Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

Why don’t Arriva just leave the current arrangements in place for guards.

But, only recruit Onboard Supervisors going forward. They could then just switch one route at a time to OBS operation as guards leave/retire without a load of drama.

Would the RMT allow that?

No, because they, in my view totally unreasonably, want to protect the long term future of the grade (including for people who don't even work for the railway yet), rather than simply acting to protect the present holders of it as in my view should be their remit.

 

[muz379]

While this is true a lot of the time, there is no advice for EMT or TPE services for strike days. They are advertised as booked, or subject to whatever that day's engineering work timetable is. There is no advice not to travel but on certain of these services it seems to be necessary. At the moment if I go onto National Rail Enquiries I can just book a ticket for an EMT service to Liverpool on each Northern strike day without even being warned that the train may be busy. Most of them even have a £9 Advance.

Having the police at the station to prevent people from boarding when they have booked an Advance for a particular train is breach of contract, so I can't imagine that going down well. The key is first and foremost to give the best advice (such as actually putting a message on NRE) and then to do everything possible in mitigation (such as withdrawing Advance tickets and offering alternative transport by road).

In which case if advance fares are still being sold for EMT services on strike days then anybody in possession of one should be able to board first then any additional space filled up with any other passengers holding valid tickets if there is remaining space .

Alternative transport at these stations on strike days should be provided by Northern but then I have heard multiple problems with alternative transport both as a result of engineering works and strike days .

Probably the best way to manage the passenger numbers on the EMT services on strike days if the services are to continue to serve Manchester would be to have remaining capacity reported on the train leaving Stockport . Have the train not stop at Piccadilly or set down only and instead only stop it at Oxford road utilizing P1 with a crowd control operation in place so only advanced ticket holders and then any number on top of this which will fill the train can be allowed onto the actual platform to await the train .

Using P1 will obviously exclude wheelchair access , so anybody who cannot access P1 holding an advance ticket will be need to be provided with alternative transport .

Ive not really looked at what information is being put out about services since strikes started taking place on saturdays . But to my mind it should be made clear that any services that are running are expected to be extremely busy etc . I seem to remember hearing this message being announced during the run up to earlier strikes .

I've seen 158/158/156 formations on the route, so this would help. As for Northern being exposed to the financial risk of not lending a unit, they should bear that risk or provide a proper train service.

Have all carriages been in use if so some method of long train short platform working would have been employed which to be fair could actually be done on a strike day with no risk of delaying other services .

They should bear the risk , but this is the business oriented fragmented railway

The new fleet is obviously testing however DCO operation using these units is presumably still some time away. Otherwise they would be simply imposing new contracts onto the staff like GTR Southern

Part of the problem is that unlike southern they are not going to be able to simultaneously begin operating DCO on all routes . Some routes wont be seeing new stock and whilst there are some rumours about that there are plans to install DCO equipment on some legacy stock this is obviously some time away . Starting the imposition of new contracts could turn messy and lead to shortages of guards on services that will still require a guard in the traditional capacity .

I firmly believe what they are going to need to make it logistically work is an agreement with the RMT that current guards in numerous depots will regain traditional guards competencies and operate some routes and traction in this way , but will also work in a secondary non traditional guards role on the new stock and then increasingly on legacy stock fitted with DCO equipment . However I cannot see the union agreeing to this .

I would imagine the next step will be in the pay talks to open negotiation with ASLEF on agreeing a deal and then they will decide how they are going to work it operationally, whether that be using Guards on DCO services to assist, or creating a new role as DCO coverage increases similar to the On Board Supervisor or On Board Manager roles currently in existence at other TOCs. However they will still have to decide which depots will carry out this work, and whether they will be solely working DCO or there will be a mixture of Conductors and those working DCO and how they will select which existing staff undertake what.

The pay talks are currently conducted collectively between the 4 non management grade unions and the company . Terms and conditions are not discussed as part of this .

The company could of course withdraw from the agreement that pay talks are discussed collectively for all non management grade staff and try and negotiate with each union separately . But this has not worked entirely well at other TOC's with morale issues and even strikes .

I would be surprised if this was the point when they decide how they are actually going to operate it . I would have hoped that as part of the process of bidding for the franchise they might have known how they inrended to operate it . Surely this would have been a fundamental part of the financing for the bid given it is a great operational change ?

Why don’t Arriva just leave the current arrangements in place for guards.

