Remapping of Rail Franchises

[Typhoon]

I might be tempted to split HS1 off if it stopped them running around the Kent Coast with their St Pancras to St Pancras service. I feel it would be better if Class 395s terminated at Dover / Ramsgate rather than spend time running around the coast when a more suitable lower speed EMU could cover this section with Class 395s providing more services / capacity on HS1.

The problem with this is that a lot of political pressure went into getting the extension via Sandwich and Deal (and the peak hour journeys to Maidstone West). Secretaries of State may say they don't run the railways but I bet they interfere!

Southeastern should be split with the HS1 services in one company and the rest in another. This should rejuvenate the classic services with journey time improvements back to what they were before HS1 (or better) and bring down HS1 fares due to competition.

Sadly, it won't happen.

(My underlining)

I'm interested in what you think won't happen - the split or the reduction in fares!​

 

[tbtc]

It's quite simple then.

When there's more than one TOC in an area, they should be merged together (e.g. Northern and TPE)...

...but when there's one TOC in an area they should have their services split off (e.g. South Eastern's monopoly in the Kentish Countryside).

It's the usual muddle, where people want micro franchises to focus on specific areas (e.g. splitting GWR up so that the Sleepers are separate to the Devon/Cornish branch lines which are separate to the InterCity stuff) but also want a mega-sized operation like Network South East.

Essentially, whichever set-up there is in an area right now, people want the opposite!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's quite simple then.

When there's more than one TOC in an area, they should be merged together (e.g. Northern and TPE)...

...but when there's one TOC in an area they should have their services split off (e.g. South Eastern's monopoly in the Kentish Countryside).

It's the usual muddle, where people want micro franchises to focus on specific areas (e.g. splitting GWR up so that the Sleepers are separate to the Devon/Cornish branch lines which are separate to the InterCity stuff) but also want a mega-sized operation like Network South East.

Essentially, whichever set-up there is in an area right now, people want the opposite!

Splitting the GW sleeper will probably happen on the same day as the Caledonian experiment fails. We don’t want DfT micromanagement, but we want Grayling to be the fall guy for not micromanaging...

 

[delt1c]

Give us 3 "Franchises" ScotRail, EnglishRail, WelshRail. Run by the 3 respective goverments with proffits returned to the network and travelling public

 

[Class 170101]

The problem with this is that a lot of political pressure went into getting the extension via Sandwich and Deal (and the peak hour journeys to Maidstone West). Secretaries of State may say they don't run the railways but I bet they interfere!

I'm not worried about the peak time extras / extensions but off peak it seems a waste of resources to run around the coast. The current timetable seems worse than the previous off peak one with some stations having two trains per hour but virtually one behind the other such as to make it an hourly service in practise.

 

[philabos]

Give us 3 "Franchises" ScotRail, EnglishRail, WelshRail. Run by the 3 respective goverments with proffits returned to the network and travelling public

What profits?

 

[HH]

What is needed is for the government to realise that the benefits of rail go beyond those that actually use it (e.g. without rail there would be more cars on the road and does anyone want that in the rush hour?).

 

[The Ham]

What is needed is for the government to realise that the benefits of rail go beyond those that actually use it (e.g. without rail there would be more cars on the road and does anyone want that in the rush hour?).

Quite.

Also at present most people look at the £4 billion of subsidy the railways have without noticing that NR is making £3.5 billion of improvements and HS2 is costing £0.8 billion. As such the subsidy is only for improving the network and not running the trains.

 

[jopsuk]

Essentially, whichever set-up there is in an area right now, people want the opposite!

Everything is too centralised! Decentralise!

(later)

Everything is too decentralised! Centralise!

(repeat)

 

[tbtc]

Everything is too centralised! Decentralise!

(later)

Everything is too decentralised! Centralise!

(repeat)

That's it.

If Mr Grayling is reading this Forum, he'll learn that we should split Island Line into a separate franchise so that it can have local control/focus, but also that the entire SWR franchise should be swallowed up by a mega-one called Network South East...

...Northern is too big a franchise, unable to focus on any one area and biased in favour of the other side of the Pennines, but also should be merged with TransPennine...

