Economic Case for the Far North Line

[70014IronDuke]

Well, yes, that was my point, they don't run away saying its all too difficult.

Not a fair comparison. Running cruise ships is their core business. And the harbour charges - along with the times available for use with the tides - have all been factored into the business case for the harbour and cruise line.

In any case, the train operators and NR wouldn't answer "it's too difficult". They would, however, say it's not economic to set up and invest in the infrastructure, stock and crewing needs to deal with (say) 1,000 cruise passengers descending onto Invergordon Station and needing to be taken to Inverness (or whereever) at all sort of odd hours (in line with tides) just a few weeks of the year.

In fact, they would say its extremely UNeconomic to do so. If, however the cruise companies offered to share those costs, and all the dead time when the crews and stock would be standing unused - I expect they'd jump at the chance.

I already posted the schedule for Invergordon; it is now pretty busy right through the summer. The week ending today, 8 ships, between them carrying 14,000 passengers.

Indeed, I was astonished to learn about these ships docking at Invergordon. I had no idea about this traffic. So what do all the passengers do when in town? How are they transported round and about (by bus, one assumes)? How far away is Invergordon station from the docks? In other words, if there were trains to cope with even a small number of the cruise passengers, is it an easy interchange to the station? (I have been there, but it was 15 years ago, and I can't remember in any detail what was what, or where it was.)

EDIT - sorry, just noticed, you say the railway station is withing walking distance. Although 'walking distance' for a fit person may not be the same as that for 80-year old pensioners.

I brought up the example of Invergordon because it's just one example of a market that surely could be exploited better. I didn't even realise myself until this summer how many ships were coming in now. Yes, the numbers aren't a nice even flow but they are so large that they surely are not to be sniffed at, especially as they embark within walking distance of a train station.

Yes, would be nice to at least tap into it - but as others have pointed out, this is very specialised 'surge' traffic.

 

[GusB]

Indeed, I was astonished to learn about these ships docking at Invergordon. I had no idea about this traffic. So what do all the passengers do when in town? How are they transported round and about (by bus, one assumes)? How far away is Invergordon station from the docks? In other words, if there were trains to cope with even a small number of the cruise passengers, is it an easy interchange to the station? (I have been there, but it was 15 years ago, and I can't remember in any detail what was what, or where it was.)

Lots of coaches are used to transport passengers around, and they come from quite far and wide, too. Have a look at this photo on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94327181@N03/28496307017/in/photostream/ (Photo by Buckielugger)

I'm fortunate enough to have a view over the Moray Firth from the front of the house, and the number of cruise ships passing does seem to have increased considerably over the last few years. They also seem to be getting much bigger.

 

[BRX]

Not a fair comparison. Running cruise ships is their core business. And the harbour charges - along with the times available for use with the tides - have all been factored into the business case for the harbour and cruise line.

In any case, the train operators and NR wouldn't answer "it's too difficult". They would, however, say it's not economic to set up and invest in the infrastructure, stock and crewing needs to deal with (say) 1,000 cruise passengers descending onto Invergordon Station and needing to be taken to Inverness (or whereever) at all sort of odd hours (in line with tides) just a few weeks of the year.

In fact, they would say its extremely UNeconomic to do so. If, however the cruise companies offered to share those costs, and all the dead time when the crews and stock would be standing unused - I expect they'd jump at the chance.



Indeed, I was astonished to learn about these ships docking at Invergordon. I had no idea about this traffic. So what do all the passengers do when in town? How are they transported round and about (by bus, one assumes)? How far away is Invergordon station from the docks? In other words, if there were trains to cope with even a small number of the cruise passengers, is it an easy interchange to the station? (I have been there, but it was 15 years ago, and I can't remember in any detail what was what, or where it was.



Yes, would be nice to at least tap into it - but as others have pointed out, this is very specialised 'surge' traffic.

I think my comparison with the cruise operators has been misunderstood. I was a response to the idea that things like timetabling and stock are a 'nightmare' for the railway to organise - but organising these things is within the core business of the railway - it's what it does - just like organising port calls and co-ordinating with tides and so on are in the core business of what a cruise company does.

