DOO means that just the driver carries out all of the operations and there may well be no other train staff at all on board. Fairly clear cut.
I assume that people are using DCO quite frequently in an attempt to define where the driver carries out all the operations (as per DOO) but there IS another member of train staff on board (OBS in the case of Southern).
Fair assumption ?

 

[LowLevel]

Well, there's not really much answer ti that.

Of course, in a more sensible time, one would simply be told to get in the front four carriages, and if there wasn't a platform it was up to the passenger not to try and get out, but "progress" dictates that such arrangements are no longer good enough and everyone travelling from Greater Manchester to Lancashire has to squeeze on to four carriages.

People wear earphones and don't listen (my ticket checks take twice as long as a result) and there's a concern with power doors that if the button lights up it's safe to stroll out glued to one's phone. There's several stops on the CLC alone (Irlam on the down and maybe Warrington on the up) where such a mistake would quite literally cause you to fall off a bridge (and that has most definitely been known to have caused deaths in the past).

 

[LowLevel]

I get confused (increasingly easy to do !) by all these terms. I've always accepted that DOO means that just the driver carries out all of the operations and there may well be no other train staff at all on board. Fairly clear cut.
I assume that people are using DCO quite frequently in an attempt to define where the driver carries out all the operations (as per DOO) but there IS another member of train staff on board (OBS in the case of Southern).
Fair assumption ?

DOO - driver only operation (passenger) or (non-passenger) was always a rulebook term that meant the driver was responsibility for all on board operational duties and you may have an additional member of staff (for example a Scottish ticket examiner or a passenger host on the Ely to Kings Lynn line) or equally may not.

DCO - driver controlled operation - has only started to be thrown about over the last few years in an attempt to make it clear that the driver may not be the only person on board. The train is still operated as a DOO-P service.

The in between service is South Eastern high speed where the train is not permitted to operate without an on board manager despite the driver conducting the operational duties. I would personally rather they called this method of operation DCO rather than muddying the waters by calling effectively DOO-P services DCO when the member of staff is determined as 'jolly lovely to have' but the train operator is adamant they want to be able to not have one on board regardless.

 

[yorksrob]

People wear earphones and don't listen (my ticket checks take twice as long as a result) and there's a concern with power doors that if the button lights up it's safe to stroll out glued to one's phone. There's several stops on the CLC alone (Irlam on the down and maybe Warrington on the up) where such a mistake would quite literally cause you to fall off a bridge (and that has most definitely been known to have caused deaths in the past).

It's surprising that there isn't some sort of a fence along the parapet at those locations. I'm sure there is along the viaduct approaching Wakefield Westgate.

 

[scrapy]

Well, there's not really much answer ti that.

Of course, in a more sensible time, one would simply be told to get in the front four carriages, and if there wasn't a platform it was up to the passenger not to try and get out, but "progress" dictates that such arrangements are no longer good enough and everyone travelling from Greater Manchester to Lancashire has to squeeze on to four carriages.

With good reason. People with sensory impairments have walked off viaducts in the past when a train has stopped short.

 

[Robertj21a]

DOO - driver only operation (passenger) or (non-passenger) was always a rulebook term that meant the driver was responsibility for all on board operational duties and you may have an additional member of staff (for example a Scottish ticket examiner or a passenger host on the Ely to Kings Lynn line) or equally may not.

DCO - driver controlled operation - has only started to be thrown about over the last few years in an attempt to make it clear that the driver may not be the only person on board. The train is still operated as a DOO-P service.

The in between service is South Eastern high speed where the train is not permitted to operate without an on board manager despite the driver conducting the operational duties. I would personally rather they called this method of operation DCO rather than muddying the waters by calling effectively DOO-P services DCO when the member of staff is determined as 'jolly lovely to have' but the train operator is adamant they want to be able to not have one on board regardless.

Thank you. Very clear.

I understand why DCO has come in to general use as it's 'convenient' for us non-railway bods to understand !!!

 

[Killingworth]

This is very true, but one thing I will point out is that there will be no strikes in November. This is so that guards can earn a full salary prior to xmas

What about October 27th then?

 

[Kite159]

This is very true, but one thing I will point out is that there will be no strikes in November. This is so that guards can earn a full salary prior to xmas

Until the RMT decides to carry on their striking into November up to Christmas when Northern continues to refuse to accept all the demands being made

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about October 27th then?

Last time I checked October 27th was not in November

 

[Killingworth]

Last time I checked October 27th was not in November

Quite, the last announced strike was for 20th. I'm trying to arrange a Peak District walk to encourage the use of rail services into the Peak Park and it's planned for 27th, the last Saturday before the clocks go back. Intention is to mark the 125th anniversary of the opening of the Hope Valley line in November 1893, 125 years ago. That said it was only opened for freight in 1893, passenger services not until May/June 1894, so the main celebratory events will be next year.

That's assuming the various parties concerned at Northern and RMT can run some passenger trains at weekends by then. Sometimes I don't know why we bother trying to promote our line.

 

[Iskra]

Until the RMT decides to carry on their striking into November up to Christmas when Northern continues to refuse to accept all the demands being made

This is when things will get interesting. Peak time for Xmas market goers and shoppers could really start turning public opinion against the RMT.

Even more so if it continues in December.

 

[Kite159]

This is when things will get interesting. Peak time for Xmas market goers and shoppers could really start turning public opinion against the RMT.

Even more so if it continues in December.

The RMT doesn't call about public opinion, why would they start now?