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Should there be a new terminal in Liverpool?

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Jorge Da Silva

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How is Liverpool poorly connected? It has a line in from the Wirral and a half radial network which many other cities would kill for. With regards to the north wales coast line what is more vital to Liverpool itself? Having a good suburban railway that links right to the heart of the city with little interference from the rest of the city or mixing it with longer distance trains to North Wales, or are you suggesting boring a large tunnel across both the Dee and the Mersey to access the North Wales area?

People in North Wales who want to go shopping somewhere will just as likely go to Chester as Liverpool.

And it may well be a straight line from London to Liverpool through Birmingham, unfortunately if you keep going on that line, there is nowhere to go but sea. North Wales connections are better from Crewe due to geography, Scotland trains are never going to logically go via Liverpool so I dont really know what point you are trying to make.


This document says so https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/Site Documents/LCR LTRS_Strategy Summary_01_08_14_Final Issue (6)_MTravel.pdf

Basically compared to other areas of a similar size it is poorly served. It is not on the CrossCountry Network and there is no direct link to North Wales, Cardiff, Newport, Derby, Leicester, Doncaster, Bristol or Brighton. This is mainly down to the lack of space at Lime Street for new services to be added and which is why a new terminal is need. New platforms would require extra land which is very expensive and possibly better to just build a new terminal.

Also Wales could be connected via Runcorn and Chester as planned by TfW.
 
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Bletchleyite

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FWIW I agree the Runcorn bridges should not be tolled (ideally no bridges should be tolled other than as part of an overall road pricing scheme to replace fuel tax). But that's more of disadvantage to the development of the Halton area and some parts of North Wales than it is to Liverpool itself.
 

Bletchleyite

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Basically compared to other areas of a similar size it is poorly served. It is not on the CrossCountry Network and there is no direct link to North Wales, Cardiff

Take Merseyrail to Chester. When I was a local I never found this a problem - indeed as there isn't that much residential in central Liverpool the change is of minor consequence as you'd change at central Liverpool anyway.


So?

Derby, Leicester, Doncaster

One change to all of those.


Possibly the only consequential one but again only one change at New St. I don't find breaking up a long journey like that for a walk around and provisions unpleasant at all, personally. Indeed, I often choose to do this anyway when on a walk-up; half an hour at an intermediate station is quite pleasant.


Inconsequential. Why is a direct connection needed to London-on-Sea? How many Scousers actually go on holiday there rather than a much nearer seaside location, of which the North and Wales have many?

Brighton is a lovely place, but I fail to see any need for a direct Liverpool service. If it's about the traditional holding of Party conferences there, that's what, once a year? Run specials or charters.

Also Wales could be connected via Runcorn and Chester as planned by TfW.

In the long term when all the CAF stock is there I'd bet there will be an hourly direct Llandudno or Bangor service, probably the former. But many will still change at Chester.
 

Camden

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Glasgow, Edinburgh and Cardiff are currently entirely absent. The London frequency is inadequate versus the passenger numbers, when compared to other locations. The Birmingham service is seriously slow, as is the service across to Nottingham and East Anglia.

You can get to anywhere with a change, but it is indisputable that a city region the size of Liverpool does not have comparable number, quality or frequency of links as its peers.

The three in my first sentence will be added at some point, but in a wholly superficial way. Glasgow just three times daily. Edinburgh simply by extending a Newcastle service, journey time probably over four hours. Cardiff, just a local service via Wrexham. Birmingham will have no change, and neither will London.

HS2, if it arrives, provides an additional service to London. It's notable how massively outpaced HS2 figures have been for this location, and their latest nonsense about having a 400 metre train de-couple at Crewe shows they know this. Hopefully I'll still be alive then to delight in the political fallout when the **** hits the fan on that one! HS2 isn't offering any new connections.

So there really is nothing in the pipeline at the moment, unless something radically changes to bring that in. The connections the city has today are woeful for its size and location, let alone versus 20 years time.
 

yoyothehobo

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But where would you build a new terminal in Liverpool that you could then build approach lines to that would be accessible from the city centre, connect easily with merseyrail etc.

Its all well and good asking for a new terminal however where do you put it, if you cant extend the station in the city centre location.

Is there a large untapped demand for services to those destinations (other than North Wales) that is severely restricted by having to make a single change? The massive Liverpool to Brighton demand?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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But where would you build a new terminal in Liverpool that you could then build approach lines to that would be accessible from the city centre, connect easily with merseyrail etc.