But, only recruit Onboard Supervisors going forward. They could then just switch one route at a time to OBS operation as guards leave/retire without a load of drama.

Would the RMT allow that?

Because of the numbers of guards involved and the presumed requirement that as the franchise goes on the level of trains running under control of the driver is set to increase they really need an agreement that current guards will gradually transfer to a new role . As I said above IMO the only way it could logistically be done is to get an agreement that current guards will continue working some routes and traction as guards in the traditional sense but then also work new traction over certain routes in a secondary on board role .

If the logistics did permit them to only recruit OBS's going forward then whilst the RMT might chose not to recognise that new grade at Northern they could not do anything to stop it happening . So as such in answer to the question about the RMT allowing it , they have no mechanism to not allow it .

 

[yorksrob]

In which case if advance fares are still being sold for EMT services on strike days then anybody in possession of one should be able to board first then any additional space filled up with any other passengers holding valid tickets if there is remaining space .

Alternative transport at these stations on strike days should be provided by Northern but then I have heard multiple problems with alternative transport both as a result of engineering works and strike days .

Probably the best way to manage the passenger numbers on the EMT services on strike days if the services are to continue to serve Manchester would be to have remaining capacity reported on the train leaving Stockport . Have the train not stop at Piccadilly or set down only and instead only stop it at Oxford road utilizing P1 with a crowd control operation in place so only advanced ticket holders and then any number on top of this which will fill the train can be allowed onto the actual platform to await the train .

Using P1 will obviously exclude wheelchair access , so anybody who cannot access P1 holding an advance ticket will be need to be provided with alternative transport .

Ive not really looked at what information is being put out about services since strikes started taking place on saturdays . But to my mind it should be made clear that any services that are running are expected to be extremely busy etc . I seem to remember hearing this message being announced during the run up to earlier strikes .



Have all carriages been in use if so some method of long train short platform working would have been employed which to be fair could actually be done on a strike day with no risk of delaying other services .

They should bear the risk , but this is the business oriented fragmented railway


Part of the problem is that unlike southern they are not going to be able to simultaneously begin operating DCO on all routes . Some routes wont be seeing new stock and whilst there are some rumours about that there are plans to install DCO equipment on some legacy stock this is obviously some time away . Starting the imposition of new contracts could turn messy and lead to shortages of guards on services that will still require a guard in the traditional capacity .

I firmly believe what they are going to need to make it logistically work is an agreement with the RMT that current guards in numerous depots will regain traditional guards competencies and operate some routes and traction in this way , but will also work in a secondary non traditional guards role on the new stock and then increasingly on legacy stock fitted with DCO equipment . However I cannot see the union agreeing to this .


The pay talks are currently conducted collectively between the 4 non management grade unions and the company . Terms and conditions are not discussed as part of this .

The company could of course withdraw from the agreement that pay talks are discussed collectively for all non management grade staff and try and negotiate with each union separately . But this has not worked entirely well at other TOC's with morale issues and even strikes .

I would be surprised if this was the point when they decide how they are actually going to operate it . I would have hoped that as part of the process of bidding for the franchise they might have known how they inrended to operate it . Surely this would have been a fundamental part of the financing for the bid given it is a great operational change ?




Because of the numbers of guards involved and the presumed requirement that as the franchise goes on the level of trains running under control of the driver is set to increase they really need an agreement that current guards will gradually transfer to a new role . As I said above IMO the only way it could logistically be done is to get an agreement that current guards will continue working some routes and traction as guards in the traditional sense but then also work new traction over certain routes in a secondary on board role .

If the logistics did permit them to only recruit OBS's going forward then whilst the RMT might chose not to recognise that new grade at Northern they could not do anything to stop it happening . So as such in answer to the question about the RMT allowing it , they have no mechanism to not allow it .

There was certainly no issue accommodating the 158/158/156 in the Manchester bound platform at Warrington. I can't imagine Liverpool S Parkway would have been any shorter.

 

[CN75]

Let's get started on specific routes, on units, on tasks that are proposed to change on each, when and if there are to be cash settlements for the crew concerned.

Unless Northern change path, the RMT’s strike mandate could run on forever as it was delivered under the old legislation.

Since no

I've heard this rumour too but I've no idea how close to the truth it is. It would certainly explain why Northern's strike mitigation is so terrible by comparison with Southern's. Very few bus replacements, bus replacements due to engineering work reduced, no ticket acceptance except what is free to them (Arriva buses) etc

The rumour Arriva haven’t or are not planning to ask for compensation from the DfT because it would prevent them walking away has already been disposed of (and reported by the RMT).