...it was bad that Stagecoach had a monopoly on long distance services out of London yet we should have all InterCity services run by one company - and, of course, InterCity should have the black/silver/red colour scheme (even though it was only around for the final ten years or so of British Rail - and had many versions in that period - so that the Northern Rail blue/purple livery and the turquoise Wales & Border livery probably lasted longer) because Things Must Go Back To How They Were.

And the minute that EMT/EMR is split so that the East Midlands local services are tied to local services in the West Midlands (rather than tied to the InterCity services from the East Midlands to London), people will be suggesting that we put all East Midlands services into one franchise.

It's simple - why can't he follow our completely contradictory instructions?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I remember a couple of years ago a suggestion about a separate East West Rail Franchise but I cannot see this happening in fact I don’t know who would run the services all i know is that Chiltern would run MKC-London and that’s it!.

Southeastern should be split with the HS1 services in one company and the rest in another. This should rejuvenate the classic services with journey time improvements back to what they were before HS1 (or better) and bring down HS1 fares due to competition.

Sadly, it won't happen.

Personally I am not in favour of it I think it would be too complicated around the Kent Coast.

Futher Remapping could occur with the transfer of Ashford-Eastbourne to be transferred to Southeastern and make it easier for a London St Pancras-Eastbourne service (not to replace the stopping service). Any other small lines/services which could move franchises?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Remapping of franchises is off the agenda until the new Williams rail review has reported and decisions taken on the basis of it - ie at least 18 months away.
That will be more about the structure, funding and management of the industry than actually playing trains.
The direction of travel seems to be the corralling of "franchises" with Network Rail Routes, with joint public/private management and funding.
Cross-Route services don't fit such a pattern (eg XC, TPE, freight), and there will always be border disputes.
Devolution in a political sense is also prominent in the agenda, but is not easily handled by a railway that thinks/operates at a wider level.
Meanwhile, it looks like South Eastern, West Coast Partnership and East Midlands will be awarded in a strategic vacuum before the report emerges.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember a couple of years ago a suggestion about a separate East West Rail Franchise but I cannot see this happening in fact I don’t know who would run the services all i know is that Chiltern would run MKC-London and that’s it!.

You’re a little out of date. It was a DfT announcement that quite clearly proposed a separate mini franchise, (rather than an unofficial ‘suggestion’), and it also cast significant doubt over the expected through service into Marylebone. Without the leg south of Aylesbury it doesn’t need Chiltern involvement, so that’s no longer certain at all.

 

[JamesRowden]

I remember a couple of years ago a suggestion about a separate East West Rail Franchise but I cannot see this happening in fact I don’t know who would run the services all i know is that Chiltern would run MKC-London and that’s it!.

Reading the Route Studies it seemed to make sense for:

• Marylebone - Milton Keynes (Chiltern)
• (Paddington - Heathrow -) Reading - Oxford - Milton Keynes / Bedford (Great Western)
• Bletchley - Bedford (Stopper) (London Midland)
• Basingstoke - Oxford - Milton Keynes - Manchester (Cross Country)
• Bristol - Oxford - Bedford - Sheffield (Cross Country)
• Reading - Oxford - Bedford - Nottingham (Cross Country)

All these services were at least listed as long term possibilities and I have selected the operating franchise according to: the plans I heard about the initial planned service; which London terminal the service operates into; or which franchise has existing services best distributed for serving the extremities of the route.

Personally I am not in favour of it I think it would be too complicated around the Kent Coast.

I think that the Southeastern Mainline services between London Bridge and Ashford should be focused around serving journeys to/from West Kent and South East London (and journeys to/from Surrey changing at Tonbridge and Redhill) rather than competing with the HS1 services, and so should be part of the same franchise as the HS1 services.

Futher Remapping could occur with the transfer of Ashford-Eastbourne to be transferred to Southeastern and make it easier for a London St Pancras-Eastbourne service (not to replace the stopping service).

I think that a substantially cheaper way to achieve similar positive outputs is to just:

• Upgrade the line speed on the single track section between Ore and Rye so that an every 30 minute service can operate in each direction between Ashford and Hastings/Eastbourne/Brighton
• Raise the HS1 service frequency via Ashford to every 15 minutes.
• Run London - Tonbridge - Hastings services non-stop between London Bridge and Tonbridge with an additional 2tph between London and Ashford via Tonbridge (as is required in the new franchise).