Its all well and good asking for a new terminal however where do you put it, if you cant extend the station in the city centre location.

Liverpool Exchange???!!!
or Underground??? At Central (maybe)

Although I know it would be expensive but what’s the alternative???
 

yoyothehobo

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Because it is a silly suggestion. Because why is it at all relevant to be able to get a direct service to Brighton from Liverpool, you may as well ask for a direct service to Thurso. Silly suggestions deserve silly answers.
 

yoyothehobo

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Both Liverpool Exchange and Central would require basically tearing up Merseyrail to make them work. Merseyrail, probably the best thing about Liverpools transport network.
 

Bletchleyite

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What's your problem? If you're opposed, you could always just stay out of it rather than throwing sarcasm about.

While the sarcasm may have been uncalled for, the lack of a Liverpool to Brighton direct service is really neither here nor there as there really is next to no demand, and anyone who really wants to go to Brighton can change. If you were going to give it an XC back, Bristol would be much more justified.

The primary travel demand to/from Brighton is to/from London and the South East, which is precisely the service it has. Crikey, it doesn't have *any* XC any more!
 

Jorge Da Silva

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I have recently heard that their could be a new terminal in Liverpool under the existing station which would likely come in mostly in tunnel and provide a new underground station under Lime Street.

It would be expensive but any alternative would also be expensive so its probably the best option. No plans have been finalised or any route has not been revealed. Business case will be revealed by the end of 2018

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/must-new-21-minute-underground-15041648
 

AndrewE

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...the lack of a Liverpool to Brighton direct service is really neither here nor there as there really is next to no demand, and anyone who really wants to go to Brighton can change. If you were going to give it an XC back, Bristol would be much more justified.

The primary travel demand to/from Brighton is to/from London and the South East, which is precisely the service it has. Crikey, it doesn't have *any* XC any more!
...other than every single one of the London to Brighton trains, of course! (PS Sorry, I read XC as IC.)
I would love to see the Liverpool Bristols again. (which double-entendre reminds me, I only ever got flashed once and that was by a hen party in Glasgow, but that's another story - definitely OT!)
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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...other than every single one of the London to Brighton trains, of course!
I would love to see the Liverpool Bristols again. (which double-entendre reminds me, I only ever got flashed once and that was by a hen party in Glasgow, but that's another story - definitely OT!)

Liverpool has been mentioned in the CrossCountry Franchise Consultation which could see it as a new destination for services as well as Swansea being added to the CrossCountry Map and Bradford, although just a suggestion as part of plans for the next franchise which is looking at new destinations to go to. Last time Liverpool had services was in 2003.
 

B&I

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Re-visiting this thread, I knew that the Liverpool-deserves-no-more-connections brigade would be along, and I wasn't disappointed.

The fact remains that the whole situation can be easily solved by putting local services underground and properlty rejigging Lime Street. Those asking where a new terminal could go are being obtuse, I assume deliberately so
 
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geoffk

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My thinking was that if the inner-suburban services currently classed as Merseytravel's City Line were to be joined onto the Ormskirk and Kirkby services via Wapping tunnel, the remaining services into Lime Street could then be sped up by not having to call anywhere further in than South Parkway or Huyton. The inner-suburban stations (Edge Hill, Wavertree, West Allerton et al) would become Merseyrail stations for the most part.
I've read the feasibility study and it seems a great idea to reopen the Wapping Tunnel as part of a link between Central and Edge Hill, but are any of the services currently running into Lime Street really suitable for diversion over this route? One of Merseyrail's advantages is that it's self-contained. Services via South Parkway are either diesel or long distance services to Birmingham and London. Reaching the Chat Moss line will require a flyover at Edge Hill. Only the Wigan and Warrington stoppers might be suitable and that's three per hour. Alternatively you could run Merseyrail trains from Kirkby or Ormskirk on the already-electrified slow lines to South Parkway and take over the stops at Mossley Hill and West Allerton from Northern, with a new station at Wavertree - but this idea doesn't offer any relief at Lime Street.
 