See: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rail-strike-companies-in-line-for-millions-of-pounds-bailout/

 

[Robertj21a]

Unless Northern change path, the RMT’s strike mandate could run on forever as it was delivered under the old legislation.

Since no


The rumour Arriva haven’t or are not planning to ask for compensation from the DfT because it would prevent them walking away has already been disposed of (and reported by the RMT).

See: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rail-strike-companies-in-line-for-millions-of-pounds-bailout/

Surely that merely says that the companies have *applied* (not been granted) ?

 

[CN75]

Once again you post on the basis that ASLEF's members at Northern are simply going to accept DOO subject to a pay deal. That remains a significant assumption until such time as Northern prompt a negotiation. Whether that wiil be done formally or by provocation is still unknown.

Whether ASLEF will take as many steps as possible to avoid getting into industrial action whilst keeping face with the driver community is also unknown. They are in a fragile position and have limited resources, and can’t risk self-destruction when only Northern drivers will be affected.

 

[yorksrob]

Unless Northern change path, the RMT’s strike mandate could run on forever as it was delivered under the old legislation.

Since no


The rumour Arriva haven’t or are not planning to ask for compensation from the DfT because it would prevent them walking away has already been disposed of (and reported by the RMT).

See: http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rail-strike-companies-in-line-for-millions-of-pounds-bailout/

Its certainly a National scandal that the Government is effectively paying the TOC's to string out this dispute. Local MP's and politicians should be campaigning heavily on this issue. It's noticeable that this is also happenning in the Tory heartlands of SWR.

 

[CN75]

Why don’t Arriva just leave the current arrangements in place for guards.

But, only recruit Onboard Supervisors going forward. They could then just switch one route at a time to OBS operation as guards leave/retire without a load of drama.

Would the RMT allow that?

Here is a link to an On Board Supervisors vacancy being advertised at GTR. There were many pessimistic rumours about what would happen in terms of the changes to guards at GTR, but the reality hasn’t played out. This is an attractive salary and the job description seems perfectly coherent, and all imposed in spite of the RMT rather than with them involved.

 

[CN75]

Surely that merely says that the companies have *applied* (not been granted) ?

The rumour was that Arriva wouldn’t ask for any compensation because if they did then they wouldn’t be able to ‘walk away from’ the Northern franchise. It is all confidential to the DfT and Arriva but there is quite obviously no logic in Arriva suffering losses but not getting them repaid under their contractual mechanism. Compensating managers or anyone else involved for acting as train crew in industrial action, buses, even relief from cancellations caused by train crew doing high sickness levels or barbecue days will all be covered. It just took the RMT about two years to realise it and then tell everyone else they had realised in a press release.

 

[LowLevel]

There was certainly no issue accommodating the 158/158/156 in the Manchester bound platform at Warrington. I can't imagine Liverpool S Parkway would have been any shorter.

6 car 156/8 doesn't fit at Warrington, Widnes or South Parkway. When it was tried on a previous strike day it caused over 20 minutes delay at Warrington due to the number of people needing to move forward on a still busy train so it won't be happening again. TPE had a method of working involving manually isolating doors for their 6 car 185s that doesn't work for 15x.

We only have 20 minutes at Liverpool so don't have time to muck about giving access to advances like a nightclub bouncer with a guest list unfortunately. There's a crew break timed pretty much dead from arrival to departure so any delayed service will be delayed leaving and running for 250 miles is likely to cause havoc at several pinch points including Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough and Ely.

 

[CN75]

Its certainly a National scandal that the Government is effectively paying the TOC's to string out this dispute. Local MP's and politicians should be campaigning heavily on this issue. It's noticeable that this is also happenning in the Tory heartlands of SWR.

No train company would ever extend DOO without this insurance cover these days. The days of massive profits from franchises were confined to the early years of privatisation. Nowadays the overall level of profit is slim and a few days of industrial action wipes it out for the year. However, rather than just see train crew salaries spiral with no operational change happening, the DfT want to move the railway and operating practice into a more efficient and passenger friendly system. There is no option but to compensate the TOCs and take away any commercial risk from areas like this of the contracts.

 

[yorksrob]

6 car 156/8 doesn't fit at Warrington, Widnes or South Parkway. When it was tried on a previous strike day it caused over 20 minutes delay at Warrington due to the number of people needing to move forward on a still busy train so it won't be happening again. TPE had a method of working involving manually isolating doors for their 6 car 185s that doesn't work for 15x.

