Remapping of Rail Franchises

[Jorge Da Silva]

In the future, it is likely some franchises will be redesigned or split for example Govia Thameslink (Thameslink, Southern Great Northern Franchise). This will likely happen within the next decade. The franchises likely to get changes are:

• Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern: Likely to be Split into Thameslink Franchise, Southern Franchise. Great Northern out of Kings Cross would be merged with LNER and Moorgate services should go to London Overground as suggested by Grayling.
• West Midlands Franchise: Split into the West Midlands Franchise (Current WMR Brand name) and London North Western Franchise.
• Northern: It has been suggested by MPS whether it is time to split Northern up due to the delays caused by the new timetable

Is this a good idea? Any other franchises likely to change?

 

[Mag_seven]

Any other franchises likely to change?

There was a suggestion that the Great Western franchise be split, but it was ruled out in the end.

 

[Steve childs]

They already did this with the Caledonian sleeper in 2015. It put jobs at risk and the sleeper has deteriorated.

 

[Clansman]

They already did this with the Caledonian sleeper in 2015. It put jobs at risk and the sleeper has deteriorated.

Agreed.

Should keep the brand but reintegrate the franchise back into ScotRail.

After them daft and pointless electronic boards were installed at every station, and staffed lounges at principle ones all night, it's little wonder why folk (mainly staff) are just impatiently waiting for the whole thing to collapse spectacularly!

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I also remember the GW Franchise consultation mentioning the Greenford branch line being moved to Chiltern which sounds like a good idea to me?

 

[NoOnesFool]

I also remember the GW Franchise consultation mentioning the Greenford branch line being moved to Chiltern which sounds like a good idea to me?

Considering Chiltern don't run any services to Paddington and have no staff based there, having them run one route to/from there might cause issues from a staff rostering perspective and also a customer service one too, as there would not be any customer service representatives on hand at Paddington from Chiltern and short pocketed Arriva are unlikely to fork out for extra staff.

 

[Iskra]

In the future, it is likely some franchises will be redesigned or split for example Govia Thameslink (Thameslink, Southern Great Northern Franchise). This will likely happen within the next decade. The franchises likely to get changes are:

• Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern: Likely to be Split into Thameslink Franchise, Southern Franchise. Great Northern out of Kings Cross would be merged with LNER and Moorgate services should go to London Overground as suggested by Grayling.
• West Midlands Franchise: Split into the West Midlands Franchise (Current WMR Brand name) and London North Western Franchise.
• Northern: It has been suggested by MPS whether it is time to split Northern up due to the delays caused by the new timetable

Is this a good idea? Any other franchises likely to change?

I assume FNW and ATN merged for a reason?

 

[swt_passenger]

Considering Chiltern don't run any services to Paddington and have no staff based there, having them run one route to/from there might cause issues from a staff rostering perspective and also a customer service one too, as there would not be any customer service representatives on hand at Paddington from Chiltern and short pocketed Arriva are unlikely to fork out for extra staff.

The Greenford branch no longer runs into Paddington though, (as a Crossrail prerequisite), except for ECS delivery at start and end of service, and it’ll have to be all the way from Reading in future, with Old Oak out of use.

That’s the whole point of the DfTs proposal transferring it to Chiltern, as is explained in the source, the recent GW franchise consultation.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The Greenford branch no longer runs into Paddington though, (as a Crossrail prerequisite), except for ECS delivery at start and end of service, and it’ll have to be all the way from Reading in future, with Old Oak out of use.

That’s the whole point of the DfTs proposal transferring it to Chiltern, as is explained in the source, the recent GW franchise consultation.

My bad! I stand corrected - ignore my previous post.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I'd argue that once HS2 is up and running, WCML and LNWR section of WM, should form one large franchise, with some of the suburban services going to LO... I don't know what will happen with the branches in that idea though. I think it would be a bit like a Chiltern franchise... Commuter based, with some fast mainline operations.

I'd also bring the Scot Sleepers back into Scotrail, with brand independence.

Obviously some of the SWT network will form part of CrossRail 2, so that'll have to leave, however is that already in the franchise agreement?

Is it being to forward to suggest adding Chiltern to the Great Western franchise? I think its similar enough, and small enough to add.

 

[AverageTD]

Considering Chiltern don't run any services to Paddington.