As I understand it passengers embark right in town, and the station is within walking distance. If you look at various cruise review sites, the station is mentioned as being accessible, but with a sparse service. The way I'd look at it would be: if it were a less sparse service, would it then be much better used by cruise passengers? And could this help to support a better service for locals?

Amongst local destinations suggested are Beauly, Inverness, Dunrobin castle, and the Strathspey railway. All of these are potentially accessible by rail.


https://www.cruisescotland.com/invergordon

 

[6Gman]

Sorry but there is nothing modern about the Kyle line. It's 1980S at best and very little has changed since then .

What I meant by "the modern railway" was not the infrastructure of the route, but the provision of resources. I can remember visiting Inverness when there were locos and rolling stock standing around spare. Indeed it was a local holiday when we visited and they could rustle up a 26 and half a dozen Mk Is to provide a relief service to Aberdeen! These days we are working with minimal spare capacity whether it's rolling stock or traincrew.

I worked on the charter train section for some time. It could be ... challenging! Doing it between Invergordon and Kyle would be hugely difficult and expensive. If it was practical wouldn't West Coast Rail (or similar) be looking to do it?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think my comparison with the cruise operators has been misunderstood. I was a response to the idea that things like timetabling and stock are a 'nightmare' for the railway to organise - but organising these things is within the core business of the railway - it's what it does - just like organising port calls and co-ordinating with tides and so on are in the core business of what a cruise company does.

I disagree in the context of this example. The railway (at least the modern one) does not invest in track, signalling, stock and crews to serve 3,000 for 65 days per year when for the other 300 days it attracts 75-80 pax. (That's the current level at Invergordon.)

Especially not when the 'surge' journies are mostlyi piddly little trips to eg Beauly and Inverness.

As I understand it passengers embark right in town, and the station is within walking distance. If you look at various cruise review sites, the station is mentioned as being accessible, but with a sparse service. The way I'd look at it would be: if it were a less sparse service, would it then be much better used by cruise passengers? And could this help to support a better service for locals?

I would guess yes - to a limited extent. BUT, even if Invergordon had regular traffic demand -and infrastructure in place - to support an hourly clock-face 2-car DMU to/from Inverness, that would still be totally inadequate for 1,500 cruise passengers suddenly turning up for a trip to there or Beauly or wherever.

Amongst local destinations suggested are Beauly, Inverness, Dunrobin castle, and the Strathspey railway. All of these are potentially accessible by rail.


https://www.cruisescotland.com/invergordon

I'm sure that with improved services at Invergordon some (more?) cruise visitors could be tempted onto rail. But I suspect the vast majority would prefer the coach, because (again, I suspect, I've never been on any such cruise) the vast majority of such passengers are pretty risk averse and rather like to have their hands held. Especially those who are not British, and even more so those who don't speak English as their native tongue.

For these people getting onto a dedicated coach, probably with knowledgeable driver who gives them the relevant spiel, and then guarantees to get them back in time (if the cruise ship is departing) is far preferrable to battling with strange rail timetables to work out the right services to a place they don't know, and where they might have to ask strangers for directions to the local attractions. * For many of us in here, I suspect that's all part of the adventure - for me it is, certainly - but I know it's not to the liking of many. Hence the huge organised tour market.

* And this is not factoring in the unreliability of the service. Granted it seems better of late, but give most potential passengers a hint that the trains might risk sudden cancellation, or a delay of an hour or two. and most strangers will just run a mile.

 

[BRX]

In fact the Royal Scotsman already does a run from Invergordon to Kyle of Lochalsh:

https://www.luxury-trains.co.uk/royal_scotsman/heritage-homes.htm

Yes, that doesn't necessarily mean that it would also be possible to work out a run at times that would suit cruise arrivals and getting back in time. But surely it suggests it shouldn't be instantly ruled out as impractical?