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Jorge Da Silva

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A great idea to reopen the Wapping Tunnel as part of a link between Central and Edge Hill, but are any of the services currently running into Lime Street really suitable for diversion over this route? One of Merseyrail's advantages is that it's self-contained. Services via South Parkway are either diesel or long distance services to Birmingham and London. Reaching the Chat Moss line will require a flyover at Edge Hill. Only the Wigan and Warrington stoppers might be suitable and that's three per hour. Alternatively you could run Merseyrail trains on the slow lines to South Parkway and take over the stops at Mossley Hill and West Allerton from Northern but this idea doesn't offer any relief at Lime Street.

You have a point. Any other solution??
 

Ianno87

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You have a point. Any other solution??

Solution to what problem? Decluttering Lime Street?

Surely the best long long term solution is a new high speed route into Central Liverpool, thus leaving Lime Street for local and regional services only?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Solution to what problem? Decluttering Lime Street?

Surely the best long long term solution is a new high speed route into Central Liverpool, thus leaving Lime Street for local and regional services only?

Where would that go? The
Mayor seems to say NPR would go under Lime Street to a new Underground station where it would terminate.
 

Ianno87

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Where would that go? The
Mayor seems to say NPR would go under Lime Street to a new Underground station where it would terminate.

Don't know - not an engineer. But if sites can be found for new/expanded high speed terminals in London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, doesn't seem unreasonable for a suitable site to be available in Liverpool to similar criteria too...
 

Mutant Lemming

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Re-building and re-opening Woodside would be a far cheaper option. Euston - Chester services could be extended to provide the additional London capacity, much quicker through services to North Wales could be provided rather than via the circuitous Halton curve route, along with alternative services to the Midlands and South-West via Wrexham and Shrewsbury. Woodside being so close to Hamilton Square virtually has the same connectivity to Merseyrail that LIme Street has. Admittedly it wouldn't provide much additional space for North and East bound traffic but a lot of the required route is still there to enable it to be done relatively cheaply as opposed to some mammoth tunnelling projects below the city streets.
 

deltic08

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Slightly off topic but are Chat Moss services from Manchester running in to Lime Street at the moment? I have to go to Liverpool from Halifax next week and back on Sunday 23rd and heard that Lime Street has a blockade. Is this correct?
 
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8H

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Re-building and re-opening Woodside would be a far cheaper option. Euston - Chester services could be extended to provide the additional London capacity, much quicker through services to North Wales could be provided rather than via the circuitous Halton curve route, along with alternative services to the Midlands and South-West via Wrexham and Shrewsbury. Woodside being so close to Hamilton Square virtually has the same connectivity to Merseyrail that LIme Street has. Admittedly it wouldn't provide much additional space for North and East bound traffic but a lot of the required route is still there to enable it to be done relatively cheaply as opposed to some mammoth tunnelling projects below the city streets.

Quite right to argue for this. A Birkenhead terminal station would indeed serve the “city region” just as well to Chester Wales N & S and to Shropshire, especially given the likely easy connectivity to Wirral underground services to the other side of the water. Another plus is the hundreds of thousands of people that live on the peninsular that have simply been expected to go Liverpool to travel by rail anywhere further than Chester since March 1967. Restoring four tracks to Hooton should provide space for stoppers and fasts.

It would also provide the only realistically fast route to Chester and North Wales to stimulate modal shift off the clogged roads. There is sadly plenty of land in central Birkenhead presently due to its decline and a new site if not Woodside should be relatively easy to find. A restored four track Rock Ferry might be a provisional terminus.

As it stands, having simply a twin “tram track” between Birkenhead and Chester provides a good local stopping service but misses every other stark staring opportunity for rail in the locality and wider region.
 

geoffk

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Extension from South Parkway to JL airport?
What about the disused LOR tunnel and station at Dingle? How much of a climb is it up from the CLC line at Brunswick? A possible terminus for trains from Kirkby or Ormskirk. But this thread is really about accommodating long-distance services.
 

AndrewE

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I've read the feasibility study and it seems a great idea to reopen the Wapping Tunnel as part of a link between Central and Edge Hill, but are any of the services currently running into Lime Street really suitable for diversion over this route?
Yes. Make the Birmingham trains into real inter-regional semi-fasts, and make the Crewe stoppers a better but separate service, running to somewhere useful at the north end, maybe Southport. It might need extra capacity putting back in on the WCML proper though (the old discontinuous goods lines north of Crewe, maybe even quadruple the stations at Winsford and Hartford too.)
Are there any class 313s going spare? (Joke - I know a) they are already very old and b) that the tunnelled connection hasn't even been started yet!)
 