Have you heard of the 11:36 to West Ruislip? (now the 11:35 to High Wycombe) Not really related to the thread but still quite interesting

 

[swt_passenger]

Have you heard of the 11:36 to West Ruislip? (now the 11:35 to High Wycombe) Not really related to the thread but still quite interesting

I’ve also heard of it, but it seems unlikely to survive once HS2 get going on the rail corridor alterations. Of course HS2’s impact would also affect the practicalities of Chiltern taking over the Greenford route. I wonder if DfT have even thought of that as a conflict...

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I'd argue that once HS2 is up and running, WCML and LNWR section of WM, should form one large franchise, with some of the suburban services going to LO... I don't know what will happen with the branches in that idea though. I think it would be a bit like a Chiltern franchise... Commuter based, with some fast mainline operations.

I'd also bring the Scot Sleepers back into Scotrail, with brand independence.

Obviously some of the SWT network will form part of CrossRail 2, so that'll have to leave, however is that already in the franchise agreement?

Is it being to forward to suggest adding Chiltern to the Great Western franchise? I think its similar enough, and small enough to add.

Chiltern and Great Western will remain separate for the foreseeable future. In the long term, Chiltern may use Old Oak Common as a secondary terminus for Mainline services to Birmingham Snow Hill and Oxford to relieve pressure off Marylebone and provide additional services.

Crossrail 2 will open in 2033 and SW Franchise runs out in 2024, i think.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I would agree that London Northwestern Railway services would end up being merged with West Coast as I can see the logic in that. I can also see Graylings suggestion in merging GN services out of Kings Cross (what remains of it) with LNER. This could be an interesting combination.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If Northern gets split into new North Western and North Eastern franchises, it'll be interesting to see what the possible TOC names so anything called "North Western" could clash with London Northwestern Railway, the open access Blackpool operator GNWR and "North Eastern" with LNER.

A North Western TOC could be named something like "Cumberland & Lancashire Railway" while "Northumberland & Yorkshire Railway" for North Eastern?

TPE itself could also get broken up and become the intercity services of both the North Western and North Eastern franchises.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The Southern franchise seems like a small one as it was decided to merge it with Thameslink & Great Northern, however it, along with SWR, has a huge suburban London commuter network.

As with rumours and possibilities going around with potential LO, Crossrail & Thameslink expansions that it is quite possible for some SWR & Southern commuter services to be eventually transferred over to TfL or Thameslink.

If this becomes reality then the Southern franchise would get much smaller so would it make sense if the western half, including Victoria and Coastway West services, go to SWR and the eastern half, including London Bridge and Coastway East services go to Southeastern (soon to be SER), the Milton Keynes service to Thameslink?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Southern franchise seems like a small one as it was decided to merge it with Thameslink & Great Northern, however it, along with SWR, has a huge suburban London commuter network.

As with rumours and possibilities going around with potential LO, Crossrail & Thameslink expansions that it is quite possible for some SWR & Southern commuter services to be transferred over to TfL or Thameslink.

If this becomes reality then the Southern franchise would get much smaller so would it make sense if the western half, including Victoria and Coastway West services, go to SWR and the eastern half, including London Bridge and Coastway East services go to Southeastern (soon to be SER), the Milton Keynes service to Thameslink?

I think it more likely that if anything happened post TSGN they’d just combine Southern and Southeastern, as that would fit with Network Rail having combined management of those two “routes” already a few years ago. Southern and Southeastern are far more overlapping in terms of track nearer London, in a far more integrated way than Southern and Southwestern are.

 

[Hadders]

I think GTR will split as follows:

- GN inners to TfL
- Southern a separate franchise
- The rest (basically the old FCC rump)

The Cambridge fasts and Kings Lynn services could go to LNER but on balance I’m not in favour of this. At times ofndisruption the Cambridge services are better under one operator, thinking of the need to insert additional stops into the fasts etc. This is better done with one operator in control.

Also, it will just cause more fares complication. There are already Any Permitted and GA only tickets from Cambridge. Add LNER only (probably only pennies cheaper then the Any Permitted) and ask yourself if this is really desirable.