 

[Maxfly]

Iirc running a steam service from Inverness to Kyle was looked at but fitting the service in amongst the timetabled services meant no acceptable journey could be made and so it was dropped. Again its down to the lack of and dated infrastructure in the main.
Though if it did start running would it possibly have a negative effect on the Strathspey railway?

 

[6Gman]

In fact the Royal Scotsman already does a run from Invergordon to Kyle of Lochalsh:

https://www.luxury-trains.co.uk/royal_scotsman/heritage-homes.htm

Yes, that doesn't necessarily mean that it would also be possible to work out a run at times that would suit cruise arrivals and getting back in time. But surely it suggests it shouldn't be instantly ruled out as impractical?

But it does Invergordon - Kyle as a single journey (not out and back in a day) as part of a lengthy itinerary.

Which is completely different from a freestanding out and back.

 

[6Gman]

Just had a closer look at the cruise schedule and it's clear any provision would have to be "bespoke" for each call. In August, for example, there are 9 different arrival times and 8 different departure times. Length of time ashore varies between 6.5hrs and 11.5hrs. The capacity of the ships varies from 212 to 4,500! Based on the journey time of the Jacobite Invergordon/Inverness - Kyle would be close to 4hrs each way which doesn't leave much time to enjoy the views of Skye!

Nightmare!

 

[philthetube]

Just had a closer look at the cruise schedule and it's clear any provision would have to be "bespoke" for each call. In August, for example, there are 9 different arrival times and 8 different departure times. Length of time ashore varies between 6.5hrs and 11.5hrs. The capacity of the ships varies from 212 to 4,500! Based on the journey time of the Jacobite Invergordon/Inverness - Kyle would be close to 4hrs each way which doesn't leave much time to enjoy the views of Skye!

Nightmare!

Cruise lines will to a large extent vary length of stay at a port according to many things, their are many variables including:-
Travelling time between ports.
Price of berth compared with fuel costs if extra time spent at sea.
How much there is for passengers to do on shore
How much money is their to be made from tours at the port.

If a cruise line felt that they could fill a steam service at a premium price then they would plan their itinerary accordingly.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm not sure if this has been covered before, forgive me if it hasn't but the construction of the spaceport at the A'Mhoine peninsula presents a possible source of goods traffic to Georgemas Junction goods yard and trucked from then on. If it , in future, became a major passenger spaceport, a dedicated branch could be constructed to the site and the profits from this used to shore up the rest of the FNL, potentially funding the Dornoch link and the Lentran Loop from this windfall.

 

[Highlandspring]

My understanding of the proposed spaceport infrastructure is that it will be more at the large flat area of tarmac and a portacabin end of the scale than the Heathrow Airport but in Sutherland end.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The example I always bring up in these discussions is Switzerland but there are other countries who make a whole lot more out of their scenic lines than we do. I find it a bit pathetic, and it does seem to be driven by an attitude that it's all just too much bother to do anything beyond providing a minimum basic service.

Comparisons with Switzerland (or Austria or Norway) are pointless. As locals we may enjoy extolling the virtues of our scenic areas but in comparison to European mountain areas they are somewhat underwhelming. The UK's highest point is Ben Nevis which is 1,345 metres high. There are cycle races in Europe which go over plenty of mountain passes higher than that, 2,115 metres in the case of the Tourmalet. Our mountain areas are undeniably very pretty but they simply don't have the majestic grandeur that can be found elsewhere. Berninabahn vs Kyle line? There is no comparison. Relatively remote scenic areas here have to have something else to be genuinely attractive to overseas visitors. For Scotland that will tend to mean castles and whisky: very cliched but it works! But a rail system geared to meeting basic social needs of the local population will struggle to provide effective transport for such trips.

 

[BRX]

I disagree. Presented well, the scenery on the west highland or kyle lines is every bit as good as in Switzerland. Mountain height is not the measure of the landscape. I've travelled extensively by rail throughout Europe and scenically ours are up there with the best of them.