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driver_m

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What about the disused LOR tunnel and station at Dingle? How much of a climb is it up from the CLC line at Brunswick? A possible terminus for trains from Kirkby or Ormskirk. But this thread is really about accommodating long-distance services.

It started to collapse some time ago. So no chance of that. Two most obvious ways in to Liverpool are the old Central or Exchange station areas. Trackbeds are mostly.still there, only partially developed as opposed to fully obliterated and the two tunnels out of Liverpool that are both disused are in good condition. Nothing else is really viable in my opinion. The Birkenhead ideas are pointless too. Like being dropped off at Salford Cresent when you want Manchester, or Smethwick Galton Bridge when you want Birmingham.
 

8H

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It started to collapse some time ago. So no chance of that. Two most obvious ways in to Liverpool are the old Central or Exchange station areas. Trackbeds are mostly.still there, only partially developed as opposed to fully obliterated and the two tunnels out of Liverpool that are both disused are in good condition. Nothing else is really viable in my opinion. The Birkenhead ideas are pointless too. Like being dropped off at Salford Cresent when you want Manchester, or Smethwick Galton Bridge when you want Birmingham.

No different passengers arriving in Birkenhead instead of Slime Street to passengers arriving in Paddington instead of Euston.You have also ignored the probably quicker overall journey times to central Liverpool from Wales and other areas despite changing to underground. Paddington to Birkenhead trains were pretty nippy between Chester and Birkenhead compared to todays crawling journey. Also fail to see why the large population of Wirral rail users present and potential have to cross the water to go anywhere long distance by train in perpetuity.
 

Bevan Price

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Some interesting comments and suggestions - but there are problems & consequences if some of the suggestions were implemented.

So - just my opinions.

1. Lime Street site (at surface level) is almost impossible to enlarge to take full length HS2 trains. It will only be able to accept shorter length "classic compatible trains". An 11 coach Pendolino is about the longest train it will ever be able to accept.

2. Central High Level was too short to accept even something like a 9 coach Pendolino.

3. Exchange site is still largely useable (if you spend enough money), but any new line would almost immediately need a long tunnel to exit from the city central region. The frequency of local services on the Southport, Ormskirk or Kirkby lines is such that none of them will ever be suitable for fast, long-distance trains. 4-tracking as far as Ormskirk or Kirkby would also be very difficult & expensive.

So - if full length HS2 trains are ever to come to Liverpool, a completely new station - probably underground - is almost the only solution.

Station capacity. Yes, given enough money, Wapping Tunnel might be reinstated as part of a link from Edge Hill to Central Low Level. But, diverting locals away from Lime Street would lose connectivity with the long distance services to London, Birmingham, etc. - and I suggest that would be very unpopular.

And what would be the benefits for existing passengers - they would get less attractive trains with, probably, fewer seats than a Class 319 or 323 - and then be faced with the already overcrowded Central station. On a simple route network, a single island platform could cope with more trains per hour. But the "City Lines" network is anything but simple. Unlike much of the current Merseyrail Electrics lines, the City lines have complex interactions with other routes. Trying to push many of these extra City Lines trains into Central would wreck punctuality / timekeeping. Widening the tunnel at Central would be hideously expensive, and the entrance / booking hall area would also need to be enlarged. Continue to Moorfields, and you have long walks and 2 long escalators before you reach the exit - in a part of the city that does not seem very welcoming at night.

And what is the demand for linking services across Liverpool city centre ? The most popular destinations would probably be Chester & Birkenhead - but you would still have to change, at Central rather than Lime Street. Next - Southport, but that already crosses the city to/from South Parkway/Hunts Cross. And I doubt that there is much demand for City Lines passengers to travel to/from the Ormskirk /Kirkby lines (except once a year on Grand National Day)

So - a complex problem - with no easily affordable solutions - and a danger of making things worse, not better....
 

Altnabreac

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Thinking of ways to improve access to the wider City Region:

How about electrification from Crewe to Chester allowing an hourly HS2 service there.

As potential dual-voltage stock is introduced on Merseyrail this would let you replace third rail with overhead wires from Chester to Hooton and you could have a large Park and Ride station for the Wirral directly accessed from the M53, with hourly fast HS2 services to London and connecting Merseyrail services for Ellesmere Port and Birkenhead.
 
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