 

[notlob.divad]

In the future, it is likely some franchises will be redesigned or split for example Govia Thameslink (Thameslink, Southern Great Northern Franchise). This will likely happen within the next decade. The franchises likely to get changes are:

• Northern: It has been suggested by MPS whether it is time to split Northern up due to the delays caused by the new timetable

Re: Northern. The current franchise required the setting up of 4 business regions within the Northern franchise. These being:

• Central - Based in Manchester.
• East - Based in Leeds.
• North East - Based in Newcastle.
• West - Based in Preston (interestingly not Liverpool)

Combining this with the incoming Northern connect branding, and the regionalisation / city regions / devolution that the government was promoting (until brexit took over). I could see the following happening:

The city regions taking over control of their own suburban services, under a similar model to Merseytravel / Merseyrail. Merseytravel would have the City line services and stations handed fully into it's re-mit as far as Wigan, Newton-Le-Willows and Widnes. With extension of the existing Merseyrail through to Helsby (battery technology providing).

Everything else would then break down into the sub regions above, with the local city region's PTE expected to manage the local stations and gaining the power to franchise their local services in the way they see fit. The East region is likely to be split a bit more than everything based in Leeds, but it would have depended upon how city region negotiations went on that side of the pennines.

This is all excepting the Northern Connect brand, which would remain as a pan-North franchise, either competing with or rolled into TPE.

Now whether any of this happens since the 2016 change in government and everything apart from the dreaded B-word being put on the back-burner. I don't know, but it is interesting to me that the breakdown of the areas and locations of the business units, (at least west of the Pennines) closely resembles the City regions and how I would have expceccted public transport to look once they gained their full de-centralised powers.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

From a customer service point of view smaller franchises deliver better service traditionally and thr government said they would be in favour of smaller more local franchises. I cannot see anything wrong with Southern and GX being a smaller franchise and would rather it was kept separate instead of merged with SWR or Southeastern from an operational perspective .The metro routes should go to TfL however I think the reason this is not easy is more logistical such as lack of depot space away from Selhurst and turn around stations. TfL have said they do not wish to run services to Caterham, Tattenham Corner and Coulsdon Town where at present some Southern Metro services turn. And they also do not want to ideally go via East Croydon

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

A Northern split has been suggested to create a Furness/Cumbrian Franchise which could mean:

Cumbrian Franchise

• Furness Line
• Windermere Line
• Cumbrian Coast Line

But should:

• Northern Connect transferred to TransPennine Express Franchise

OR

• Creation of a Separate Franchise

Other Services around the North West could see:

• Creation of a separate North Western Franchise (Central and West Businesses)

Services around the Eastern area of the North could be transferred to a new North Eastern Franchise (North East and East Business)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

From a customer service point of view smaller franchises deliver better service traditionally and thr government said they would be in favour of smaller more local franchises. I cannot see anything wrong with Southern and GX being a smaller franchise and would rather it was kept separate instead of merged with SWR or Southeastern from an operational perspective .The metro routes should go to TfL however I think the reason this is not easy is more logistical such as lack of depot space away from Selhurst and turn around stations. TfL have said they do not wish to run services to Caterham, Tattenham Corner and Coulsdon Town where at present some Southern Metro services turn. And they also do not want to ideally go via East Croydon

I see your point on a Southern Split but that surely would be difficult. I would be in favour of a split and I am not in favour of a merge with any other operator. TfL should run the ‘Metro’ services within Greater London and I think the Government last year confirmed some services could be transferred to TfL.

A Southern Split could look like this (Using: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_(Govia_Thameslink_Railway)#Routes )

• TfL should run Metro and West London services
• Creation of a new ‘Coastway Franchise’ which would be formed of Coastway West and Coastway East services
• The Remainder would be split into a ‘Southern Main Line Franchise’ (Gatwick Express, Brighton Main Line, MainLine West, MainLine East, Redhill and Oxted)

Should Redhill and Oxted form a separate franchise as well (i.e an Oxted Franchise)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I disagree entirely with Metro services being split off and run by one company; and disagree with the smaller franchises. Big franchises can mean shared resources (crew and stock) and therefore be far more efficient to run. It’s already been mentioned about the Cambridge line with the ability to stop Kings Lynn services additionally at Royston and Letchworth purely to pick up the slack during times of service chaos.

TfL inherited some routes for LO that made sense because nobody wanted them:
- The North London Lines because they had dedicated crew and stock and went from nowhere to nowhere
- West Anglia inners because all the drivers were based at Chingford which means they can now use a uniform stock when the 710s are delivered
- The ELL but that was theirs anyway and they decided to improve it. Taking over the South London Line was fine because nobody wanted it, and doing the majority of slow services via New Cross Gate was equally acceptable.