 

[AlastairFraser]

My understanding of the proposed spaceport infrastructure is that it will be more at the large flat area of tarmac and a portacabin end of the scale than the Heathrow Airport but in Sutherland end.

Maybe,but I'm talking maybe 20,30 years in the future. And if the spaceport launches frequently, they're going to need a reasonable amount of staff living and potentially commuting from more populous areas further south e.g Inverness and that area,maybe bumping up regular passenger flows a bit, and possibly the satellites themselves being launched could travel for the most part on rail to Georgemas Junction goods yard. Even if it is just a vast area of tarmac, there might be some construction traffic.

 

[6Gman]

Maybe,but I'm talking maybe 20,30 years in the future. And if the spaceport launches frequently, they're going to need a reasonable amount of staff living and potentially commuting from more populous areas further south e.g Inverness and that area,maybe bumping up regular passenger flows a bit, and possibly the satellites themselves being launched could travel for the most part on rail to Georgemas Junction goods yard. Even if it is just a vast area of tarmac, there might be some construction traffic.

At best won't it be a Douneray scenario? Bit of construction traffic in, bit of stuff out, last/first few miles by road?

And commuting from Inverness? I think not.

 

[Tobbes]

Just had a closer look at the cruise schedule and it's clear any provision would have to be "bespoke" for each call. In August, for example, there are 9 different arrival times and 8 different departure times. Length of time ashore varies between 6.5hrs and 11.5hrs. The capacity of the ships varies from 212 to 4,500! Based on the journey time of the Jacobite Invergordon/Inverness - Kyle would be close to 4hrs each way which doesn't leave much time to enjoy the views of Skye!

Nightmare!

It would be, but are we over-complicating it? Dornoch is about 50 miles from Invergordon, and the train ride is quite pretty as you go up the coast and then in around Lairg. What could be interesting would be a (steam?) train one way to Golspie and a coach back (or vice versa), with cruise passengers having a couple of hours in Dornoch to look around or go to the castle.

Railmiles says Golspie is 52m 63 ch from Invergordon, so an hour and half on the train (service trains seem to be 1h 15m - 1h 19m with seven stops), and 2-3 hours in Dornoch and return by coach would be a nice length of day with plenty of time to get back to the ship. Operationally, K1 + 7 Mk 1s, running round at Brora? And how soon will the new V4 be ready?

 

[najaB]

Invergordon to Kyle requires a reversal at Dingwall, is this something that the track layout would allow?

 

[AlastairFraser]

At best won't it be a Douneray scenario? Bit of construction traffic in, bit of stuff out, last/first few miles by road?

And commuting from Inverness? I think not.

On your first point, yes but surely any extra traffic is welcome to maybe allow the Scottish Government to reduce the subsidy somewhat temporarily(I'm assuming they subsidise it). Inverness is a bit far I agree but if a dedicated branch could be built later for the satellites to be transited to the launch site it could also be used to transport staff to the site from an expanded Thurso or maybe Wick, but Thurso is probably more practical.If it ever becomes passenger, then a proper station could be built.

 

[Maxfly]

Invergordon to Kyle requires a reversal at Dingwall, is this something that the track layout would allow?




Yes it would, train arrives in Dingwall UP loop, if not top n tailed driver gets shunt token and takes loco around, couples up and departs towards Kyle from the UP loop passing Down stopboard for the UP loop. Plungers provided there too.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm sure that with improved services at Invergordon some (more?) cruise visitors could be tempted onto rail. But I suspect the vast majority would prefer the coach, because (again, I suspect, I've never been on any such cruise) the vast majority of such passengers are pretty risk averse and rather like to have their hands held. Especially those who are not British, and even more so those who don't speak English as their native tongue.

For these people getting onto a dedicated coach, probably with knowledgeable driver who gives them the relevant spiel, and then guarantees to get them back in time (if the cruise ship is departing) is far preferrable to battling with strange rail timetables to work out the right services to a place they don't know, and where they might have to ask strangers for directions to the local attractions. * For many of us in here, I suspect that's all part of the adventure - for me it is, certainly - but I know it's not to the liking of many. Hence the huge organised tour market.