No need for 140mph bimodes or substantial modifications to the junctions around Ashford station.

 

[The Ham]

Basingstoke - Oxford - Milton Keynes - Manchester (Cross Country)

Given that there's a shortage of paths for all the current XC services between Reading and Basingstoke I'm not sure that additional services would be possible.

 

[JamesRowden]

Given that there's a shortage of paths for all the current XC services between Reading and Basingstoke I'm not sure that additional services would be possible.

The shortage of paths is through Basingstoke and due to the flat junctions at Basingstoke, so it's a lack of Reading-Southampton paths (plus the limited number of Voyagers) which limits the service to 3tp2h, not the availability Reading-Basingstoke paths.

 

[swt_passenger]

The shortage of paths is through Basingstoke and due to the flat junctions at Basingstoke, so it's a lack of Reading-Southampton paths (plus the limited number of Voyagers) which limits the service to 3tp2h, not the availability Reading-Basingstoke paths.

Agree. The above probably also explains why the proposed extra service via EWR was described in the Western route study as terminating at Basingstoke.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Agree. The above probably also explains why the proposed extra service via EWR was described in the Western route study as terminating at Basingstoke.

Do you have any references to the study?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Cumberland & Lancashire Railway

And where's Cheshire & Mersyside? Just rename LNWR. Also calling it NWR would lead to many a meme when things inevitably go t*ts up. @NWR_Assist You have caused confusion & delay...

I'll get my coat.

It's actually not a half bad idea...

Let’s Scrap the Cumbrian Franchise and merge it with the proposed ‘North Western Franchise’.

Seconded. Lots of mini franchises would just lead to complete chaos.

My Time:
Northern - Split down the Pennines, Connect services to TPE.
GTR - Metro Southern services transfer to TfL. The rest can be kept as Southern. GN sent to the East Coast franchise & the seperate services branded as LNER Local/Connect/insert whatever here & Express. TL kept well away from TfL. Gat Ex can be thrown in the bin and replaced with a modern day Brighton Belle or something similar with more stops than the current Gat Ex service.
WCP - Merge with the London Midland franchise but only after HS2 opens.
HS2 - New franchise. Does what it says on the tin.
Wales - Transfer services that operate mostly or fully in England to their respective franchieses (ie: Crewe - Chester to North West).

Now how I would fully solve this issue is go back to 1992, dispose of Major (), forcefully take over the UK, install myself as dictator and then tell BR to do things properly or I would privatise them (and I would take with me documentation showing them the failure of the franchising system to scare them into following my orders. If that fails I could always try the Saddam method). Solved, no? (I've been watching The Clone Wars far too much)

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you have any references to the study?

They’re all on the Network Rail site here: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning/

 

[adrock1976]

I would suggest the following for franchise remapping, being as Scotrail has always existed since the days of British Rail:

Regional Railways North West - this would include the limited stop inter regional services, the present TPE Manchester Airport - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston, and local all stations services specified with input from Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive (PTE) and Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive.

Regional Railways North East - limited stop inter regional services and those operated by TPE via Leeds/Sheffield, the Liverpool - Norwich as far as Nottingham, Newcastle - Carlisle, and local all stations services specified with input from Tyne & Wear PTE, West Yorkshire PTE, and South Yorkshire PTE.

Regional Railways Central - limited stop inter regional services that are presently part of Crosscountry, Birmingham - Hereford via Bromsgrove, East Midlands local, and local all stations services in the West Midlands specified with input from West Midlands PTE.

Regional Railways Wales & West - limited stop inter regional services from Swansea or Cardiff to Manchester, Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - Birmingham, and the present GWR inter regional services. All local services within Wales to be specified by the local councils within each of the 8 preserved counties (if I am using the right terminology here, I refer to Gwynedd, Clwyd, Powys, Dyfed, West Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan, South Glamorgan, and Gwent), with the Senedd having a bit of input into the Intercity and cross border inter regional services. Somerset, Wiltshire, Devon, and Cornwall also have input at county (or national for Cornish nationalists) level, with further input from local councils.