The only sensible options left to them now are:
- Moorgate to Welwyn and Hertford (perfectly good suggestion and will have it’s own stock for the job so no issues there)
- A few additions in West Anglia (Meridian Water, Hertford East)
- Clapham Junction to Watford Junction or maybe Milton Keynes (if they really want it)

Everything else wouldn’t work as well as a good franchise spec telling the incumbent company to raise to London Overground standards which is all that is needed.

As for cities like Manchester: this wouldn’t work either. Due to the smaller size of Manchester set against the size of the area in which the trains operate, you’d struggle massively.

 

[NorthKent1989]

In an ideal world, smaller franchises would be much better, during the early stages of privatisation this was considered, so we might possibly have seen the London - Dartford - Medway routes being its own franchise, but with all the train stock interwoven together it would have been impossible to operate.

Interesting that TfL don’t want the routes via East Croydon.

 

[si404]

West - Based in Preston (interestingly not Liverpool)

Preston is more central for that area, which covers the whole coast from Ellesmere Port to Carlisle.

A Northern split has been suggested to create a Furness/Cumbrian Franchise which could mean:

Cumbrian Franchise

• Furness Line
• Windermere Line
• Cumbrian Coast Line

I think you ought to be able to throw in the Morecambe branch, and Leeds-Lancaster/Carlisle in there too as, while it interacts with the Aire Valley line, the rolling stock is all different and there's little reason to keep that line just one operator for electric metro services and diesel rural services. Furness and Windermere are planned to be Connect services (every other one, or train split?) to Manchester Airport via Wigan. Do you just have 'Cumbria Connect' as a sub-brand of a North NW franchise, or do you put those lines in a Northern Connect franchise?
The easiest bit to take off Northern into its own franchise is the North East one (Tyne Valley, Tees Valley, Esk Valley, Durham Coast, etc), with its single interface with everything else at Carlisle. The rest is more tricky as there's more interactions to ease apart.

 

[Agent_Squash]

I see your point on a Southern Split but that surely would be difficult. I would be in favour of a split and I am not in favour of a merge with any other operator. TfL should run the ‘Metro’ services within Greater London and I think the Government last year confirmed some services could be transferred to TfL.

A Southern Split could look like this (Using: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_(Govia_Thameslink_Railway)#Routes )

• TfL should run Metro and West London services
• Creation of a new ‘Coastway Franchise’ which would be formed of Coastway West and Coastway East services
• The Remainder would be split into a ‘Southern Main Line Franchise’ (Gatwick Express, Brighton Main Line, MainLine West, MainLine East, Redhill and Oxted)

Should Redhill and Oxted form a separate franchise as well (i.e an Oxted Franchise)

This level of split would just create chaos. There is large amounts of interworking between the Coastway and Mainline.

Redhill and Oxted would make the issue work - considering it is literally BML routes that stop at Redhill.

 

[geoffk]

Apart from splitting up GoVia Thameslink, which is too unwieldy, and transferring Kings Cross - Kings Lynn to LNER, I would say stop tinkering with franchises. I certainly don't favour splitting up Northern despite its current problems. Individual services on the edge of a franchise area could though be moved as the opportunity arises (as is due to happen with the Barton-on-Humber branch). I always thought Sheffield - Lincoln/Cleethorpes might have been better going to EMT.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

This level of split would just create chaos. There is large amounts of interworking between the Coastway and Mainline.

Redhill and Oxted would make the issue work - considering it is literally BML routes that stop at Redhill.

So is it best to Split GTR as Southern Franchise, Thameslink Franchise and of course GN going to LNER and TfL as I originally suggested?

 

[eisenach]

How about one integrated franchise for the London based commuter services. I don't know, you could call it something like Network Southeast.

It seems as though the whole mainline express offering could do with being more linked up with each other, allowing the regions to do their own thing, locally organised to serve the real needs on the ground, a bit like London. The express network could be called something like InterCity.

I'll get my coat.

 

[route:oxford]

After them daft and pointless electronic boards were installed at every station

As I stood on the station platform on 31st December last year, waiting for my train to Edinburgh Park for the connection to Edinburgh Airport, it was reassuring to see the electronic boards confirming that the Sleeper would be running that evening as usual, despite the general shut-down, if there was issues with my flight.