We only have 20 minutes at Liverpool so don't have time to muck about giving access to advances like a nightclub bouncer with a guest list unfortunately. There's a crew break timed pretty much dead from arrival to departure so any delayed service will be delayed leaving and running for 250 miles is likely to cause havoc at several pinch points including Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough and Ely.

Perhaps its the Liverpool bound platform, because it fitted in the Manchester bound one easily. Of course, its a bit pathetic that a main line has such short platforms to begin with, but this is rail in the North. It just illustrates that there needs to be a route and branch overhaul of capacity.

 

[yorksrob]

No train company would ever extend DOO without this insurance cover these days. The days of massive profits from franchises were confined to the early years of privatisation. Nowadays the overall level of profit is slim and a few days of industrial action wipes it out for the year. However, rather than just see train crew salaries spiral with no operational change happening, the DfT want to move the railway and operating practice into a more efficient and passenger friendly system. There is no option but to compensate the TOCs and take away any commercial risk from areas like this of the contracts.

Then there is little point in having these companies here in the first place if they can't bear the risk, even if it is the DfT that wants to move it to a cheaper operating system.

As far as I an concerned, the Government is using taxpayers money to directly prolong industrial action to the detriment of the travelling public.

Plus, if they're that worried about a more "passenger friendly" operating system, how come they haven't imposed it on Greater Anglia.

 

[evoluzione]

Worth pointing out that a number of guards at Leeds are actually working strike days now. If strikes carry on like they are doing, I daresay some more will join them

They’ve been doing it for over six months now, only one guard comes in on the West, but you’ll obviously know this already.

 

[furnessvale]

Leeds Utd have been given 7000 tickets at Blackburn away on strike day 20/10. No direct trains, but you can get there via the hourly Man Vic-Clitheroe service. What could possibly go wrong...

I have emailed Northern about this, but not sure if they are in a position to do anything.

Are these services normally 2 carriages?

On a normal day, around 6900 of those fans would be travelling by road anyway. I'm sure that the remaining 100 will find a way of doing the same, probably permanently.

When will people on this forum realise that 5% of passenger journeys in the UK are made by rail. Factor in the use of rail by London commuters and you quickly realise that use of rail outside the Metropolis is miniscule.

With the public increasingly peed off by the railways, perhaps the new government review may include a Serpell element. You can build an awful lot of new roads for £4bn a year.

 

[Iskra]

On a normal day, around 6900 of those fans would be travelling by road anyway. I'm sure that the remaining 100 will find a way of doing the same, probably permanently.

When will people on this forum realise that 5% of passenger journeys in the UK are made by rail. Factor in the use of rail by London commuters and you quickly realise that use of rail outside the Metropolis is miniscule.

With the public increasingly peed off by the railways, perhaps the new government review may include a Serpell element. You can build an awful lot of new roads for £4bn a year.

I’m aware that probably half probably go by road. I don’t think you are accounting for football fans relationship with alchohol.

In previous seasons Northern have put on 6-car football specials after Blackburn away to get us home and as a passenger I can tell you it was rammed and so was the station even after we left.

 

[Overspeed110]

Completely untrue, if you were correct they’d have long ago dismissed all the striking staff and offered to re employ those that were prepared to agree new terms .
Any hardening attitude of those that support further strikes will more likley come from correctly predicting at very least an impression of contrinued dithering and uncertainty from the industry/DFT on how to ultimately address this longstanding impasse and possibly a belief ASLEF might also join in at some point, rather than any admiration for their unions always highly dubious national campaign that appears now to be loosing public support in the north faster than ever

What's completely untrue?
I think you will find you're wrong, they can legally sack all staff who've taken strike action after the first 12 or 13 weeks of a legal dispute.
But that just isn't going to happen, is it.

ASLEF haven't been consulted at all, yet.

 

[Starmill]

Would the RMT allow that?

Presumably not given the conductors at Southern are still in disli

But to my mind it should be made clear that any services that are running are expected to be extremely busy etc . I seem to remember hearing this message being announced during the run up to earlier strikes .

This point is made about Northern services on NRE and on Northern's website. But if you do a search and the result is EMT, you don't even get a warning that a strike is taking place.

 

[Starmill]

Perhaps its the Liverpool bound platform, because it fitted in the Manchester bound one easily.