Network SouthEast - the divisions based on the the three former railway companies south of the mighty Thames: London & South Western, London, Brighton, & South Coast, and South Eastern. Gatwick Express brand to be abolished, and replaced with London Victoria - Brighton calling Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Haywards Heath, and Brighton. Ashford (Kent) - Hastings to transferred back to Southeastern, as the Southeastern Railway built the line in the first place. Local services within and to the first junction station outwith the London Travelcard Zones to transfer to TfL.

C2C - Leave as is, with maybe the transfer of Romford - Upminster from TfL Rail.

Great Eastern - leave as is, with maybe the transfer of the Nottingham - Norwich section of the present Liverpool - Norwich service.

Great Western - Traditional Intercity services, plus the Thames Branches, Great Malvern - Bristol, Newbury/Bedwyn, Swindon - Westbury/other destinations via Melksham, and some Oxford terminators extended to Banbury.

Chiltern - leave as is, with Aylesbury Vale Parkway trains extended to Milton Keynes and Bedford, and possible incorporation of the Birmingham Snow Hill locals.

Great Northern - Moorgate services transfer to TfL, with Kings Cross - Kings Lynn transferring to East Coast.

Thameslink - no trains to touch the former North Kent Railway metals at all. Bedford - Brighton limited stop to revert to a 15 minute frequency, with a train every 30 minutes calling at Redhill. Also, get the present mess sorted.

Home Counties Connect - New franchise which would include London Euston - Birmingham via Northampton, St Pancras - Corby, Bletchley - Bedford local. These would be the services of the former Network SouthEast north of the mighty Thames that have not been mentioned elsewhere, and those which will not be part of London Crossrail or have TfL input.

Intercity East Coast - the present Kings Cross - Edinburgh Waverley trains running non-stop between Kings Cross and York to omit Darlington Bank Top, and extended every 2 hours alternating between Glasgow Central via Motherwell, and Aberdeen via Kirkcaldy. The Crosscountry to revert to terminating at Edinburgh. Also, would incorporate the Kings Cross - Kings Lynn services.

Intercity Midland - one train every 2 hours extended from Sheffield Midland to Leeds calling Meadowhall Interchange (for HS2), Barnsley Interchange, Wakefield Kirkgate, and Leeds. The opposite hour every 2 hours to be extended to York calling Meadowhall Interchange (for HS2), Rotherham Masborough (re-opened), Pontefract Baghill, and York.

Intercity West Coast - the London Euston - Glasgow Central via Trent Valley Railway to have the calls reinstated at Watford Junction, Rugby, Crewe, and Motherwell that were cut at the December 2008 timetable change. The section of the Birmingham New Street - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston to be incorporated and revert back to Crosscountry. Liverpool trains to alternate calls between Nuneaton and Tamworth.

Intercity Crosscountry - transfer the inter regional limited stop routes to Regional Railways Central. The Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston to be transferred back to Crosscountry. In partnership with South Yorkshire PTE, trains via Sheffield could call at a re-opened Rotherham Masborough. Basingstoke - Manchester/Nottingham/Sheffield via East West Rail to be operated by ICXC.

Knowing me, I have probably missed a few obvious ones, and have broadly (from memory) have based it on the regions and sectors of BR.

 

[GrimShady]

What is needed is for the government to realise that the benefits of rail go beyond those that actually use it (e.g. without rail there would be more cars on the road and does anyone want that in the rush hour?).

Agreed 100%

 

[Clip]

the Liverpool - Norwich as far as Nottingham

Why would this sit with the North East?

Network SouthEast - the divisions based on the the three former railway companies south of the mighty Thames: London & South Western, London, Brighton, & South Coast, and South Eastern. Gatwick Express brand to be abolished, and replaced with London Victoria - Brighton calling Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Haywards Heath, and Brighton. Ashford (Kent) - Hastings to transferred back to Southeastern, as the Southeastern Railway built the line in the first place. Local services within and to the first junction station outwith the London Travelcard Zones to transfer to TfL.

Nothing about HS1 and that goes north of the mighty Thames