* And this is not factoring in the unreliability of the service. Granted it seems better of late, but give most potential passengers a hint that the trains might risk sudden cancellation, or a delay of an hour or two. and most strangers will just run a mile.

This is the whole point. Very few passengers on a cruise will want to go off exploring, largely on their own, in a foreign country. Many are probably a bit old for that sort of thing anyway. They will want to have a planned tour around whatever the local sights are, with someone to guide them, answer questions etc. This is always going to be a coach, not a train.

The train idea is nice to believe in, but it's a total non-starter for these cruise liners.

 

[Highlandspring]

Inverness is a bit far I agree but if a dedicated branch could be built later for the satellites to be transited to the launch site it could also be used to transport staff to the site from an expanded Thurso or maybe Wick, but Thurso is probably more practical.

The spaceport will be launching cubesats, which are about the same size as a loaf of bread...

 

[Southsider]

The spaceport will be launching cubesats, which are about the same size as a loaf of bread...

So you’re saying Scotrail won’t get a slice of the action.....?

 

[railjock]

So you’re saying Scotrail won’t get a slice of the action.....?

I think that's plain to see.

 

[squizzler]

Lots of coaches are used to transport passengers around, and they come from quite far and wide, too. Have a look at this photo on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/94327181@N03/28496307017/in/photostream/ (Photo by Buckielugger)

I'm fortunate enough to have a view over the Moray Firth from the front of the house, and the number of cruise ships passing does seem to have increased considerably over the last few years. They also seem to be getting much bigger.

Whilst a bit late to this thread (I don't personally know the Far North Line) I wonder what happened to the "Cruise Saver Express" service that used to run to Southampton? If the economics were a bit marginal to that operation servicing one port, maybe the continued expansion of the cruise market and opportunity of serving extra destinations such as Invergorden would improve stock utilisation and make the whole operation more viable?

Provision of a boat train could only help make the port move viable as an embarkation port rather than simply a stop en route, benefitting the local economy further. This might make a business case for a grant to prepare the ground (i.e. work out the paths, etc) for prospective train operator.

The other reason an entrepreneur might consider a new operation along the lines of "Cruise Saver Express" is that spare HST's will shortly become available and might prove desirable for such a role.

 

[Tobbes]

Whilst a bit late to this thread (I don't personally know the Far North Line) I wonder what happened to the "Cruise Saver Express" service that used to run to Southampton? If the economics were a bit marginal to that operation servicing one port, maybe the continued expansion of the cruise market and opportunity of serving extra destinations such as Invergorden would improve stock utilisation and make the whole operation more viable?

Provision of a boat train could only help make the port move viable as an embarkation port rather than simply a stop en route, benefitting the local economy further. This might make a business case for a grant to prepare the ground (i.e. work out the paths, etc) for prospective train operator.

The other reason an entrepreneur might consider a new operation along the lines of "Cruise Saver Express" is that spare HST's will shortly become available and might prove desirable for such a role.

I think the point here is that Invergordon is a stop on cruiseship's itineraries - it's not a start/end port.

 

[Highland37]

This is the whole point. Very few passengers on a cruise will want to go off exploring, largely on their own, in a foreign country. Many are probably a bit old for that sort of thing anyway. They will want to have a planned tour around whatever the local sights are, with someone to guide them, answer questions etc. This is always going to be a coach, not a train.

The train idea is nice to believe in, but it's a total non-starter for these cruise liners.

To be blunt, you are completely wrong. My friend runs a company which I won't name but it's a "WOW", who do a lot of business out of Invergordon and use coaches. Coaches are very hard to come by in the summer (I rent them out for youth trips). My ex is a tour guide for the Highlands of Scotland Tour Guide Association. I short, I know both from first hand experience and from people who are experts in the area that there is interested in using the railway.

The railway currently is a very poor option for tourists, the worst of those available. There are various reasons for this some of which cant be tackled as they part of the nature of railway travel.