They don't fit. They might fit if the short 'extensions' were is use but they seem to have fallen out of favour.

 

[142Pilot]

They’ve been doing it for over six months now, only one guard comes in on the West, but you’ll obviously know this already.

Is it still only 1 on the west?

Good going if that's the case.

 

[northwichcat]

On a normal day, around 6900 of those fans would be travelling by road anyway. I'm sure that the remaining 100 will find a way of doing the same, probably permanently.

When will people on this forum realise that 5% of passenger journeys in the UK are made by rail. Factor in the use of rail by London commuters and you quickly realise that use of rail outside the Metropolis is miniscule.

With the public increasingly peed off by the railways, perhaps the new government review may include a Serpell element. You can build an awful lot of new roads for £4bn a year.

A couple of years back Barnsley got drawn against Altrincham in the FA cup. Despite Altrincham being a non-league side and 2 changes by train from Barnsley there were at least 300 Barnsley fans using Altrincham station that afternoon, I was surprised at the number. When I had got on a 4 car 150 at Knutsford I wasn't expecting it to leave Altrincham with lots of passengers standing. Given Altrincham's ground only holds 6,000 and much of the capacity is given to home fans, there's a huge proportion of Barnsley fans travelling by train.

 

[yorksrob]

They don't fit. They might fit if the short 'extensions' were is use but they seem to have fallen out of favour.

Or they could just say front four carriages only for Warrington.

Hopefully the Newton line will be up and running soon.

 

[snookertam]

On a normal day, around 6900 of those fans would be travelling by road anyway. I'm sure that the remaining 100 will find a way of doing the same, probably permanently.

When will people on this forum realise that 5% of passenger journeys in the UK are made by rail. Factor in the use of rail by London commuters and you quickly realise that use of rail outside the Metropolis is miniscule.

With the public increasingly peed off by the railways, perhaps the new government review may include a Serpell element. You can build an awful lot of new roads for £4bn a year.

Is there a source for that 5% figure? It seems very low to me. I'm pretty sure the bulk of journeys are made by other means of transport, but surely not 95%?!

To stay on topic - I struggle to see why anyone finds the erosion of the role of PTS trained conductors in any way acceptable. Main line trains at least should always run with two members of operational staff on board at all times.

 

[scrapy]

Or they could just say front four carriages only for Warrington.

Hopefully the Newton line will be up and running soon.

156s don't have selective door operation.

 

[yorksrob]

156s don't have selective door operation.

If 158's do, they should swap it with one of those.

 

[JamesT]

Is there a source for that 5% figure? It seems very low to me. I'm pretty sure the bulk of journeys are made by other means of transport, but surely not 95%?!

To stay on topic - I struggle to see why anyone finds the erosion of the role of PTS trained conductors in any way acceptable. Main line trains at least should always run with two members of operational staff on board at all times.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ta/file/661933/tsgb-2017-report-summaries.pdf has rail taking 2% of journeys, 8% by distance.

 

[Starmill]

If 158's do, they should swap it with one of those.

They don't.

 

[Robertj21a]

Here is a link to an On Board Supervisors vacancy being advertised at GTR. There were many pessimistic rumours about what would happen in terms of the changes to guards at GTR, but the reality hasn’t played out. This is an attractive salary and the job description seems perfectly coherent, and all imposed in spite of the RMT rather than with them involved.

That job description is rather good. Wouldn't it be just as suitable across many other TOCs ?

I think the key issue that arose when the Southern case was highly topical was that various people on the forum posted that there was no chance whatsoever that these jobs would ever become permanent - and that others were naive (or stupid) to believe what the company was saying.

 

[Starmill]

I think the key issue that arose when the Southern case was highly topical was that various people on the forum posted that there was no chance whatsoever that these jobs would ever become permanent - and that others were naive (or stupid) to believe what the company was saying.

Well. The routes which were transferred from Southern to Thameslink have had their OBS taken away now. So in a way that was true. What are now the Thameslink services to East Grinstead would have had a guard 3 years ago. Then they had an OBS. Now they have nothing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well. The routes which were transferred from Southern to Thameslink have had their OBS taken away now. So in a way that was true. What are now the Thameslink services to East Grinstead would have had a guard 3 years ago. Then they had an OBS. Now they have nothing.

But that's a change of "TOC" (yes, I know, sort-of) rather than a change of anything at "Southern" itself. Even if GTR's Southern branded services had kept proper guards, such a swap would have still resulted in a move to DOO when the "TOC" changed.