Others can though such as the 158s which are not in any way suited to dealing with tourists looking for a premium product, but not being ripped off. Capital is mobile and people on these trips are already well traveled and familiar with what Norway or Switzerland offers for the tourist, for example. Coaches are often better than a 158, particularly in terms of noise. Mayne's of Buckie have the poshest coaches in the NE for example and do a lot of cruise business.

I really do despair at the "it's not possible" attitude in the railway. If a service cannot be run on a quiet branch line with few other passengers and no freight, there really is no point in keeping the railway open.

Currently these tourists mainly want three things; 1) scenery, 2) Culloden and 3) Loch Ness. They are not that well catered for in the first case as the Black Isle is not a "wow" in any sense but heading west is. Indeed, having a train from Invergordon to Kyle would enable people to visit Skye.

I am not saying it would be a great success and I don't think the sleeper, as someone said above, has any bearing on it (the numbers are so small).

But the attitude on the railway is very far from can-do and certainly not open.

To complete my post, I refer back to the start and note that when my ex tried to get in touch with Scotrail about using the railway she was rebuffed. Same is true of trying to speak to anyone about Inverness Station redevelopment, for example, it's basically impossible to actually have a meaningful conversation with anyone with power.

 

[Tobbes]

To be blunt, you are completely wrong. My friend runs a company which I won't name but it's a "WOW", who do a lot of business out of Invergordon and use coaches. Coaches are very hard to come by in the summer (I rent them out for youth trips). My ex is a tour guide for the Highlands of Scotland Tour Guide Association. I short, I know both from first hand experience and from people who are experts in the area that there is interested in using the railway.

The railway currently is a very poor option for tourists, the worst of those available. There are various reasons for this some of which cant be tackled as they part of the nature of railway travel.

Others can though such as the 158s which are not in any way suited to dealing with tourists looking for a premium product, but not being ripped off. Capital is mobile and people on these trips are already well traveled and familiar with what Norway or Switzerland offers for the tourist, for example. Coaches are often better than a 158, particularly in terms of noise. Mayne's of Buckie have the poshest coaches in the NE for example and do a lot of cruise business.

I really do despair at the "it's not possible" attitude in the railway. If a service cannot be run on a quiet branch line with few other passengers and no freight, there really is no point in keeping the railway open.

Currently these tourists mainly want three things; 1) scenery, 2) Culloden and 3) Loch Ness. They are not that well catered for in the first case as the Black Isle is not a "wow" in any sense but heading west is. Indeed, having a train from Invergordon to Kyle would enable people to visit Skye.

I am not saying it would be a great success and I don't think the sleeper, as someone said above, has any bearing on it (the numbers are so small).

But the attitude on the railway is very far from can-do and certainly not open.

To complete my post, I refer back to the start and note that when my ex tried to get in touch with Scotrail about using the railway she was rebuffed. Same is true of trying to speak to anyone about Inverness Station redevelopment, for example, it's basically impossible to actually have a meaningful conversation with anyone with power.

Excellent post, very interesting. Is there any chance of a coach/premium train combo to Dornoch working from Invergordon?

 

[Highland37]

Thank you. I am not saying that a steam train, Royal Scotsman or Jacobite operation would be a success or not. I don't know and that would need some proper investigation.

I am saying the attitude on the railway is very backward, stuck in the past and with a sense of importance. I run coaches over many months for groups of young people. All over Scotland but mainly in the Highlands. Some companies exhibit a railway-like attitude when it comes to logisitics but they are in the minority.

 

[Tobbes]

Thank you. I am not saying that a steam train, Royal Scotsman or Jacobite operation would be a success or not. I don't know and that would need some proper investigation.

I am saying the attitude on the railway is very backward, stuck in the past and with a sense of importance. I run coaches over many months for groups of young people. All over Scotland but mainly in the Highlands. Some companies exhibit a railway-like attitude when it comes to logisitics but they are in the minority.

Thanks again - sadly, I can well believe it.